Who Does The Father Draw?

[Nancy]

I have no problem at all with good honest charitable discussion, but every believer involved in such needs to always remember as you have the words penned by the apostle Paul:



"For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase." I Cor 3:3-7

Sometimes God will use us to share the truth with someone. Sometimes they will not receive it and may even get angry about it.

That is one situation. Another one is where we insist on sharing but God definitely does not want us going there.

"These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:" Matt 10:5

We always need to be listening to His voice and acting or holding our peace accordingly. God always know what is needed or what should be done. There is a time to be silent as well as a time to speak [Ecc 3:1,7] and He will share with us if we ask and obey:

"But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers." John 10:2-5

Are we His sheep or are we goats?

Good post Amadeus,
Baaa Baaa @Willie T. Posted this on another thread-adorable!
https://video.search.yahoo.com/sear...da1e1d3b361a184b0d3abe8e6c1a4a03&action=click

 

[amadeus]

So then do the sheep have it?

 

[Nancy]

So then do the sheep have it?

Yes indeed! I strive to be among those spoken about in Rev, 21! The sheep have it for sure! Amen!

 

[ScottA]

All humans are elected.

How so?

 

[LC627]

When it comes to election/predestination it is important to know that no one receives injustice. The wages of sin is death, a wage is something you earn. To those whom are saved it is only by God's grace - they don't deserve it.

I bet that everyone here who has prayed for someone's salvation has said at least once, "Lord, change their heart". Why is this? Because deep down we all know that it takes an act of God to have someone saved and there is no room/desire in the human heart for the Gospel of Jesus Christ unless convicted. The world hates God and everything about God.

 

[Dcopymope]

When it comes to election/predestination it is important to know that no one receives injustice. The wages of sin is death, a wage is something you earn. To those whom are saved it is only by God's grace - they don't deserve it.

I bet that everyone here who has prayed for someone's salvation has said at least once, "Lord, change their heart". Why is this? Because deep down we all know that it takes an act of God to have someone saved and there is no room/desire in the human heart for the Gospel of Jesus Christ unless convicted. The world hates God and everything about God.

Is it possible to hate something you never heard of?

 

[GodsGrace]

GodsGrace says:

Stranger, We had been speaking about imputed righteousness and I wanted to send you a couple of links.

I can't remember the post.

It's an interesting read. It's not something I care to discuss too much since what one wants to believe doesn't seem too important to me.

http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/openhse/impute.html

and

http://artkatzministries.org/articles/righteousness-in-the-old-testament/

 

[GodsGrace]

I did look at (John 6:60). And concerning eating His flesh, and drinking His blood, they did say this is a hard saying. But concerning what Christ said in (6:65), "no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father", is when "From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him."

It has always been 'faith' only. Calvin didn't start that, God did. But, understand, our knowledge of the Bible hopefully grows. Does yours? Surely you know more today then when you first got saved. And, do you know everything in the Bible today? The Trinity did not become understood until the first couple of centuries A.D.

Stranger

Please explain, then WHY the disciples went back....
Why would Jesus saying "no man can come unto Me except it were given unto him of My Father" cause them to abandon Jesus?

What do you think they understood by those words?

 

[Stranger]

Please explain, then WHY the disciples went back....
Why would Jesus saying "no man can come unto Me except it were given unto him of My Father" cause them to abandon Jesus?

What do you think they understood by those words?

(John 6:64) is clear that though these followed Christ, they were not believers. Like Judas. And Jesus pretty much was calling them out. He was saying you are following me, but you do not believe. And, you won't believe as the Father has not given you to me.

Those that were not believers knew they were not believers. Christ confronting them was enough for some to cease from following.

Stranger

 

[GodsGrace]

No, God did not 'make me' as if it was against my will. And I have never said that. I have always said our will is involved. And I willingly came to Christ. None of which take away from God choosing you first. Because He did choose you He will reveal Himself to you to the degree of whatever it takes to affect your will. (Ps. 110:3) "Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power...."

To someone like the apostle Paul, It could be said He literally did make him. Knocked him to the ground and blinded him for three days. All Paul could say was, 'who art thou Lord'. Paraphrased: "I don't know who you are but you're Lord whoever you are." And Paul was a 'chosen vessel'. (Acts 9:15-16)

Stranger

I agree about Paul. Mary would be another example and Moses. God chose specific persons for specific tasks.

When you say that God chose us first, do you mean a SPECIFIC person?
If so, what happens to the others that He did NOT choose?

And I hope you understand that Calvin taught that God changes our will so as to make it seem that it is free, when actually it is not. It's called compatible free will,,,it's a very strange concept that belongs to a strange god.

