Who Does The Father Draw?

[Nancy]

I complain when I am misinterpreted and misrepresented. As Nancy did. I have no problems admitting my theology. I have problems being misrepresented.

Stranger

BTW @Stranger - you never did expound on why you say that I misrepresented you...that would be bearing false witness and I KNOW God does not like that because it is sin so, if you accuse me of misrepresenting you, please explain yourself? Or I could have just missed the reply...dunno.
In Christs Love,
-nancy

 

[Stranger]

BTW @Stranger - you never did expound on why you say that I misrepresented you...that would be bearing false witness and I KNOW God does not like that because it is sin so, if you accuse me of misrepresenting you, please explain yourself? Or I could have just missed the reply...dunno.
In Christs Love,
-nancy

You missed it. You were to be busy playing games with the ....rollo. See reply #199.

Stranger

 

[Nancy]

You missed it. You were to be busy playing games with the ....rollo. See reply #199.

Stranger

Okay, now that you have sent me on a wild goose chase, and sent me from one thread, to another, my question, in defense of myself remains unanswered.

BTW-you can leave Rollo out of it...you sound kinda jealous of him :/

 

[Stranger]

Okay, now that you have sent me on a wild goose chase, and sent me from one thread, to another, my question, in defense of myself remains unanswered.

BTW-you can leave Rollo out of it...you sound kinda jealous of him :/

Why is it a wild goose chase. You asked for further explanation and I gave it. Then you ask why didn't I respond. Which means you were not paying attention cause you and rollo were playing silly games. Your attention was distracted. You can't help it.

Stranger

 

[Nancy]

Why is it a wild goose chase. You asked for further explanation and I gave it. Then you ask why didn't I respond. Which means you were not paying attention cause you and rollo were playing silly games. Your attention was distracted. You can't help it.

Stranger

Well, I never DID get an explanation to begin with so how could I ask for further explanation? Don't point me to post after post when you could, well seemsyou can't, tell me HOW I misrepresented you, in your own words Stranger.

 

[Stranger]

Well, I never DID get an explanation to begin with so how could I ask for further explanation? Don't point me to post after post when you could, well seemsyou can't, tell me HOW I misrepresented you, in your own words Stranger.

If you are not going to pay attention I am not going to keep repeating myself. See again post #199. What is the problem?

Stranger

 

[Nancy]

@Stranger - I stand corrected...you were saying that GodsGrace believes: "You have to keep earning it." My apologies. BTW- GG doesn't believe that

 

[LC627]

"Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, <--- and what is His will? That NONE should perish. The "elect" are the Christians and Predestined is not INDIVIDUAL SELECTION but CORPORATE, meaning Gentiles as well as the Jews. God is no respcetor of persons, and He died for the WHOLE WORLD. How is it that this is not clear?

Not everyone will be saved. Labeling it as corporate is to beat around the bush with it, whether you believe in predestination or not, it is in the Bible. The WHOLE WORLD will not be saved.

 

[LC627]

Romans 9:16 is very clear in stating that it is God's mercy on humankind to have provided a way of escape from hell. Whereas you believe God destines some for hell.

Grace. Mercy and compassion cannot be earned by man. We are saved by grace through faith; through FAITH, not by God's decree on an individual basis.
Ephesians 2:8
Therefore, we cannot work our way to heaven, but it is through God's mercy and compassion through our faith, that leads us to heaven.

Romans 5:18 shows us the love that God has for us in providing us with the FREE GIFT of salvation.
18So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

How is God a God of mercy, as Romans 9:16 states, if He willingly and with no hesitation sends His created humans to hell for no reason at all?

If you do not believe in predestination then you must not believe that God had full foreknowledge of events before He created. Because if you do believe that God knew everything that would happen and still decided to create the world knowing a vast multitude would go to hell, well some would state that not something a God of mercy would do either. Why create knowing that evil would reign on the earth and billions would suffer and go to hell? Either way, there are hard questions that are a mystery to us and we can't fully understand 100% while here on earth.

How do you call Him a God of mercy and then make a monster out of Him.

