CAN WE FALL AWAY ?

[H. Richard]

Most all of this thread's disagreement is about legalism or faith only.

If you read the scriptures for what they say a person has to see that legalism has been put aside so that God can show His mercy in a salvation that He has instituted. This salvation was not instituted until Jesus sent Paul out to proclaim it. Paul said the gospel he preached (grace) was hidden in God and revealed to him for us. It is not based on Jesus laws or rituals in religion. It is based on what God's Son did on the cross ONLY.

Those who believe in legalism believe salvation is obtained by what a person DOES. In legalism mankind thinks God owes them salvation.

God does not owe them anything if they refuse to believe Jesus' shed blood has paid for their sins of the flesh. When a person is so warped up in the idea that God owes them salvation because they follow Jesus' commandments they are only fooling themselves since no man/woman can keep those commandments.

The scripture plainly tells us the Paul's gospel was hidden in God and revealed to him for us. If a person does not understand that there was a change from legalism to grace then they will never see God's plan of salvation. But religious people only believe in what they think they can do. Even though history has proven that no man/woman can keep God's commandments. They are blind to that fact.

 

[Heb 13:8]

JESUS SAID:
Mathew 25:44-46
44“Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45“Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Jesus is not talking about division or loss of rewards. He is not distinguishing between who does what...He DOES say that those who do not do for their neighbor will go into eternal punishment.

Those who go into eternal punishment are the goats GG.

The sheep are believers in Christ and the goats are nonbelievers.

https://www.christianityboard.com/threads/sheep-wolves-illustration.26291/

God bless

 

[Heb 13:8]

Most all of this thread's disagreement is about legalism or faith only.

If you read the scriptures for what they say a person has to see that legalism has been put aside so that God can show His mercy in a salvation that He has instituted. This salvation was not instituted until Jesus sent Paul out to proclaim it. Paul said the gospel he preached (grace) was hidden in God and revealed to him for us. It is not based on Jesus laws or rituals in religion. It is based on what God's Son did on the cross ONLY.

Those who believe in legalism believe salvation is obtained by what a person DOES. In legalism mankind thinks God owes them salvation.

God does not owe them anything if they refuse to believe Jesus' shed blood has paid for their sins of the flesh. When a person is so warped up in the idea that God owes them salvation because they follow Jesus' commandments they are only fooling themselves since no man/woman can keep those commandments.

The scripture plainly tells us the Paul's gospel was hidden in God and revealed to him for us. If a person does not understand that there was a change form legalism to grace then they will never see God's plan of salvation. But religious people only believe in what they think they can do. Even though history has proven that no man/woman can keep God's commandments. They are blind to that fact.

In legalism, they remove Jesus from the cross and put themselves up there. Does anyone have a hammer?

 

[GodsGrace]

Those who go into eternal punishment are the goats GG.

The sheep are believers in Christ and the goats are nonbelievers.

https://www.christianityboard.com/threads/sheep-wolves-illustration.26291/

God bless

Heb, I don't like to go on forever about anything.

Goats can change to sheep.
Did they not change into sheep when they heard Jesus' voice and became born again?
And so, sheep can change back into goats when they stop hearing Jesus' voice and are no longer born again.

We can be born into the Kingdom, and we can be removed from the Kingdom if we don't follow the rules of the Kingdom. Try not following the rules of your state and see what happens to you. And don't tell me it's not the same because neither is the analogy of sheep and goats.

When we become born again we become so because of the Holy Spirit.
Titus 3:5
We all agree that we are not saved by our own works but by our faith and the regeneration of the Holy Spirit.
We all agree that this is a life-long process...we are not regenerated all at once.
As I've said many times, we do not give life to ourselves...Jesus gives us life when we are grafted into HIS vine. HE is the vine that gives life to the branches.
If the branches are cut down, we lose the life, we no longer have the Holy Spirit dwelling within us and thus we are worse off than before.

