Blotted out of The Book Of Life?

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Kristian Gamst

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@Kristian Gamst you said..."So I am not saying that salvation is by Works"

If you do anything that causes a change in your salvation then it is by works.

We didn't earn our salvation and none of us deserve it (myself included) Let's take the focus off us because when it comes down to it, we all fail, and let's rely on the grace of God and not anything we do.

Maintaining salvation by works is the desire for your own control / power. You hold your salvation, you have the power over it. Which gives you room to boast. A truly born again believer will naturally desire to serve/obey God in their new nature.

If you have room to boast then the root is pride, and pride is misdirected because instead of singing "How great Thou art" to God, you're singing it to yourself.

I will answer a lot of the posts lately by this answer, so hope the ones who are involved in the discussion reads it :D

For all of you who Call me proud, I believe it is ok for you to say that. Because I truly believe you really think so in Your hearts and i respect that. But in reality I don't beleive that is the case, I will hopefully convince you of that With my answer. As always God bless you all With His Grace!

My point on all I have writed is that you can lose salvation. I may have been a little strong in my Words by saying that I was assured about it, and I am sorry for that. I ask for forgiveness for maybe not using the suitable Words. My other point is that you have to keep yourself in the love of God (Jude 1,21), and thats all. You say its by Works, but really it actually isn't. I'll explain myself:
I'll give you a Picture which I think makes it easier to understand what I am trying to say:
It's Christmas and you are going to wrap up the gifts. You have recieved it a gidt from Your mom. That gift is free, no cost, you didn't really deserve it, but really its by Grace. Its a lot the same With salvation. You got it for free, it was a gift given to you With no cost, and it is undeserving. But as the gift the son recieved you have to KEEP the gift to make get the benefits of the gift. It is free, but you have to keep it to have any advantage of having recieved it. You don't do anything for it, you just keep it and you will have the advantages it gives. But if you throw the gift away you will not have the benefits of the gift, it is no use to you. This is also how I believe the Bible puts salvation. You have recieved for free, no payment, only Grace. You just have to keep it and you will have all the benefits of the gift. And keeping something I wouldn't say is work. You really don't do anything. You recieved it as a gift, into Your heart. You're only letting it be there and transform you. If the gift is laid in Your heart and you keep it there, you do not do anything, do you? Its just there. You cannot sa: "Having Gods love (agape) in you is a work because you keep it." No, its not a work, its just letting it live in you and transform you. The same is it With salvation. BUT, you can take it out again and throw it away and it will be of no use. You have to take a Clear chioce to take it out. And that Choice is to live in sin, not just falling into it. When you decide to live that life, a LIFE in sin, you will take out what you have been given. As I have mentioned there is a big difference between falling into sin and living in sin, as we can see in 1 Corinthians 6,9-11 (The last verse tells us the glorious truth that we actually can come to the Lord again even after living in sin):
'Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.'

This is all continually sinning. A LIFE of sin. And those who live continually in sin will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

I hope this made my view clearer. i tried to make it as simple as I could to put my view in here.
God bless you all mightily!
 
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Helen

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But,,,,,, Romans 9 to 11 is specifically to the Jews.
Magnana.
Domani.
Dumain.

If we are splitting hairs here :D
Romans 9 is to the Roman gentile Christians ( incl all of us) ..
..but written about the Jews to the church.
 

Heb 13:8

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This is all continually sinning. A LIFE of sin. And those who live continually in sin will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

Who you're describing are nonbelievers KG. They never had that conversion, the indwelling Holy Spirit. Spiritual abortion of the seed is not biblical.

Gal 3:19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator.

Gal 3:29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

1Pe 1:23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

1Jo 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

God bless
 

Kristian Gamst

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Who you're describing are nonbelievers KG. They never had that conversion, the indwelling Holy Spirit. Spiritual abortion of the seed is not biblical.

Gal 3:19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator.

