CAN WE FALL AWAY ?

[GodsGrace]

Whenever I make an inquiry of a person, I never ask them about their salvation experience to judge if they are saved or not.

I ask them about their relationship with the God that they are worshipping right at the time that I am asking them the question.

The question cuts to the very heart of the matter regarding their status with respect to their salvation without being judgemental one way or the other.

It is more important for me to be focused on my relationship with the God that I worship, than it is to be focused on whether or not other people around me are in the same head space.

For a RELATIONSHIP with God to work, it is not prescriptive, it is a matter concerning the state of the heart within that relationship with God.

In consideration of my relationship with the people around me, I regularly fall in and out of love with them and they with me.

The same is also true with respect to my relationship with God, except for one small difference. When I fall out of love with God, He still loves me enough to continue the drawing process of me into His loving embrace of fellowship, and his forgiveness.

Shalom

I see what you mean.
It is NOT prescriptive.

Thanks.

 

[aspen]

He's fine...I have known him many years, his real name is Jim...he doesn't change much.
I think he is about 94 or 95 now...I can't remember any more, I've lost count.
He is just the same in emails. Maybe bbyrd009 will write like that when he is 95
I'm sure in real life he is sweet.

byGrace, i am not sure all people are comfortable sharing their real names on the board

 

[Jay Ross]

Is our salvation prescriptive because we follow the road to Romans?
Know we are sinners
Accept our savior...

What I wrote was: -

For a RELATIONSHIP with God to work, it is not prescriptive, it is a matter concerning the state of the heart within that relationship with God.

Perhaps the following scripture is indicative of what we need to undertake in our relationship with God.

Ephesians 4 : 17 - 24: - 17 This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, 18 having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart; 19 who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20 But you have not so learned Christ, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the refurbished man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

If we renew the spirit of our mind, i.e. our "heart", then that is what we should be "putting on display" for all to see.

When we are in love, it is visible for all to see. When we are in love it is a matter of the heart.

 

[GodsGrace]

What I wrote was: -



Perhaps the following scripture is indicative of what we need to undertake in our relationship with God.

Ephesians 4 : 17 - 24: - 17 This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, 18 having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart; 19 who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20 But you have not so learned Christ, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the refurbished man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

If we renew the spirit of our mind, i.e. our "heart", then that is what we should be "putting on display" for all to see.

When we are in love, it is visible for all to see. When we are in love it is a matter of the heart.

Good verses....couldn't agree more.

 

[Heb 13:8]

I said that every letter tells us how we are to comport ourselves as "good" Christians:
Romans 13:8-13
1 Corinthians 5:9-12
2 Corinthians 13:10-11
Galatians 5:17-21
Ephesians 5:1-6
etc etc

This is precisely because it's possible to fall away.
See 1 Corinthians 6:9. Paul tells the Corinthians that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God. In 5:9 Paul says not even to associate with immoral persons. It's not enough to just be saved, we must also live the life of a saved person. Why do you ask me about the power of God? He gave us the Holy Spirit, what more could He do than what He has done?

Also, you're putting the cart before the horse.
Sanctification does not create a good life style.
A good life style creates sanctification.
Sanctification is a life-long walk with God wherein we allow the Holy Spirit to work in us to make our life better. (we don't make our life better so the Holy Spirit could work with us).


I disagree. Being hardened by sin quenches the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit cannot be happy if we're living a life of sin such that we are hardened by it.

Could you please provide scrpture for the "seed"? I don't really know what you're referring to.


I agree with the above. But I hear too much these days about how we could live as we want to with no worries BECAUSE we're covered by the blood. Christ's blood has freed us from bondage to the sinful nature...we still have to live a life worthy of God's love for us, otherwise we trample His blood underfoot.
Hebrews 10:29


Agreed. I just want to say that the name can be erased from the Book of Life.
Revelation 3:5


Of course it's figurative language!
BUT, just as Jesus does not like lukewarm churches, He also does not care for lukewarm persons who cannot make a commitment.
Mathew 5:37 Although this is referring to oaths, we can say that our YES to anything should be a sure YES, as is confirmed in
Luke 14:28-31 We should count the cost and then proceed sure of ourselves and our commitment to God.
Luke 9:62


Jesus does not mention what you speak of above.
HE said that trees that do not bear good fruit will be cut down and burned.
Mathew 7:19

HE said that only those who do THE WILL of the Father will enter into heaven.
Mathew 7:21

HE said that those who PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS will be told to depart from Him.
Mathew 7:23

No talk of being saved or not. Jesus really never spoke of salvation; maybe 3 or 4 times. He did speak many times of doing the Father's will, of hearing His voice and of following Him.



