Who Does The Father Draw?

[LC627]

Is it possible to hate something you never heard of?

“Man is without excuse for not knowing God”. It is evident that God is real and everyday the world sees His glory.

 

[GodsGrace]

Sounds like a fancy way to say justified, in order to confuse people and take control over their minds.
Cults are started that way.

When we are justified, we are made righteous.

But are we made righteous through our own merits or through the merit of our believing in Jesu?

We are justified through OUR OWN belief.
We are made righteous through Jesus' cross.

 

[GodsGrace]

When it comes to election/predestination it is important to know that no one receives injustice. The wages of sin is death, a wage is something you earn. To those whom are saved it is only by God's grace - they don't deserve it.

I bet that everyone here who has prayed for someone's salvation has said at least once, "Lord, change their heart". Why is this? Because deep down we all know that it takes an act of God to have someone saved and there is no room/desire in the human heart for the Gospel of Jesus Christ unless convicted. The world hates God and everything about God.

Sure we pray Lord changer their heart. We also pray help him to believe. We turn to God for everything! This means nothing as to what you believe it means.

I make a strong point of the fact that not believing in man having free will and that we are saved by our choice, goes back to the beginning. This is what the Apostles taught to those that came immediately after them.

Here are some statements from early Christians who had no concept of predestination until Mr. Augustine came along with all his gnostic ideas. INCLUDING original sin. Does the bible teach imputation of sin or does it teach that we are each responsible for our own sin? Paul teaches that we are all responsible for our own sin in the following:
Colossians 3:5-6
Galatians 5:19-21

And what did the early Christians, close to Jesus and the Apostles, teach about free will and imputation?:


“Let some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever occurs happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Now, if this is not so, but all things happen by fate, then neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it is predetermined that this man will be good, and this other man will be evil, neither is the first one meritorious nor the latter man to be blamed. And again, unless the human race has the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions.” -Justin Martyr (100-165 A.D.)

“We were not created to die. Rather, we die by our own fault. Our free will has destroyed us. We who were free have become slaves. We have been sold through sin. Nothing evil has been created by God. We ourselves have manifested wickedness. But we, who have manifested it, are able again to reject it.” -Tatian (120-180 A.D.)

“There is, therefore, nothing to hinder you from changing your evil manner to life, because you are a free man” -Melito (2nd century)

“But man, being endowed with reason, and in this respect similar to God, having been made free in his will, and with power over himself, is himself his own cause that sometimes he becomes wheat, and sometimes chaff.” -Ireneus (130-202 A.D.)

“I find, then, that man was constituted free by God. He was master of his own will and power…For a law would not be imposed upon one who did not have it in his power to render that obedience which is due to law. Nor again, would the penalty of death be threatened against sin, if a contempt of the law were impossible to man in the liberty of his will…Man is free, with a will either for obedience or resistance.” -Tertullian (160-225 A.D.)

The world does not hate God. Even agnostics do not hate god. Romans 1 teaches us that God has always revealed Himself to man so that man has no excuse as to accepting Him or not accepting Him.

Since Paul explains this, it's obvious he believes in free will, otherwise he would have clearly said that it is God who chooses, and not man, since this is such an important concept.
Romans 1:19-20

Proverbs 23:26
God asks for the man's heart.
It doesn't say that God just takes it.

 

[Helen]

We are justified through OUR OWN belief.
We are made righteous through Jesus' cross.

Rom 4 ...."But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. "

x

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, I mean a specific person. God knew you and I before He laid the foundations of the world. And so He chose us in Christ. (Eph. 1:4) You and I were always 'of God'. To clarify, lets say the fall never occurred. Adam and Eve continued in a blissful state upon the earth having many children and populating the earth. All those born of them would have been 'of God'. They would have been known by God from eternity past.

But now that the fall has occurred, another seed line is introduced. And many are born of Adam and Eve that are not of God. God does not know them, they are not of Him. God does not choose these. And they do not want to be chosen.

The Cross and the Blood, and the invitation to all is real. Those who have been chosen, who are of God, will respond to the offer of salvation. Those who are not chosen, who are not of God, will reject such an offer. Because the chosen are of God, then God certainly reveals Himself to them having to work through their fallenness, to bring them to the Saviour.

How is the invitation to all real if you just stated that God chooses us?
What is the use of inviting those God knows will not come? Election of specific persons makes no sense and is not supported by scripture.
Romans 1:19-20 says that God has revealed Himself from the beginning of time and that those who do not choose Him are without excuse. If they are without excuse it means that it's THEIR CHOICE to not be of God.