John 15:1-6 JESUS SAYS:
1“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. 3“You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither canyou unless you abide in Me. 5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. "


Every branch that does not bear fruit, the Father takes away.
John15:2
In verse 4 Jesus says that the branch cannot bear fruit UNLESS it abides in the vine,,,which is Jesus. And in that case, the Father will do as in verse 2 and will take the branch away.
Verse 6 Who does NOT abide in Jesus is thrown away as a branch that does not produce fruit, it dries up, is gathered and cast into the fire and burned.

This is Jesus speaking, not me.
You can believe what you will.
Those who do good deeds to a life of resurrection,
and those who do evil deeds to a life of judgement.
John 5:28-29

 

[H. Richard]

Heb, I don't like to go on forever about anything.

Goats can change to sheep.
Did they not change into sheep when they heard Jesus' voice and became born again?
And so, sheep can change back into goats when they stop hearing Jesus' voice and are no longer born again.

We can be born into the Kingdom, and we can be removed from the Kingdom if we don't follow the rules of the Kingdom. Try not following the rules of your state and see what happens to you. And don't tell me it's not the same because neither is the analogy of sheep and goats.

When we become born again we become so because of the Holy Spirit.
Titus 3:5
We all agree that we are not saved by our own works but by our faith and the regeneration of the Holy Spirit.
We all agree that this is a life-long process...we are not regenerated all at once.
As I've said many times, we do not give life to ourselves...Jesus gives us life when we are grafted into HIS vine. HE is the vine that gives life to the branches.
If the branches are cut down, we lose the life, we no longer have the Holy Spirit dwelling within us and thus we are worse off than before.

John 15:1-6 JESUS SAYS:
1“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. 3“You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither canyou unless you abide in Me. 5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. "


Every branch that does not bear fruit, the Father takes away.
John15:2
In verse 4 Jesus says that the branch cannot bear fruit UNLESS it abides in the vine,,,which is Jesus. And in that case, the Father will do as in verse 2 and will take the branch away.
Verse 6 Who does NOT abide in Jesus is thrown away as a branch that does not produce fruit, it dries up, is gathered and cast into the fire and burned.

This is Jesus speaking, not me.
You can believe what you will.
Those who do good deeds to a life of resurrection,
and those who do evil deeds to a life of judgement.
John 5:28-29

***

Just as I said. Those that teach we are to follow Jesus' commands do not realize that both He and the Jews were under the law of Moses. Today, no one is under the law of Moses. The scriptures say that. THAT IS A CHANGE!

There was a change after the Jews refuse Jesus and then shed His blood on a cross.

If there are RULES then it is legalism. Everyone that talks about rules has the opinion that they keep those rules and others don't. But they are not deceiving God, they are only deceiving themselves.

Heb 10:29
29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
NKJV

Col 1:19-23
19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell,
20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled
22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight —
23 if indeed you continue in the faith, {not works} grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.
NKJV

 

[GodsGrace]

***

Just as I said. Those that teach we are to follow Jesus' commands do not realize that both He and the Jews were under the law of Moses. Today, no one is under the law of Moses. The scriptures say that. THAT IS A CHANGE!

There was a change after the Jews refuse Jesus and then shed His blood on a cross.

If there are RULES then it is legalism. Everyone that talks about rules has the opinion that they keep those rules and others don't. But they are not deceiving God, they are only deceiving themselves.

Heb 10:29
29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
NKJV

Col 1:19-23
19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell,
20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled
22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight —
23 if indeed you continue in the faith, {not works} grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.
NKJV

You don't know what opinion those that speak of rules have. It's rather forward of you to think you know what others think or feel about their faith. Perhaps you are very arrogant in your belief that God expects nothing from you?