What seed?
What seal?

THIS is what JESUS said:
John 5:28-29
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deedsto a resurrection of judgment."


Absolutely. One who does not believe in the above, cannot rightly call himself a Christian.



The word BELIEVE is always in the present tense because we must be believers when we die. Non-believers do not go to be with God.
John 3:16

I agree that we could accept Christ at any time till just before death.

I don't accept Gill's Exposition. Actually, I don't use commentaries much, hardly ever. The bible explains itself...it's a simple book to understand if you read all of it and accept it as a whole thought. It also never contradicts itself...if there seems to be a contradiction, we should look into it. Also, very clear scripture is always used as opposed to unclear scripture. JESUS plainly and clearly said in Luke 8 that the faith of the person was TEMPORARY. No need to look any further than what JESUS said. Gill has an ax to grind so I can't go by what HE says.

Mathew 13:21
The ROOT is not firm and is only temporary. The WORD was received with joy but the receiving of it was only temporary. Jesus said in Luke THEY BELIEVE FOR A WHILE. We must accept what Jesus said as an explanation and not add to the word of God. You have to change it because you believe in eternal security, but e.s. is not biblical and ends up causing problems with exegesis.

Romans 8
This is speaking about firmly rooted believers. If a believer is firmly rooted nothing can take him away from God, not even persecution.j

IOW, the persecution ITSELF will not deter belief, but what can take a person away from God is HIMSELF. He can always decide that he no longer has faith in God or believes in God ... Nothing can take us out of the hand of God...but, as they say...we can walk out of it on our own. It could be due to persecution, sickness, doubt...

Philippians 3:9-21

Paul does not have a righteousness of his own, but in Christ.
If one abandons the faith, he no longer has this righteousness.

Paul must press onward, not having as yet attained his goal, the resurrection from the dead. THIS is the goal, not rewards (which there are also in heaven) but this all important goal of life eternal, and for this Paul exhorts us to a life worthy of
God, to achieve this goal.

Wow, that's quite a post, however, one who has been converted through the conception of the seed cannot fall away. Study that scripture GG, good for you. I recommend studying it through the lens of Grace and not works tho.

Jhn 5:36-40 “I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to finish—the very works that I am doing—testify that the Father has sent me. 37And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

God bless.

 

[GodsGrace]

Wow, that's quite a post, however, one who has been converted through the conception of the seed cannot fall away. Study that scripture GG, good for you. I recommend studying it through the lens of Grace and not works tho.

Jhn 5:36-40 “I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to finish—the very works that I am doing—testify that the Father has sent me. 37And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

God bless.

Well dear Heb, I replied to your post without stating that you must not be a believer, as you have done to me by the verses you've posted. We're disussing theology here, not personal salvation of either you or me.

How did I speak of works? This is what you read into what JESUS said...so I guess HE must have spoken of works.

Perhaps YOU should reread the N.T. When you're done, tell me how many times Jesus spoke about being born from above, and then tell me how many times Jesus spoke about HOW we are to become members of the Kingdom of God here on earth.

Blessings.

 

[Taken]

So committing to a relationship with Jesus is a loss of freewill?

No. It is a man MAKING a Freewill Choice.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Yes Taken, I believe all of that. Was there something in particular, that I said you are that you question?