Jesus came to forgive the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD, not just some.
John 1:29
29The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

 

[LC627]

There is none righteous, no not one.
Not being righteous before God is not the same as being totally depraved.
If we are totally depraved then we would need God to pull us up to some level where He could then save us.

So if God is pulling us up to Him, it means He has to regenerate us FIRST and THEN we can become saved by having the ABILITY to accept Him.

There are so many problems with this.
First of all, one BELIEVES first, and THEN one is saved and regenerated.
When the jailer in acts asks what he must do to be saved, the answer is:
Believe and you will be saved.
Acts 16:31

Faith comes from hearing the word of God. Every man can hear the word of God, not just the elect.
Romans 10:17

Romans 10:9 tells us that we confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in our heart that God raised Him from the dead, and WE WILL BE SAVED.
Not the other way around.

Romans 10:13
WHOEVER calls on the name of the Lord, will be saved.

First we call on the name of the Lord,
First we hear the gospel message,
First we believe
First we confess

And then we are saved.

The dividing line comes to what you believe about mankind's condition. Personally, it is clear that man is evil and comes into the world with a sin nature / separated from God. Mankind (unsaved) are children of the devil soooo you're gonna have a hard time convincing me that children of the devil are good.

I stand with Romans 8:29,30 - For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

 

[Helen]

Does all mean all...or does All mean some!!!

 

[LC627]

Ephesians 1:4-6 is not about predestinating someone to salvation.
It's about HOW one will be saved. It's very easy to see this if you come to scripture with no predetermined ideas.

Ephesians 1:4-6
4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

God chose those who would love Him (us) to be holy and blameless before Him. This is the PURPOSE for which we are saved --- to be holy and blameless before God.
God predestined us to be adopted sons THROUGH JESUS, according to the kind intention of the plan God had from the beginning of time when He so willed to create humans and had a plan ready to save those that would be saved by accepting His eternal plan of salvation.
The plan was to save those who wanted to be saved through Jesus and to make us as adopted sons.

God is love. He wills that no one perish.
John 5:39-41
39“You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life. 41“I do not receive glory from men;"


Notice two facts from the above scripture:

1. JESUS is saying that the listeners were UNWILLING to come to Him.
Once again, showing that man has free will to choose to go to God and the ABILITY to go to God, hence he is not totally depraved.

2. God does not get any GLORY from sending some to hell, as you believe.

Ephesians 1:4-6 is not about predestinating someone to salvation.
It's about HOW one will be saved. It's very easy to see this if you come to scripture with no predetermined ideas.

Ephesians 1:4-6
4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

God chose those who would love Him (us) to be holy and blameless before Him. This is the PURPOSE for which we are saved --- to be holy and blameless before God.
God predestined us to be adopted sons THROUGH JESUS, according to the kind intention of the plan God had from the beginning of time when He so willed to create humans and had a plan ready to save those that would be saved by accepting His eternal plan of salvation.
The plan was to save those who wanted to be saved through Jesus and to make us as adopted sons.

God is love. He wills that no one perish.
John 5:39-41
39“You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life. 41“I do not receive glory from men;"


Notice two facts from the above scripture:

1. JESUS is saying that the listeners were UNWILLING to come to Him.
Once again, showing that man has free will to choose to go to God and the ABILITY to go to God, hence he is not totally depraved.

2. God does not get any GLORY from sending some to hell, as you believe.

Predestined to adoption is pretty clear that it is about salvation. It clearly says, "He chose us". What do you do with that? God chose YOU.

 

[LC627]

what if they've never heard the Gospel?

God called Abraham from a Pagan land full of idols. The chances of him knowing anything about the One true God is slim. If God is going to reach a person's heart He will do it in anyway He pleases and that is not for me to judge. But to answer your question, according to Romans 1:20 mankind is without excuse for not knowing God.

 

[Nancy]

Not everyone will be saved. Labeling it as corporate is to beat around the bush with it, whether you believe in predestination or not, it is in the Bible. The WHOLE WORLD will not be saved.

Because they CHOSE darkness over light, took the wide road, scoffed!

 

[LC627]

Because they CHOSE darkness over light, took the wide road, scoffed!