Revelation 22:17
17The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.

The N.T. is full of scripture that shows man's free will to choose God.

You ask what happens to those not chosen. They go to hell which is prepared for the devil and his angels.

Jesus never spoke of chosen or not chosen.
He DID speak of how we will be judged:

John 5:28-29 JESUS says:
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment."

I think we have discussed the 'will' before. I never use the term 'free will' as mans will is not free. Only God has 'free will'. We have a will, and we exercise it. But it is always influenced by outside sources.

Stranger

Could you post some scripture to support that man does not have free will?

How do you explain Philemon 1:14?
14but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.

I've asked this a few times but have received no reply yet.

 

[Dcopymope]

“Man is without excuse for not knowing God”. It is evident that God is real and everyday the world sees His glory.

Well Paul says his existence is evident in creation, so if its evident to you that your God is real, you might have a hard time convincing certain individuals if your only real evidence for him is the Bible. It is essentially a scientific statement by nature because of his inclusion of the creation as his evidence of God. How an un-contacted primitive tribe for instance would be "without excuse" for not knowing a being that never bothered to actually introduce himself at any point in their history is beyond me. Paul claims "they knew God", but who exactly is this "they" he is referring to? What truly constitutes "knowing God"?? Acknowledgement of design in the creation may not automatically be evidence of the 'God' of the Bible to everyone.

 

[LC627]

Sure we pray Lord changer their heart. We also pray help him to believe. We turn to God for everything! This means nothing as to what you believe it means.

I make a strong point of the fact that not believing in man having free will and that we are saved by our choice, goes back to the beginning. This is what the Apostles taught to those that came immediately after them.

Here are some statements from early Christians who had no concept of predestination until Mr. Augustine came along with all his gnostic ideas. INCLUDING original sin. Does the bible teach imputation of sin or does it teach that we are each responsible for our own sin? Paul teaches that we are all responsible for our own sin in the following:
Colossians 3:5-6
Galatians 5:19-21

And what did the early Christians, close to Jesus and the Apostles, teach about free will and imputation?:


“Let some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever occurs happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Now, if this is not so, but all things happen by fate, then neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it is predetermined that this man will be good, and this other man will be evil, neither is the first one meritorious nor the latter man to be blamed. And again, unless the human race has the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions.” -Justin Martyr (100-165 A.D.)

“We were not created to die. Rather, we die by our own fault. Our free will has destroyed us. We who were free have become slaves. We have been sold through sin. Nothing evil has been created by God. We ourselves have manifested wickedness. But we, who have manifested it, are able again to reject it.” -Tatian (120-180 A.D.)

“There is, therefore, nothing to hinder you from changing your evil manner to life, because you are a free man” -Melito (2nd century)

“But man, being endowed with reason, and in this respect similar to God, having been made free in his will, and with power over himself, is himself his own cause that sometimes he becomes wheat, and sometimes chaff.” -Ireneus (130-202 A.D.)

“I find, then, that man was constituted free by God. He was master of his own will and power…For a law would not be imposed upon one who did not have it in his power to render that obedience which is due to law. Nor again, would the penalty of death be threatened against sin, if a contempt of the law were impossible to man in the liberty of his will…Man is free, with a will either for obedience or resistance.” -Tertullian (160-225 A.D.)

The world does not hate God. Even agnostics do not hate god. Romans 1 teaches us that God has always revealed Himself to man so that man has no excuse as to accepting Him or not accepting Him.

Since Paul explains this, it's obvious he believes in free will, otherwise he would have clearly said that it is God who chooses, and not man, since this is such an important concept.
Romans 1:19-20

Proverbs 23:26
God asks for the man's heart.

1 Cor. 15:22 - For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned-

You say: "Agnostics don't hate god" Yeah, god with a lowercase "g" - they have their own idols in their heart like everyone else; but presented with the True GOD they are like every other human being - fallen from right standing. You don't seem to understand the evilness that dwells in each human.

 

[Enoch111]

How is the invitation to all real if you just stated that God chooses us?

You will never get Calvinists to admit to their essential DISHONESTY. The Gospel is perverted in order to fit into the Calvinistic mode. In my experience, they are as brainwashed as any cultist. Once again, what is the true Gospel message:

1. All human beings are sinners and need the Savior (Rom 3:10,23).

2. Christ died for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD (John 1:29).

3. God commands ALL MEN EVERYWHERE to repent (Acts 17:30).

4. God will have ALL MEN TO BE SAVED and to come unto the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:3,4).

TULIP rejects all these Gospel truths and substitutes another gospel for the true Gospel.