Me? No.
God Bless,
Taken

 

[Taken]

this is still doing/works on our part and inflated egoism/pride when in fact in Him we move and live and have our being this is claiming God's glory for ourselves but He says my glory I will not give to another- we cannot even choose to breath or to even think but we are everywhere certain we do breathe and think - we only think we think whereas in fact thoughts occur as also does breathing - we do not choose to breath or think imho - we had no choice or input in ouir creation and have none either in our salvation praise the Lord - we just dream we have washed, shaved and dressed but are still in bed dreaming[CS Lewis] - twinc

Concerning WORKS; Per a Saved man;
He shall give blessings for works or withhold blessings for lack of works.

Concerning Gods Glory; Correct, He does not give His Glory (ie His Light) to another.

Men receive Glory from God in ONE WAY...
Pertaining to TWO things.

The WAY IS; When His Light (Glory) SHINES on or in a man it is IS a Reflected Light.

The TWO "things", is God Glory reflecting 'UPON" the outer of man, that other men can Notice.
And Gods Glory reflecting "WITHIN" the man, that other men can Notice its Effects.

The EFFECTS, other men can SEE, is called, FRUITS.

It is sort of like....
The MOON has no light.
Yet we can SEE the reflection of the SUN upon the MOON....and The MOON then shines with LIGHT, from Gods Sun.

Natural Men have no light.
Yet we can SEE the EFFECTS when the Light of Gods SON shines upon or in a man.

Yes we do have a Choice, to Elect/Choose God, or not. While He already KNOWS who will Choose Him....Men themselves are not born with that awareness....they learn, they decide, they choose.

1 Thes 1:4
Knowing brethren beloved, your election of God.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Taken]

byGrace, i am not sure all people are comfortable sharing their real names on the board

Agree!
Others aren't, Don't, and she does. Her choice for herself, but not others!

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Taken]

WRONG.

YOU are in NO position to decide who is "saved" and who is not.

A fascinating Testimony (YET contradictory)
in light of the Fact YOU have Repeatedly been Declaring AND arguing, men Were Saved, and THEN, Fell AWAY!

 

[Taken]

I said that every letter tells us how we are to comport ourselves as "good" Christians:
Romans 13:8-13
1 Corinthians 5:9-12
2 Corinthians 13:10-11
Galatians 5:17-21
Ephesians 5:1-6
etc etc

This is precisely because it's possible to fall away.

[/QUOTE]

Scripture teaches TO DIVIDE THE WORD OF TRUTH. This is notifying you; The WORD itself is PURE TRUTH....however the WORD DOES NOT APPLY THE SAME TO ALL PEOPLE.

There IS A DIVISION IN Gods WORD.

What a MAN chooses SHALL APPLY TO HIM, DOES NOT MEAN IT APPLYS THE SAME to all other men.

Jesus CAME to EFFECT the DIVISION.

Luke 12:51
Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth?
I tell you NAY;
But rather DIVISION.

Every man CAN Elect and Choose which SIDE of the DIVISION he Wants to STAND.

Jews for Centuries have Believed IN thee Heavenly God, and have HOPE of Him. Their Messiah, appearing TO THEM, TO SAVE THEM.

He CAME, He Appeared.....YET, He did not Come AS THEY EXPECTED and INVISIONED...
So, many Jews did not, do not ACCEPT Jesus as THEIR MESSIAH.

That does not prohibit them FROM continuing to Believe IN God, or Their Messiah!

The Gentiles WHO traditionally DID NOT Believe IN the Jewish God, Began trusting the Testimony of the Jewish Messiah having arrived....and then ALSO began believing IN the Jewish God.

These Beliefs are ALL INDIVIDUAL mens elections and choices of what they TRUST to Believe.

Jesus' PARAMOUNT DIVISION, IS DIVIDING all men....WHO believe IN Him....from those WHO elect to NOT Believe IN Him.

All men have their Individual Natural life-span, to MAKE THEIR own election/choices.

Scripture repeatedly teaches....for a man to NOT dally. Rather to hear, learn, make his choice....since a man never knows when his own natural life may end; and his opportunity to CHOOSE expired.

A man WHO hears, learns, believes.......AND
ELECTS to CHOOSE AND Submit TO Jesus, Christ the Lord.....
THAT MAN, IS MADE Secure in WHICH SIDE of the DIVISION he FOREVER STANDS.