I believe it is important to note that it is in mans very nature to go against God. I do not see it as humans choosing that road - but only doing what is natural for us as fallen beings. Mankind does not know anything else but rebellion. Our desires apart from Christ are not pure and even as Believers we must be on guard to submit every thought to the obedience of Christ.

There are many, many people in the world who have heard about Jesus but simply do not care. What causes you to be convicted over your sins and not others? I believe the real issue here is not predestination because whether you're a Calvinist or not each person must wrestle with the fact that it is in the Bible. Whether you believe election or God's foreknowledge - you have it. The unbeliever would ask you, "If God had full knowledge of everything then why did He create knowing many would go to hell and the world would be filled with evil?" Do you believe in God's foreknowledge? If so, was it right for Him to create knowing that more would be lost than saved? Was it wrong to create anyways knowing that the world would be filled with so much violence?

Even thought I lean Calvinist I know there are things I cannot answer because my understanding is so limited. One thing I've come to realize is that predestination is not the issue - not even close. For me, it is why create a world knowing completely in advance that countless billions would suffer eternal torment if it could have been avoided? We weren't missing out on anything while we were unborn, but the one born that stays lost is sadly created in vain it seems; only to know pain and sorrow that we can't imagine. How do you justify the "God of love" to someone who ask you that? Doesn't love do no harm? Even if God isn't responsible for their actions, He created them knowing their eternal state would be damnation and pain beyond anything we can comprehend.

Ecclesiastes 6:5 - A stillborn child has more rest than he—though never seeing the sun or knowing anything

Both sides of the argument has tough issues to wrestle with, but I am hopeful there is middle ground we can agree on.

 

[Enoch111]

Mankind does not know anything else but rebellion.

Why don't you take some time to study and digest this passage?
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another... (Rom 2:14,15)

If the unsaved and the heathen ("the Gentiles") can show the work of the Law (the Decalogue) written in their hearts, it means that they are frequently guided by their conscience (mentioned here).

While human beings are born with the sin nature inherited from Adam, it does not mean that all people are therefore continuously evil. The Calvinistic teaching of Total Depravity is a distortion of the truth, and you will never find a Calvinist even refer to Romans 2:14,15, let alone explain how it refutes total depravity. In fact all five points of TULIP are a distortion of the Gospel.

There are many, many people in the world who have heard about Jesus but simply do not care.

And the verse quoted from John 3:19 already explained that: And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. So why are you ignoring that verse?

What causes you to be convicted over your sins and not others?

I've seen Calvinists make this a personal issue and ask this question. The fact is that many will respond to the Gospel (which is the power of God unto salvation) while the Holy Spirit (who is also the power of God) convicts and convinces. That's all you need to know, since that is what Scripture reveals.

For me, it is why create a world knowing completely in advance that countless billions would suffer eternal torment if it could have been avoided?

1. The Bible tells us that Hell was created for the devil and his angels.
2. The Bible also tells us that creation reveals God, therefore all can put their faith in God.
3. The Bible tells us that the Gospel is to be preached to every creature, and that God commands all men everywhere to repent. Which means that He wants none to perish.

Therefore eternal torment can be avoided by all men, and no one is predestined for Hell (as taught by Calvinists and Reformed Theology).

 

[Stranger]

@Stranger - I stand corrected...you were saying that GodsGrace believes: "You have to keep earning it." My apologies. BTW- GG doesn't believe that

No problem.

Well, as I indicated, those who reject the 'election' of God usually believe you can lose your salvation. It is a natural alliance as they put all the emphasis on the individuals will. Thus if you willfully sin or turn away from God, then you are lost again.

My point was that the root cause for those who abhor the doctrine of election, is that they don't believe they need it. They have made the right choice and will continue in obedience. They don't need God to choose them or keep them.

Stranger

 

[Nancy]

I believe it is important to note that it is in mans very nature to go against God. I do not see it as humans choosing that road - but only doing what is natural for us as fallen beings. Mankind does not know anything else but rebellion. Our desires apart from Christ are not pure and even as Believers we must be on guard to submit every thought to the obedience of Christ.