Jesus is God. Jesus said what He meant...He did not make any mistakes --- which is what you're implying. Jesus said He did NOT come to abolish the law.
Mathew 5:17
He came to make it MORE than what the pharisees were following. They were following the law on the outside, Jesus wants us to follow it on the inside, with the heart.
Mathew 5:20
Jeremiah 31:33

The law was not abolished...it has been written on the heart, as per God's word.
Do you believe either Jesus or God?

Who said we are under the Law of Moses? You make incorrect assumptions about what people think or believe. Do you know which laws were abolished? Do you know which laws remain? Are you not required to follow the 10 commandments because of your mistaken belief that the law is abolished?
Leviticus 22:31
31“So you shall keep My commandments, and do them; I am the LORD."
Has God changed His mind? God is the same: Yesterday, today and tomorrow.

John 15:8-10 JESUS said:
8“My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. 9“Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. 10“If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. "
Seems to me that God is still the same and demands obedience to His commandments. If you wish not to obey Jesus, that is your prerogative.

Hebrews 10:29 is speaking about Jews who were considering going back to Judaism. I don't know anyone on this forum who is a Jew considering going back to Judaism...

You can call it legalism, I like to call it obeying God Almighty.
We will all answer for what we have taught others.
If you want to teach that obeying God is not necessary and that there are no rules to follow in Christianity, that is your decision for which God will hold you responsible.
James 3:1

 

[Taken]

H. Richard ~ Right on!

Everything exists Because of thee Lord God, as He is the creator and maker.
His word
Laws
Commands
Precepts
Branches

Bottom line...
ANY man who Desires to have his Salvation and spirit Quickened, NOW....
It is ONLY accomplished BY and THROUGH Christ the Lord Jesus' Conversion.

All the Scriptures that APPLY to ANY man WHO HAS NOT received a Conversion....Scriptures that APPLY to him, DO NOT APPLY to him who HAS received a Conversion.

Additionally ANY MAN WHO has received a Conversion.....It is ONCE and Forever.

And Yes men without a conversion, CAN and DO dally back and forth between believing, not believing, trusting, not trusting, doubting, denying, rejecting, accepting....and until they LAND on choosing to become Converted....they can waver until their last breath...and much of Scripture Applies to such men.

Some choose to simply believe AND Apply ALL Scripture to them. (And others!!). It is a faulty concept desperately trying to make "Opposites" be applicable to One man.

The Lord Himself holds the KEY to His Understanding of His own Word, but it seems more instead of fewer elect to rely on their MINDS understanding instead of seeking His Understanding, (which IS what He teaches.)

Excellent posts.
God Bless,
Taken

 

[amadeus]

Have you ever seen or heard of a sheep turn into a goat overnight?

Sheep will always remain sheep, though some may stray.

Hmmm? I wonder about this. What happened to Adam and Eve when they sinned that first time? Did they not take on the nature of beasts? What are the beasts in a man? Are they unclean or clean? For some it may be some of both at the first but then when the uncleans beasts have been killed is he not moved from the bottom of the Ark to the middle where the clean beasts dwell. The sheep, I believe are clean beasts, but can they not revert? Can they not go back and partake of their own vomit once again? Can they not look behind them with longing for that which still attracts them in Sodom?

But... the best thing certainly is to be elevated from that lowest room to a higher place? How high can we go? What limit has God put on us? What limit have we put on Him?

If we are saved as unclean beasts, we are not fit to eat nor to sacrifice. Is that the advantage of being a clean beast, both saved and potentially fit to eat and to sacrifice? So then consider this one; what of the dove?

Son 6:9 My dove, my undefiled is but one; she is the only one of her mother, she is the choice one of her that bare her. The daughters saw her, and blessed her; yea, the queens and the concubines, and they praised her.

 

[Taken]

Hmmm? I wonder about this. What happened to Adam and Eve when they sinned that first time? Did they not take on the nature of beasts? What are the beasts in a man? Are they unclean or clean? For some it may be some of both at the first but then when the uncleans beasts have been killed is he not moved from the bottom of the Ark to the middle where the clean beasts dwell. The sheep, I believe are clean beasts, but can they not revert? Can they not go back and partake of their own vomit once again? Can they not look behind them with longing for that which still attracts them in Sodom?