 

[LC627]

Well Paul says his existence is evident in creation, so if its evident to you that your God is real, you might have a hard time convincing certain individuals if your only real evidence for him is the Bible. It is essentially a scientific statement by nature because of his inclusion of the creation as his evidence of God. How an un-contacted primitive tribe for instance would be "without excuse" for not knowing a being that never bothered to actually introduce himself at any point in their history is beyond me. Paul claims "they knew God", but who exactly is this "they" he is referring to? What truly constitutes "knowing God"?? Acknowledgement of design in the creation may not automatically be evidence of the 'God' of the Bible to everyone.

A lot of people will proclaim they believe in God but are not actually in relationship with Him. Knowing there is a God is different than being in fellowship with God. Even if you were to prove the existence to God to people who claim to be atheist you can't make them repent or feel conviction over sin - only God can do that. So no, the kind of questions you brought up don't bother me because I understand that man is evil and many already claim belief in God yet don't see it fit to repent. (Example: God is love so I don't need to repent because He won't damn anyone to hell) We've all heard that before.

 

[LC627]

You will never get Calvinists to admit to their essential DISHONESTY. The Gospel is perverted in order to fit into the Calvinistic mode. In my experience, they are as brainwashed as any cultist. Once again, what is the true Gospel message:

1. All human beings are sinners and need the Savior (Rom 3:10,23).

2. Christ died for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD (John 1:29).

3. God commands ALL MEN EVERYWHERE to repent (Acts 17:30).

4. God will have ALL MEN TO BE SAVED and to come unto the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:3,4).

TULIP rejects all these Gospel truths and substitutes another gospel for the true Gospel.

And you can't a person in arminianism to see the true nature of man as fallen. ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, does this mean that every human will be saved? Does everyone come to the knowledge of truth? Apparently not.

 

[LC627]

@GodsGrace
You say: "Agnostics don't hate god" Yeah, god with a lowercase "g" - they have their own idols in their heart like everyone else; but presented with the True GOD they are like every other human being - fallen from right standing. You don't seem to understand the evilness that dwells in each human.

 

[LC627]

Luke 2:1 - And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.
John 12:19 - So the Pharisees said to one another, "See, this is getting us nowhere. Look how the whole world has gone after him!"

So, does "world" in these passages mean the entire world or is it a metaphor? Did Caesar tax the entire world? Did the whole world go after Jesus (even those in modern day countries that were thousands of miles away from where Jesus was)

John 17:9 - I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those YOU have GIVEN Me, for they are yours.

Acts 13:48 - And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the LORD: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

 

[Enoch111]

And you can't a person in arminianism to see the true nature of man as fallen. ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, does this mean that every human will be saved? Does everyone come to the knowledge of truth? Apparently not.

Let's forget about Arminianism. I have no interest in that.

But I have given you specific and clear Bible references for what is in the true Gospel. And that is all that matters before God.

No, everyone does NOT get saved, and no everyone does NOT come to repentance and a knowledge of the truth. And that is only because God compels no one to be saved. He commands obedience to the Gospel and He also lays out the consequences of disobedience to the Gospel (Mark 16:15,16). And all have NOT obeyed the Gospel, as Scripture plainly tells us.

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? (Rom 10:16 KJB)

 

[Stranger]

How is the invitation to all real if you just stated that God chooses us?
What is the use of inviting those God knows will not come? Election of specific persons makes no sense and is not supported by scripture.
Romans 1:19-20 says that God has revealed Himself from the beginning of time and that those who do not choose Him are without excuse. If they are without excuse it means that it's THEIR CHOICE to not be of God.

Revelation 22:17
17The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.

The N.T. is full of scripture that shows man's free will to choose God.


Jesus never spoke of chosen or not chosen.
He DID speak of how we will be judged:

John 5:28-29 JESUS says:
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment."


Could you post some scripture to support that man does not have free will?

How do you explain Philemon 1:14?
14but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.

I've asked this a few times but have received no reply yet.

The invitation is real because God has paid for all sin. The blood of Jesus Christ has paid for all sin. Thus the invitation is real. Any who come, will be saved. Any! None will be turned away who come.

I showed you in (Rom. 9) where it is supported in Scripture. Two very individual people...Jacob and Esau.

Indeed, those who reject are without excuse. God has provided everything for them and given the invitation to come. But they refuse. Yes it is their choice.