THAT MAN, IS KEPT SECURE "FOREVER" BY and THROUGH the Indwelling POWER OF GOD Himself.

And other men? Men who Believe in God?
Men without the Indwelling Spirit? How are they KEPT Secure in Belief?
BY THEIR OWN POWER.

Can a mans OWN POWER faulter, fail, be wavering? Absolutely!

And Scripture repeatedly WARNS THEM....if they are going to RELY on their OWN Power ... they must DO SO until the END of their natural life in order to BECOME Saved.

And men who Accept the Spirit of God, received during a Conversion, effected by and through Christ Jesus the Lord?
... they BECOME SAVED, during the Conversion....and NOTHING can UNDO that.

They ARE thereafter, blessed for ANY works they do that glorify God.
They thereafter, miss out on blessings for ANY works that do NOT glorify God.

However, THEY SHALL ... both good workers and not so good workers....BE occupants of Gods Kingdom!

Bottom line...Considering the DIVISION...
A man WITH, IN, and Christ IN HIM...ARE Forever WITH, IN, and Christ IN HIM.

A man WITHOUT, Christ....have a whole different set of Circumstances....That DO NOT APPLY TO A MAN IN and WITH Christ.

Thus....the Word of God becomes DIVIDED, dependent upon what MEN elect to choose.

Pay attention to WHO is being spoken TO in Scripture.
You provided Scriptures of men that CAN FALL AWAY......but you did not consider WHY or HOW that APPLIES to a man IN CHRIST....

Because it DOES NOT APPLY to a MAN IN Christ....nor would it APPLY to YOU, if you are IN Christ.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[BreadOfLife]

I am so glad that I am not "an anything"....I have no box.
I'm probably a mixture of many things...as we walk through life, we choose what we put onto our spiritual plates. Much is just thrown over my shoulder..

Do you regularly attend a church?

 

[BreadOfLife]

A fascinating Testimony (YET contradictory)
in light of the Fact YOU have Repeatedly been Declaring AND arguing, men Were Saved, and THEN, Fell AWAY!

Wrong.
I merely said the the Word of God tells us that they CAN be saved and fall away.

Tell me - WHO did I say was "saved" and then fell away?

 

[BreadOfLife]

I was not speaking of "A person". I was SPECIFICALLY SPEAKING OF A CONVERTED Person. And you shared and further reveal you have no concept of the Difference.
And while YOU may believe "it is a Sentence" for a man TO ELECT God and ELECT TO BECOME Converted. Scripture says Otherwise, and Converted Men testify Otherwise, to experiencing a Conversion is a JOY and Gladness.

And I noticed that you said NOTHING about remaining in this condition.
God promises to never leave US - but He never says that we can't leave HIM.

Therein lies your blunder . . .

A person? Again, you speak in irrelevant vagueness.
The FACT is AN UNCONVERTED Person can WAVER, believing, not believing, believing, not believing.....as you have been told umpteen times. As Scripture spends a Great deal of time speaking to men WHO ARE DEPENDING ON THEIR OWN POWER TO BE or REMAIN IN Belief.
Ding, ding, ding.....MEN FAIL!!
Ding, ding, ding.....Jesus came with a NEW WAY, for men to BE KEPT IN FAITH-FULLNESS to God and Christ......Hello...CONVERSION!!
Hello.....Gods INDWELLING POWER!
(That you call False and instead teach the mans power supersedes Gods INDWELLING POWER.)<----
A man SUBMITS TO A CONVERSION, BY THE THOUGHTS OF HIS HEART.....
And apparently unbeknownst to you, although you have been repeatedly told and shown...
Conversion INCLUDES the circumcision of the mans Heart......THE OLD IS CUT OFF.....
Yet you continue teach.....the OLD HEART NO LONGER IN THE NEW MAN....CAN "change it's decision" and Reject God!!!
It's DEAD man!! A new heart is IN the new creature. Why keep teaching such anti-biblical nonsense, that the OLD DEAD HEART can change and reject God? That is not Spiritual, NOR does it make a lick of Common sense, that SOMETHING CUT OFF and DEAD is making Choices!