Gal 3:29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

1Pe 1:23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

1Jo 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

God bless

That is not my point at all. You can read my post without that verse if you want to. I didn't use the verse to prove my point, just to make it Clear who will not inherit the Kingdom of God ;)
BTW; remeber that it is the seed that is not perishable, not the one having it inside them. Salvation will never persih, it stands firm forever and ever, but the ones having it can throw it away, throw away the gift as i wrote about in my last post. Even though you threw it away it is as unpersihable as always. Salvation always remains.
Be blessed.
 

Heb 13:8

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That is not my point at all. You can read my post without that verse if you want to. I didn't use the verse to prove my point, just to make it Clear who will not inherit the Kingdom of God ;)
BTW; remeber that it is the seed that is not perishable, not the one having it inside them. Salvation will never persih, it stands firm forever and ever, but the ones having it can throw it away, throw away the gift as i wrote about in my last post. Even though you threw it away it is as unpersihable as always. Salvation always remains.
Be blessed.

Believe God when He tells you............

1Jo 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

Being "born of God" is a permanent condition of the heart KG.
 
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Heart2Soul

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Then they never had that conversion Heart, the indwelling Holy Spirit. Spiritual abortion of the seed is not biblical.

Gal 3:19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator.

Gal 3:29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

1Pe 1:23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

1Jo 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

God bless
I am under the impression that you think the flesh is born again.....The flesh wars against the spirit continually desiring to fulfill it's lustful desires and to be gratified through the things of the world rather than spiritual blessings. They who walk after the spirit will not fulfill the lust of the flesh.....when we are risen with Christ we are removed of the corruptible flesh nature and given the incorruptible spirit nature.....when we face God on the day of judgment it is our heart that will be judged not the works of our flesh. His Word says the flesh is cursed and has been condemned to death to return to the dust from which it came.
I cannot control every lustful nature of my flesh but I can crucify it daily and put it under authority of my spirit. We have 2 separate natures the flesh and the spirit. To be born of God is to be born of His spirit.

Commentary:
1 John 3:9

1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God

In a figurative and spiritual sense; who are regenerated, or born from above; who are quickened by the grace of God, and have Christ formed in them; who are made partakers of the divine nature, and new creatures in Christ; which spiritual birth is not owing to men, to the power and will of men, but to the grace of God; and is sometimes ascribed to the Father, who of his own will and abundant mercy begets souls again to a lively hope, and saves them by the washing of regeneration; and sometimes to Christ, who quickens whom he will, whose grace is implanted, and image stamped in it, and by whose resurrection from the dead men are begotten again; and chiefly, to the Spirit of God, who is the author of regeneration, and of the whole of sanctification: and such as are born of him are alive through him, the spirit of life entering into them, and live to God and upon Christ, and breathe after divine and spiritual things, and have their senses to discern them; they see, hear, feel, taste, and savour them; and desire the sincere milk of the word, for their nourishment and growth; and have every grace implanted in them, as faith, hope, and love: and of every such an one it is said, he

doth not commit sin;
does not make it his trade and business; it is not the constant course of his life; he does not live and walk in sin, or give up himself to it; he is not without the being of it in him, or free from acts of sin in his life and conversation, but he does not so commit it as to be the servant of it, a slave unto it, or to continue in it; and that for this reason:

for his seed remaineth in him;
not the word of God, or the Gospel, though that is a seed which is sown by the ministers of it, and blessed by God, and by which he regenerates his people; and which having a place in their hearts, becomes the ingrafted word, and there abides, nor can it be rooted out; where it powerfully teaches to avoid sin, is an antidote against it, and a preservative from it: nor the Holy Spirit of God, though he is the author of the new birth, and the principle of all grace; and where he once is, he always abides; and through the power of his grace believers prevail against sin, and mortify the deeds of the body, and live: but rather the grace of the Spirit, the internal principle of grace in the soul, the new nature, or new man formed in the soul, is meant; which seminally contains all grace in it, and which, like seed, springs up and gradually increases, and always abides; and is pure and incorruptible, and neither sins itself, nor encourages sin, but opposes, checks, and prevents it:

and he cannot sin;
not that it is impossible for such a man to do acts of sin, or that it is possible for him to live without sin; for the words are not to be understood in the sense of those who plead for perfection in this life; for though the saints have perfection in Christ, yet not in themselves; they are not impeccable, they are not free from sin, neither from the being nor actings of it; sin is in them, lives in them, dwells in them, hinders all the good, and does all the mischief it can: or in such sense, as if the sins of believers were not sins; for though they are pardoned and expiated, and they are justified from them, yet they do not cease to be sins; they are equally contrary to the nature, will, and law of God, as well as the sins of others; and are oftentimes attended with more aggravated circumstances, and which God in a fatherly way takes notice of, and chastises for, and on the account of which he hides his face from them: nor does the phrase intend any particular single sin, which cannot be committed; though there are such, as sinning wilfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, or denying Christ to be the Saviour of sinners, and a sacrifice for sin, and hatred of a Christian brother as such, and sinning the sin unto death, or the unpardonable sin; neither of which can be committed by a regenerate man: nor is the meaning only, though it is a sense that will very well bear, and agrees with the context, that such persons cannot sin as unregenerate men do; that is, live in a continued course of sinning, and with pleasure, and without reluctance, and so as to lie in it, as the whole world does: but rather the meaning is, he that is born of God, as he is born of God, or that which is born of God in him, the new man, or new creature, cannot sin; for that is pure and holy; there is nothing sinful in it, nor can anything that is sinful come out of it, or be done by it; it is the workmanship of the Holy Spirit of God; it is a good work, and well pleasing: in the sight of God, who is of purer eyes than to behold sin with delight; and an incorruptible seed, which neither corrupts nor is corrupted; and though it is as yet an imperfect work, it is not impure: the reason of the impeccability of the regenerate man, as such, is

because he is born of God:
for that which is born of God in him, does, under the influence of the Spirit, power, and grace of God, preserve him from the temptations of Satan, the pollutions of the world, and the corruptions of his own heart; see ( 1 John 5:18 ) ; which the Vulgate Latin version there renders, "the generation of God", meaning regeneration, or that which is born of God, "preserveth him": this furnishes out a considerable argument for the perseverance of the saints.

Read 1 John 3:9







 
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LC627

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@Kristian Gamst you say...
"The same is it With salvation. BUT, you can take it out again and throw it away and it will be of no use. You have to take a Clear chioce to take it out."

I'm sorry, but the Gift of Salvation does not come with a return receipt attached to it.

2 Timothy 2:19 - "...The LORD knows those who are His..."
 
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Enoch111

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My point on all I have written is that you can lose salvation.
There are many who believe this, although the Bible makes it plain that children of God cannot be "unborn", but have received the GIFT of the Holy Spirit, as well as the GIFT of eternal life (and much more besides). God does not revoke these gifts, since they were given purely by His grace and on the merits of Christ alone.

Those who believe that children of God can lose their salvation do not have a full and proper understanding of all that God and Christ have accomplished for sinners purely by their grace, nor do they understand all the multi-faceted aspects of salvation which provide a GUARANTEE of glorification. So how can God guarantee glorification if a child of God can lose his salvation?

At the same time, the eternal security of the believer is NOT a license to sin (as many mistakenly believe). Please note: Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.(2 Tim 2:19)
 
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Heb 13:8

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I am under the impression that you think the flesh is born again.....The flesh wars against the spirit continually desiring to fulfill it's lustful desires and to be gratified through the things of the world rather than spiritual blessings. They who walk after the spirit will not fulfill the lust of the flesh.....when we are risen with Christ we are removed of the corruptible flesh nature and given the incorruptible spirit nature.....when we face God on the day of judgment it is our heart that will be judged not the works of our flesh. His Word says the flesh is cursed and has been condemned to death to return to the dust from which it came.
I cannot control every lustful nature of my flesh but I can crucify it daily and put it under authority of my spirit. We have 2 separate natures the flesh and the spirit. To be born of God is to be born of His spirit.

Right, so why do you believe a born again believer can become a Muslim? Explain that one again?
 