Scripture shows man's will is involved in accepting or rejecting Jesus Christ.

(Mark 13:20) "And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days."

(John 15:16) "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you,...."

(John 8:47) "He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God."

(John 10:26) "But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you."

Man has a will. It is not free. It is influenced. Only God's will has nothing influencing it. He alone has free will.

(Philemon 14) just speaks to the will. "But without thy mind, would I do nothing; that thy benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but willingly." 'Willingly' as opposed to of 'necessity'.

Stranger

 

[Triumph1300]

The answer: Daily repentance......daily repentance......

(Not much preaching on this at all these days.)

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

When we are justified, we are made righteous.

But are we made righteous through our own merits or through the merit of our believing in Jesu?

We are justified through OUR OWN belief.
We are made righteous through Jesus' cross.

And just what are you trying to imput?

 

[Enoch111]

Luke 2:1 - And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.

This is a reference to the world of the Roman Empire.

John 12:19 - So the Pharisees said to one another, "See, this is getting us nowhere. Look how the whole world has gone after him!"

This is a reference to all the people of Judea.

John 17:9 - I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those YOU have GIVEN Me, for they are yours.

This should not be taken out of context. At this particular time, the Lord was focused on His apostles, and that they would remain unshaken while He was crucified, and then would depart for Heaven. See the context.

Acts 13:48 - And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the LORD: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

So what exactly does this mean? Does it mean that God elected some for salvation, and others for damnation, or that God -- IN HIS DIVINE FOREKNOWLEDGE -- knew who would obey the Gospel, and would therefore be appointed to receive eternal life? Since Scripture cannot contradict itself, and Christians are elected according to foreknowledge (1 Pet 1:2), there is no conflict between divine foreknowledge and obedience to the Gospel

Strong's Concordance
tassó: to draw up in order, arrange
Original Word: τάσσω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: tassó
Phonetic Spelling: (tas'-so)
Short Definition: I assign, arrange
Definition: (a) I assign, arrange, (b) I determine; mid: I appoint.

But when we come to the finished work of Christ, it is an entirely different matter. And even the lexicons confirm that Jesus is speaking about all the inhabitants of the earth in John 3:17:For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

To "condemn the world" can mean nothing other than the whole world of humanity (since all have sinned and come short of the glory of God). Therefore "the world (Gk kosmos) through Him might be saved" can also mean nothing less than the whole world of humanity.

Strong's Concordance
kosmos: order, the world
Original Word: κόσμος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: kosmos
Phonetic Spelling: (kos'-mos)
Short Definition: the world, universe
Definition: the world, universe; worldly affairs; the inhabitants of the world; adornment.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2889: κόσμος
κόσμος, κόσμου, ὁ;
5. the inhabitants of the world:
θέατρονἐγενήθημεν τῷ κόσμῳ καί ἀγγέλοις καίἀνθρώποις, 1 Corinthians 4:9 (Winers Grammar, 127 (121)); particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race... John 3:17; John 10:36; John 17:18; 1 John 4:9;

As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. (John 17:18)

 

[Dcopymope]

A lot of people will proclaim they believe in God but are not actually in relationship with Him. Knowing there is a God is different than being in fellowship with God. Even if you were to prove the existence to God to people who claim to be atheist you can't make them repent or feel conviction over sin - only God can do that. So no, the kind of questions you brought up don't bother me because I understand that man is evil and many already claim belief in God yet don't see it fit to repent. (Example: God is love so I don't need to repent because He won't damn anyone to hell) We've all heard that before.

Can Gods existence truly be "proven" in the creation?? At best, you would provide evidence of design, at which point the recipient would point to any number of "gods" than just that of the Bible as the designer. So if you can boil down what exactly makes your God district from all others beyond "repentance", what would be your response? I have given my own response in a few YouTube hangouts for instance that were chock full of atheists, and none of them ever attempted to give a rebuttal.

 

[GodsGrace]

And just what are you trying to imput?

You said justified and made righteous is the same.
Is it the same?

Being justified comes from our belief and an action totally from God.
Being made righteous has nothing to do with us and is totally from God.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

You said justified and made righteous is the same.
Is it the same?

Being justified comes from our belief and an action totally from God.
Being made righteous has nothing to do with us and is totally from God.

Are you trying to imput righteousness or are you defining imput?
I'm saying for all purposes, imput and justify are the same.
You are all trying to make something of nothing.
Sounds like you are all bored and need something to argue about, even though it is meaningless.