There are many, many people in the world who have heard about Jesus but simply do not care. What causes you to be convicted over your sins and not others? I believe the real issue here is not predestination because whether you're a Calvinist or not each person must wrestle with the fact that it is in the Bible. Whether you believe election or God's foreknowledge - you have it. The unbeliever would ask you, "If God had full knowledge of everything then why did He create knowing many would go to hell and the world would be filled with evil?" Do you believe in God's foreknowledge? If so, was it right for Him to create knowing that more would be lost than saved? Was it wrong to create anyways knowing that the world would be filled with so much violence?

Even thought I lean Calvinist I know there are things I cannot answer because my understanding is so limited. One thing I've come to realize is that predestination is not the issue - not even close. For me, it is why create a world knowing completely in advance that countless billions would suffer eternal torment if it could have been avoided? We weren't missing out on anything while we were unborn, but the one born that stays lost is sadly created in vain it seems; only to know pain and sorrow that we can't imagine. How do you justify the "God of love" to someone who ask you that? Doesn't love do no harm? Even if God isn't responsible for their actions, He created them knowing their eternal state would be damnation and pain beyond anything we can comprehend.

Ecclesiastes 6:5 - A stillborn child has more rest than he—though never seeing the sun or knowing anything

Both sides of the argument has tough issues to wrestle with, but I am hopeful there is middle ground we can agree on.

@LC627 , I'm sure there are many things we can agree on but, this will never be one of them. I thought I was kindling for hell for most of the 90's, satan comes right in there to try and kill, steal and destroy-and of course the first thing he will do is try to snatch away their hope and faith in God. I read allot and, I would get books on different doctrines and takes on the Christian faith. I must say, it seems there is a whole lot of acrobatics trying to make something mean what it does not. It pushes people away from Christ rather than allowing the Holy Spirit to draw them closer. I'm sorry, there are WAY too many scriptures that are plain as day to me and most others as well.

2 Peter 2:1
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.

Here's a shocker for ya, my own pastor is a calvinist...but he doesn't preach on it...hmmm wonder why? Empty pews, that;s why. I will be finding another Church soon as, there is a spirit of coldness and superiority among more than a few there and, no matter how much I tried to reach out to people there-not gonna happen. That is the exact reason I am on this board-fellowship, and have been very blessed to find this little pearl of a forum. So, we are FREE to believe what we believe. I just hope you can one day see the damage this doctrine has done to cause much strife and division within the Church...why even evangelize? Did God lie when He said He would draw ALL men unto Him? Wished that NONE should perish? Whomsoever calls upon the name of the Lord? And so many other CLEAR scripture. Seems Calvinist's have to bend and twist a lot of scripture to affirm their beliefs. All it does is create an elitist attitude...and how in the world can anyone even have an assurance of their salvation? - they cant so, if you are willing to disregard a whole lot of clear scripture, only to concentrate on a few obscure ones, you too are FREE to do so.
God bless and keep you,
-nancy

 

[GodsGrace]

You will think what you want to think. Your hatred of calvinism cannot allow you to have a conversation on election. Any thing that tends to agree with what you call calvinism, you reject.

And what is 'mainline Christianity'? Is that what you believe? Of course it is. You are so bedrock...not.

Stranger

I've discussed election with you. I even agreed with you at one point,but you're too vague.

This is mainline Chrisitianity. I didn't make it up, it's been around since after the resurrection:

Jesus came to save the world because God so loved us all.
Thus, we believe in the incarnation of God in the being of Jesus.
We believe in the Trinity.
We believe in the Hyopstatic Union.
We believe in salvation by grace though faith in God.
We believe in confessing our sins to God for forgiveness.
We believe the Kingdom of God is in us and our of us, as Jesus said in John 3:3

The Christian religion has been in place many years, about 2,000. It's not up to us to make it anew.

 

[GodsGrace]

No problem.

Well, as I indicated, those who reject the 'election' of God usually believe you can lose your salvation. It is a natural alliance as they put all the emphasis on the individuals will. Thus if you willfully sin or turn away from God, then you are lost again.

My point was that the root cause for those who abhor the doctrine of election, is that they don't believe they need it. They have made the right choice and will continue in obedience. They don't need God to choose them or keep them.

Stranger

If GOD chooses YOU,
how can you be SURE you're saved???