But... the best thing certainly is to be elevated from that lowest room to a higher place? How high can we go? What limit has God put on us? What limit have we put on Him?

If we are saved as unclean beasts, we are not fit to eat nor to sacrifice. Is that the advantage of being a clean beast, both saved and potentially fit to eat and to sacrifice? So then consider this one; what of the dove?

Son 6:9 My dove, my undefiled is but one; she is the only one of her mother, she is the choice one of her that bare her. The daughters saw her, and blessed her; yea, the queens and the concubines, and they praised her.

Cleansed, perfected, high enough to:

Be called His son and sit with Him.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Heb 13:8]

John 15:1-6 JESUS SAYS:
1“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. 3“You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither canyou unless you abide in Me. 5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. "


Every branch that does not bear fruit, the Father takes away.
John15:2
In verse 4 Jesus says that the branch cannot bear fruit UNLESS it abides in the vine,,,which is Jesus. And in that case, the Father will do as in verse 2 and will take the branch away.
Verse 6 Who does NOT abide in Jesus is thrown away as a branch that does not produce fruit, it dries up, is gathered and cast into the fire and burned.

And Jhn 15 is an allegory. Using parables and allegory language to disprove facts is poor exegesis, and the fact is that Jesus died for past, present and future sins, Rom 8:38. Coming to faith in Jesus Christ will be the best decision of your life. - Heb

 

[H. Richard]

You don't know what opinion those that speak of rules have. It's rather forward of you to think you know what others think or feel about their faith. Perhaps you are very arrogant in your belief that God expects nothing from you?

Jesus is God. Jesus said what He meant...He did not make any mistakes --- which is what you're implying. Jesus said He did NOT come to abolish the law.
Mathew 5:17
He came to make it MORE than what the pharisees were following. They were following the law on the outside, Jesus wants us to follow it on the inside, with the heart.
Mathew 5:20
Jeremiah 31:33

The law was not abolished...it has been written on the heart, as per God's word.
Do you believe either Jesus or God?

Who said we are under the Law of Moses? You make incorrect assumptions about what people think or believe. Do you know which laws were abolished? Do you know which laws remain? Are you not required to follow the 10 commandments because of your mistaken belief that the law is abolished?
Leviticus 22:31
31“So you shall keep My commandments, and do them; I am the LORD."
Has God changed His mind? God is the same: Yesterday, today and tomorrow.

John 15:8-10 JESUS said:
8“My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. 9“Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. 10“If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. "
Seems to me that God is still the same and demands obedience to His commandments. If you wish not to obey Jesus, that is your prerogative.

Hebrews 10:29 is speaking about Jews who were considering going back to Judaism. I don't know anyone on this forum who is a Jew considering going back to Judaism...

You can call it legalism, I like to call it obeying God Almighty.
We will all answer for what we have taught others.
If you want to teach that obeying God is not necessary and that there are no rules to follow in Christianity, that is your decision for which God will hold you responsible.
James 3:1

****

You don't seem to understand that in this age of grace it is NOT like the age of Law. When Jesus came He came to the Jews to give them their promised Messiah and King and the kingdom and it was all under the Law of Moses. But all that was refused.

You posted, ""You can call it legalism, I like to call it obeying God Almighty.
We will all answer for what we have taught others.
If you want to teach that obeying God is not necessary and that there are no rules to follow in Christianity, that is your decision for which God will hold you responsible."

Yes He will and he will hold you responsible too. You do not glorify Jesus' work on the cross where He shed His blood to pay for your sins. You only glory in your keeping commandments. You will condemn me for glorying in His works and not my own while you glory in your rule and command keeping.