And again - NOWHERE does God say that WE can't walk away from HIM.
He only promises that HE won't walk away from US.

God is 100% faithful.
YOU aren't. That is just your arrogance talking again . . .

Try reading the GOOD NEWS....It is the Lords INDWELLING SPIRIT that does the KEEPING of a Converted mans Faithfulness to the Lord God!!

No - it's the Lords indwelling Spirit that keeps us going IF we don't push him away.
That's what SIN is. Your arrogance is a sin.

You have got to be kidding.....Reject what the Lord has given me and keeps for me, and jump off and be your brother in DROWNING!
LOL...think again...No Way!

You wouldn't be the first one to jump off that boat - and you certainly won't be the last . . .

You can list a hundred verses and call them proof and still be in error.

You being off on another side bar, AGAIN does not reveal the facts of these supposed men you claim were Converted, then rejected The Lord......WHICH WOULD MEAN....their old DEAD circumcised heart was revived and Changed it's election.....LOL

Uh huh. And YOU could be given a hundred verses of Scriptural proof - and reject them ALL in favor of your own warped beliefs.

That is the sin of spiritual pride . . .

 

[Taken]

Wrong.
I merely said the the Word of God tells us that they CAN be saved and fall away.

Tell me - WHO did I say was "saved" and then fell away?

Who? That is funny.

Are you unfamiliar with your own argument you have been repeating for numerous pages claiming (un -named) men WERE Saved/born Again and then Fell Away.

You have been Asked to provide the Facts of these supposed Un-named men...but HAVE not....

And now you Ask me to provide Your Facts For You? LOL

 

[Nancy]

this is still doing/works on our part and inflated egoism/pride when in fact in Him we move and live and have our being this is claiming God's glory for ourselves but He says my glory I will not give to another- we cannot even choose to breath or to even think but we are everywhere certain we do breathe and think - we only think we think whereas in fact thoughts occur as also does breathing - we do not choose to breath or think imho - we had no choice or input in ouir creation and have none either in our salvation praise the Lord - we just dream we have washed, shaved and dressed but are still in bed dreaming[CS Lewis] - twinc

Good morning/afternoon/evening Twinc...not sure where you are! My question to you is : If what Jesus did for us on that cross was propitiation for our sins (which it was) and is considered a "gift" from God-does one not have to RECEIVE this gift when given? To receive, you must believe or...there IS nothing to receive. IMHO, when anyone receives His gift of salvation...given to us by Him, would you say that when a person does accept/receive this wonderful gift that that is works?
-In His Name,
-nancy

 

[Helen]

Do you regularly attend a church?

You must know how I will answer that one.
You mean a building. NO
But do I regularly rub shoulder with those who "break bread from house to house" and fellowship? Yes, almost every single day.

And yes, I know this is not the answer you want.
Somewhere else God'sGrace asked for my church history and I listed the last 54 years since I became a believing Christian ...for her...but I forget which thread...I believe that was yesterday...and probably easy to find.

I can hunt it out if you like.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Who? That is funny.
Are you unfamiliar with your own argument you have been repeating for numerous pages claiming (un -named) men WERE Saved/born Again and then Fell Away.

You have been Asked to provide the Facts of these supposed Un-named men...but HAVE not....

And now you Ask me to provide Your Facts For You? LOL

That's a complete LIE.

MY point all along is that the verses I presented show that a born again Christian CAN fall away and be lost forever.
YOU are the one who started asking me WHO these people "were".
I never said anything about specific cases. I was showing you the Biblical truth that born again, converted people can walk away from God.

Sorry if the truth hurts . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

You must know how I will answer that one.
You mean a building. NO
But do I regularly rub shoulder with those who "break bread from house to house" and fellowship? Yes, almost every single day.

And yes, I know this is not the answer you want.
Somewhere else God'sGrace asked for my church history and I listed the last 54 years since I became a believing Christian ...for her...but I forget which thread...I believe that was yesterday...and probably easy to find.

I can hunt it out if you like.

Actually - I simply meant "congregation" - not "building".

I wanted to know if you regularly attended a service or belonged to any particular congregation.
And, if not - WHY not?