Since that theology believe in a deterministic God, it had to come up with an explanation of the will of man and how it could be free since that it what the bible teaches. If God determines everything, every move we make, then the explanation is that our decisions are not forced on us, as they say, it is not violent, however, God changes our will so that we DESIRE what HE desires and so it SEEMS to us to be making a choice of our own free will when in reality it is God who is making the choice for us.

And following is an idea of the God they serve:

Section 12. Second part of the chapter, which treats of the reprobate. Some of them God deprives of the opportunity of hearing his word. Others he blinds and stupefies the more by the preaching of it.

As the Lord by the efficacy of his calling accomplishes towards his elect the salvation to which he had by his eternal counsel destined them, so he has judgments against the reprobate, by which he executes his counsel concerning them. Those, therefore, whom he has created for dishonor during life and destruction at death, that they may be vessels of wrath and examples of severity, in bringing to their doom, he at one time deprives of the means of hearing his word, at another by the preaching of it blinds and stupefies them the more.

From the Institutes of Calvin 3.24.12

 

[Stranger]

I scanned the articles. The first by Steve Jones was very disappointing. If one rejects God's acts of imputation, then we cannot be saved. I really hate to see someone write an article like that.

As to the second, it seems he holds to imputation, saying at the end that God will impute righteousness to Israel who has no righteousness. He goes into a lot of detail in defining Old Testament righteousness.

Stranger

 

[GodsGrace]

(John 6:64) is clear that though these followed Christ, they were not believers. Like Judas. And Jesus pretty much was calling them out. He was saying you are following me, but you do not believe. And, you won't believe as the Father has not given you to me.

Those that were not believers knew they were not believers. Christ confronting them was enough for some to cease from following.

Stranger

I see your point. It's debatable I guess.
I've always heard that it was because some found it distasteful to hear Jesus speak about being "eaten".

 

[GodsGrace]

I scanned the articles. The first by Steve Jones was very disappointing. If one rejects God's acts of imputation, then we cannot be saved. I really hate to see someone write an article like that.

As to the second, it seems he holds to imputation, saying at the end that God will impute righteousness to Israel who has no righteousness. He goes into a lot of detail in defining Old Testament righteousness.

Stranger

The first article does,however, make sense.
As I've said, I never studied this enough to speak about it.
In a way I see that we are responsible for our actions and how they could make us righteous...then we have Isaiah saying our righteousness is as dirty rags.

I also understand the New Covenant and how Jesus is our mediator...so we are depending on Him for our salvation and we can't be righteous of our own since God is so holy.

I do, however, see a difference between righteousness in the O.T. and in the N.T.
In the O.T. it does seem to me to be more of a personal righteousness instead of an imputed righteousness.

 

[Stranger]

I agree about Paul. Mary would be another example and Moses. God chose specific persons for specific tasks.

When you say that God chose us first, do you mean a SPECIFIC person?
If so, what happens to the others that He did NOT choose?

And I hope you understand that Calvin taught that God changes our will so as to make it seem that it is free, when actually it is not. It's called compatible free will,,,it's a very strange concept that belongs to a strange god.

Since that theology believe in a deterministic God, it had to come up with an explanation of the will of man and how it could be free since that it what the bible teaches. If God determines everything, every move we make, then the explanation is that our decisions are not forced on us, as they say, it is not violent, however, God changes our will so that we DESIRE what HE desires and so it SEEMS to us to be making a choice of our own free will when in reality it is God who is making the choice for us.

And following is an idea of the God they serve:

Section 12. Second part of the chapter, which treats of the reprobate. Some of them God deprives of the opportunity of hearing his word. Others he blinds and stupefies the more by the preaching of it.

As the Lord by the efficacy of his calling accomplishes towards his elect the salvation to which he had by his eternal counsel destined them, so he has judgments against the reprobate, by which he executes his counsel concerning them. Those, therefore, whom he has created for dishonor during life and destruction at death, that they may be vessels of wrath and examples of severity, in bringing to their doom, he at one time deprives of the means of hearing his word, at another by the preaching of it blinds and stupefies them the more.

From the Institutes of Calvin 3.24.12

Yes, I mean a specific person. God knew you and I before He laid the foundations of the world. And so He chose us in Christ. (Eph. 1:4) You and I were always 'of God'. To clarify, lets say the fall never occurred. Adam and Eve continued in a blissful state upon the earth having many children and populating the earth. All those born of them would have been 'of God'. They would have been known by God from eternity past.

But now that the fall has occurred, another seed line is introduced. And many are born of Adam and Eve that are not of God. God does not know them, they are not of Him. God does not choose these. And they do not want to be chosen.