Keeping Jesus' commandments is believing in the grace gospel He gave Paul. You know, the one that was hidden in God. Do you believe in the gospel Jesus gave to Paul. O YES I know the thoughts of the religious that will not believe that Jesus changed the way mankind can be saved. They like rules and regulations where they can earn their salvation by their works even though the scriptures tell them they can't.

No child of God loves to sin but they are aware that they can not keep commandments which seems to be lacking in the religious.

So some teach that when Jesus came teaching the law to the Jews He was teaching to the Gentiles too. NO! Jesus changed things around when He sent Paul out with a gospel of God's grace. Do you think that works are require under God's grace?? If you do then you know nothing about God's grace. To anyone who thinks Jesus came preaching salvation is about grace when He was teaching the Jews how to keep the law they know nothing about God' grace.

YES! God has instituted a gospel of grace under which He can call the ungodly righteous {this is in the scriptures} . Why??? Because He loves mankind so much that He paid for their sins on the cross. In doing this He has created a level playing field where it does not depend on a person's ability to keep rules and commandments. But to the religious He paid for all ???????? those that can stop sinning and keep rules and regulations????.

If a person does not think they are ungodly then they can not see into their own heart nor do they believe the scriptures that say we are all sinners. There are some on this forum that think they are keeping Jesus' commandments and they show nothing but hate towards anyone that disagrees with them.

Yes! I can judge those that produce nothing but hate. I can also tell who is a child of God. That is not me saying that, it is in the scriptures. I live in a body of sin that sins. God know it and has given me His grace in that He has saved me. Not because I keep rules and commandments but because I believe Him when He said He paid for my sins on the cross. Many can't even see this.

Paul knew who were children of God by their FAITH IN JESUS' work on the cross and so do I. What I see most on this forum is those that only have faith in their belief that they are keeping Jesus' commandments to save themselves and it will not. Only faith in the finished works of Jesus on the cross will save a person.

One thing that is obvious is that the religious will not face their own sinful condition.

 

[Enoch111]

What happened to Adam and Eve when they sinned that first time? Did they not take on the nature of beasts?

Definitely not. They died spiritually.

What are the beasts in a man? Are they unclean or clean?

There are no beasts in men. Even though all human beings are born separated from God, and therefore they MUST be born again in order to enter and see the Kingdom of God, God has put the conscience with every person, so that all men can distinguish between good and evil, and many even choose to do good while unsaved (Rom 2:9-16).

The sheep, I believe are clean beasts, but can they not revert? Can they not go back and partake of their own vomit once again?

No, sheep cannot transmute into goats, dogs, or swine. Sheep will always remain sheep, but some sheep may try to wander off, and the Shepherd will deal with recalcitrant sheep (sometimes very severely).

How high can we go? What limit has God put on us? What limit have we put on Him?

Man cannot limit God in any way (though many may try foolishly, and foolish Atheists may even dismiss the existence of God). But the standard which God had put before His children is absolutely the highest standard. Himself.

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. (Mt 5:48)

But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. (1 Pet 1:15,16).

 

[amadeus]

Definitely not. They died spiritually.

"I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts." Ecc 3:18

There are no beasts in men. Even though all human beings are born separated from God, and therefore they MUST be born again in order to enter and see the Kingdom of God, God has put the conscience with every person, so that all men can distinguish between good and evil, and many even choose to do good while unsaved (Rom 2:9-16).

"Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish." Psalm 49:12

No, sheep cannot transmute into goats, dogs, or swine.

Sheep will always remain sheep, but some sheep may try to wander off, and the Shepherd will deal with recalcitrant sheep (sometimes very severely).

"For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity." Ecc 3:19​

There are also many examples of unclean animals as well as unclean people in the OT. In the NT we read then this:

"But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth.
But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common." Acts 11-8-9

The voice was not simply talking about man calls lower animals. He was talking about gentiles: unclean people.

Man cannot limit God in any way (though many may try foolishly, and foolish Atheists may even dismiss the existence of God). But the standard which God had put before His children is absolutely the highest standard. Himself.

"Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel." Psalm 78:41

How was it they were able to limit God? God gave man control over himself, He gave them the ability to limited the help He could provide. Only man can remove this limitation by surrendering his own reins to God. This is why the Apostle wrote this admonition:

"Quench not the Spirit." I Thess 5:19

The Holy Spirit in a man is able to fix the problems in a man, killing the beasts of the man, but when the man quenches the Holy Spirit in him, he limits God yet again. Solomon writes about this need to kill those beasts:

"Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars:
She hath killed her beasts; she hath mingled her wine; she hath also furnished her table." Prov 9:1-2

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. (Mt 5:48)

But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. (1 Pet 1:15,16).

Good verses, but until all of our beasts are dead, we cannot be perfect because we continue to limit God. The Way has been opened. The means has been provided.[/QUOTE]

 

[Taken]

Most all of this thread's disagreement is about legalism or faith only.

If you read the scriptures for what they say a person has to see that legalism has been put aside so that God can show His mercy in a salvation that He has instituted. This salvation was not instituted until Jesus sent Paul out to proclaim it. Paul said the gospel he preached (grace) was hidden in God and revealed to him for us. It is not based on Jesus laws or rituals in religion. It is based on what God's Son did on the cross ONLY.

Those who believe in legalism believe salvation is obtained by what a person DOES. In legalism mankind thinks God owes them salvation.

God does not owe them anything if they refuse to believe Jesus' shed blood has paid for their sins of the flesh. When a person is so warped up in the idea that God owes them salvation because they follow Jesus' commandments they are only fooling themselves since no man/woman can keep those commandments.

The scripture plainly tells us the Paul's gospel was hidden in God and revealed to him for us. If a person does not understand that there was a change from legalism to grace then they will never see God's plan of salvation. But religious people only believe in what they think they can do. Even though history has proven that no man/woman can keep God's commandments. They are blind to that fact.

Amen!

Jesus came to give His Flesh....For....The Life of the World.
John 6:51

Any man can Accept His giving...or not.

Correct! It has nothing to do with legalism....
And everything to do With Gods Grace, Gods Great Name Being Glorified, A mans Acceptance, and Gods blessings upon the man Who Accepts His Offering.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[GodsGrace]

And Jhn 15 is an allegory. Using parables and allegory language to disprove facts is poor exegesis, and the fact is that Jesus died for past, present and future sins, Rom 8:38. Coming to faith in Jesus Christ will be the best decision of your life. - Heb

John 15 is an allegory and incorrect to use it for hermeneutics?
Interesting since Jesus used parables, allegories, and other such methods to relay His message to the people of that day and there is even a very strong reason why He did this. I trust you know what it is since you're so knowledgeable.

Here is your allegory that Jesus used:

I AM THE TRUE VINE .... Jesus is the vine. Hmmm. Wonder what that could mean?

MY FATHER IS THE VINE DRESSER .... God Father takes care of the vine. Hmmmm.....

THERE ARE BRANCHES IN JESUS, THE VINE.... Wonder who the branches could be??

GOD FATHER PRUNES SOME OF THE BRANCHES .... Jesus even tells us which ones. Do you know which ones?

BRANCHES CANNOT BEAR FRUIT ON THEIR OWN.... More mystery. Maybe Jesus didn't mean to be understood??

I AM THE VINE, YOU ARE THE BRANCHES .... Wow, looks like Jesus is helping us along to understand !

IF ANYONE DOES NOT ABIDE IN ME, HE IS THROWN AWAY AND BURNED...
Quite an allegory,,,everything has meaning, and Jesus means everything.

It's a good thing to know proper exegesis and hermeneutics in general.
For starters, Jesus meant everything He said for EVERYONE who desires to be a disciple and follow Him.

Here is something Paul said, you're hero:

1 Corinthians 11:1-3
1Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ.

2Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you. 3But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.

Kind of sounds like the allegory of John 15.
Christ is the head of every man.
God is the head of Christ.

 

[GodsGrace]

****

You don't seem to understand that in this age of grace it is NOT like the age of Law. When Jesus came He came to the Jews to give them their promised Messiah and King and the kingdom and it was all under the Law of Moses. But all that was refused.

You posted, ""You can call it legalism, I like to call it obeying God Almighty.
We will all answer for what we have taught others.
If you want to teach that obeying God is not necessary and that there are no rules to follow in Christianity, that is your decision for which God will hold you responsible."

Yes He will and he will hold you responsible too. You do not glorify Jesus' work on the cross where He shed His blood to pay for your sins. You only glory in your keeping commandments. You will condemn me for glorying in His works and not my own while you glory in your rule and command keeping.

Keeping Jesus' commandments is believing in the grace gospel He gave Paul. You know, the one that was hidden in God. Do you believe in the gospel Jesus gave to Paul. O YES I know the thoughts of the religious that will not believe that Jesus changed the way mankind can be saved. They like rules and regulations where they can earn their salvation by their works even though the scriptures tell them they can't.

No child of God loves to sin but they are aware that they can not keep commandments which seems to be lacking in the religious.

So some teach that when Jesus came teaching the law to the Jews He was teaching to the Gentiles too. NO! Jesus changed things around when He sent Paul out with a gospel of God's grace. Do you think that works are require under God's grace?? If you do then you know nothing about God's grace. To anyone who thinks Jesus came preaching salvation is about grace when He was teaching the Jews how to keep the law they know nothing about God' grace.

YES! God has instituted a gospel of grace under which He can call the ungodly righteous {this is in the scriptures} . Why??? Because He loves mankind so much that He paid for their sins on the cross. In doing this He has created a level playing field where it does not depend on a person's ability to keep rules and commandments. But to the religious He paid for all ???????? those that can stop sinning and keep rules and regulations????.

If a person does not think they are ungodly then they can not see into their own heart nor do they believe the scriptures that say we are all sinners. There are some on this forum that think they are keeping Jesus' commandments and they show nothing but hate towards anyone that disagrees with them.

Yes! I can judge those that produce nothing but hate. I can also tell who is a child of God. That is not me saying that, it is in the scriptures. I live in a body of sin that sins. God know it and has given me His grace in that He has saved me. Not because I keep rules and commandments but because I believe Him when He said He paid for my sins on the cross. Many can't even see this.

Paul knew who were children of God by their FAITH IN JESUS' work on the cross and so do I. What I see most on this forum is those that only have faith in their belief that they are keeping Jesus' commandments to save themselves and it will not. Only faith in the finished works of Jesus on the cross will save a person.

One thing that is obvious is that the religious will not face their own sinful condition.

HR,
God will know His children. Certainly not those who encourage others not to obey the commandments of God by stating that there aren't any when Jesus clearly said that there are.

I post scripture. Your disagreement is with scripture.
You resort to personal comments about me.
This is all that's left when someone does not have a leg to stand on because his beliefs go against scripture.

So much writing on your part to reach no conclusion...

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I do believe all Presbyterians are reformed ... Calvinist.

WRONG!

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I am so glad that I am not "an anything"....I have no box.
I'm probably a mixture of many things...as we walk through life, we choose what we put onto our spiritual plates. Much is just thrown over my shoulder..

I thought you were a member of the Church of the Enlightened Path as the Grand Banana of the Flowering Maidens

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

HR,
God will know His children. Certainly not those who encourage others not to obey the commandments of God by stating that there aren't any when Jesus clearly said that there are.

I post scripture. Your disagreement is with scripture.
You resort to personal comments about me.
This is all that's left when someone does not have a leg to stand on because his beliefs go against scripture.

So much writing on your part to reach no conclusion...

Hi GiGi.

 

[GodsGrace]

WRONG!

What's WRONG!
Which ones aren't?