The Cross and the Blood, and the invitation to all is real. Those who have been chosen, who are of God, will respond to the offer of salvation. Those who are not chosen, who are not of God, will reject such an offer. Because the chosen are of God, then God certainly reveals Himself to them having to work through their fallenness, to bring them to the Saviour.

You ask what happens to those not chosen. They go to hell which is prepared for the devil and his angels.

I think we have discussed the 'will' before. I never use the term 'free will' as mans will is not free. Only God has 'free will'. We have a will, and we exercise it. But it is always influenced by outside sources.

Stranger

 

[Mjh29]

A

Um, yes...I think we KNOW that not everybody is saved...many-wide rd. few-narrow rd. I am talking about the I in cal. Irresistible grace-really??? and this is EXACTLY what comes of this bunk---a VERY small group of elitists who look down their noses at others who might be floundering, or has a limited understanding. All Men are called and, I have to be done here before I get heated and I do not want that...I'd rather be on the poetry thread.
peace

Um..... *coughs*... Hi. So, First of all, I would like to sat that, contrary to popular belief, not all Calvinists look down on other people. If anything, calling all Calvinists stuck up and stiff nosed is looking down on them wouldn't you agree. And Secondly, The doctrine of Irresistible Grace speaks of God changing the heart so that we WANT to follow Him, and do! It stems back to the main problem that we don't have free-WILL, we have free agency. Allow me to explain. Lets pretend that you like cherry pie (mmmm.... I love me some cherry pie lol) and hate pecan pie (I... I personally love both but just imagine lol) So, You love cherry pie, but hate pecan, and I put both pies in front of you, and tell you to choose which one you want. Well, you love cherry and hate pecan, so... no brainer. Let's say I do it again. Still, you pick the cherry pie. Why is that? Its because, naturally, you are inclined to love the cherry and hate the pecan. Its the same with us and Salvation. We are given sin and life everlasting, and by natural inclination, we choose sin every time UNLESS Christ by His power mercifully changes our desires, our want to, our WILL, and makes it so that we love Him, and trust Him. We do have Free- AGENCY, which means that we are not puppets on strings, but as far as our wills go, we ARE slaves... to sin. Adam chose sin's rule over God's rule, and ever since we have been ruled by sin. Our natures are inclined to sin, our WILLS, what we want, is inclined to and tainted by sin. But the wonderful news is that Christ Jesus changes hearts! He makes it so that the sinner, who is in love with the sin that is Cherry Pie, sees the beauty in Him and instead casts aside his weight and sins, and pursues Him! And by Irresistible, We simply mean that when Christ Jesus the King wants something accomplished, there is no force that can stand in His way. He never fails, never stops, and Never surrenders until the heart of His chosen sinner is turned to Him, and that sinner willingly bows and accepts Him for who He is.

 

[Stranger]

The first article does,however, make sense.
As I've said, I never studied this enough to speak about it.
In a way I see that we are responsible for our actions and how they could make us righteous...then we have Isaiah saying our righteousness is as dirty rags.

I also understand the New Covenant and how Jesus is our mediator...so we are depending on Him for our salvation and we can't be righteous of our own since God is so holy.

I do, however, see a difference between righteousness in the O.T. and in the N.T.
In the O.T. it does seem to me to be more of a personal righteousness instead of an imputed righteousness.

That first article really grieves me sister. Please study up on 'imputation'.

Man always has a righteousness of his own. Always...both in the Old and New Testament. And our righteousness can appear very good and acceptable by man. But though it is very good, when we stand before God, it is nothing. It literally will appear as filthy rags. Which means we have no hope, unless God covers us in the righteousness of Jesus Christ. Which is why we were 'chosen in Him'. We are covered. This is accomplished by imputation.

Stranger

 

[GodsGrace]

That first article really grieves me sister. Please study up on 'imputation'.

Man always has a righteousness of his own. Always...both in the Old and New Testament. And our righteousness can appear very good and acceptable by man. But though it is very good, when we stand before God, it is nothing. It literally will appear as filthy rags. Which means we have no hope, unless God covers us in the righteousness of Jesus Christ. Which is why we were 'chosen in Him'. We are covered. This is accomplished by imputation.

Stranger

Sorry Stranger, maybe I didn't explain correctly.
I DO believe in imputation of righteousness through Jesus.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Sorry Stranger, maybe I didn't explain correctly.
I DO believe in imputation of righteousness through Jesus.

Sounds like a fancy way to say justified, in order to confuse people and take control over their minds.
Cults are started that way.

 

[Nancy]

Sounds like a fancy way to say justified, in order to confuse people and take control over their minds.
Cults are started that way.

 

[Stranger]

Sorry Stranger, maybe I didn't explain correctly.
I DO believe in imputation of righteousness through Jesus.

Good to hear.

Stranger