Phoneman777

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Man is body, soul, and spirit.
Genesis 2:7 says:

"God formed Man of the Dust of the ground, breathed into his nostrils the Breath of Life, and Man became a Living Soul."​

Body + Breath/Spirit = Living Soul.
There is simply no other way to interpret this verse and if we can't agree on this, then any further discussion is pointless.
(1 Thess. 5:23)"...and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless...." (Heb. 4:12) "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword,piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."
Yes, Paul is stating that he wishes that "the whole thing, parts and all" be blessed, just like we might say, "Yessir, I want interior, the exterior - the whole car detailed." Any interpretation of this verse which leads to a disharmony or destruction of the plain, unmistakable description of the proper relationship between "Body", "Spirit", and "Soul" given in Genesis 2:7 is no interpretation at all - it is ecclesiastical skulduggery. BTW, Hebrews 4:12 proves my position.
You are 'assuming' that because the body dies, the soul ceases to exist.
I make zero assumptions - that's exactly the logical conclusion of Genesis 2:7.
Your example of 'Body + Breath/Spirit =Soul' is flawed as it gives no place for mans spirit.
Stranger, you are no doubt referring to what is thought to be that "immortal aspect of man that lives on after death". The Bible says nothing of the kind. I'll respond to any verses you put up one post at a time.
Yes, one who claims to know more about the judgement that the wicked are to receive more than God does, is making yourself holier than God.
It's not being "holier than God" to repeat to others knowledge which God reveals in His Word. What you characterize as "holier than God" on my part I view as "ignorance of Scripture" on your part.
And that everlasting torment is involved is clear. (Lu. 16:28) "For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment."
The rich Man and Lazarus is a parable, in which things happen which do not in real experience, like Jotham's parable of the talking trees of Judges 9. I, by the grace of God, can pick that passage in Luke apart with surgical precision, if you're interested.
(Matt. 25:41) "....everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels"
Yes, everlasting in its result, not its process. Does "everlasting destruction" mean the destruction goes on for all eternity? No, it is everlasting in its result, not its process.

Does "everlasting salvation" and "eternal redemption" mean that Jesus will save us and redeem us again and again and again - that He'll never stop saving us and redeeming us? No, it's everlasting in its result, not its process.

Does "eternal judgment" mean "order in the court, order in the court, order in the court" for all eternity - that the judgment will never end? No, it's eternal in its result, not its process.

Sodom and Gomorrah "suffered the vengeance of eternal fire", but are Sodom and Gomorrah still burning? No, they are under the Dead Sea. It's eternal in its result, not its process.

Besides, the Bible says "our God is a consuming fire" and Isaiah 33:14 says that it is the righteous that dwell with everlasting burnings, not the wicked. The wicked are "burned up" and nothing but ashes remain.
(Obadiah 15-16) is talking about God destroying the nation of Edom. It will be as though they had not been ever a nation existing.
When an O.T. prophecy contains language that clearly goes beyond that to which the prophecy applies, it is a dual prophecy with future application, as well. This is one such prophecy, where:
  • it says, "the day of the Lord (an oft repeated reference to a last-days event) is near upon all the heathen" (since when are the Edomites considered "all" the heathen?).
  • it is predicted that "holiness" will be in Mount Zion and in the house of Jacob when Edom will be destroyed, but was there "holiness in the land" when Edom was destroyed? No, in fact the destruction came just before the First Advent of Christ when demonic activity had reached epic proportions with Satan's anticipation of the coming Messiah, which culminated with His suffering, rejection, condemnation, crucifixion, etc.
  • the houses of Jacob and Joseph shall be "fire" and "flame" in a positive sense (no way around this one)
  • it speaks of the establishment of "the Lord's kingdom" (honestly, do I really need to explain that this will not take place until the coming of Jesus?)
Therefore, the passage in Obadiah is a "dual-prophecy" which makes application to the wicked in "the day of the Lord" where their destruction will be so complete that "they shall be as though they had never existed".
Where is that in Ezekiel?
Ezekiel 28:13-19 - all scholars agree that Satan is here personified as "the king of Tyrus" and verse 19 is clear that he will cease to exist.
 
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LC627

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There are many who believe this, although the Bible makes it plain that children of God cannot be "unborn", but have received the GIFT of the Holy Spirit, as well as the GIFT of eternal life (and much more besides). God does not revoke these gifts, since they were given purely by His grace and on the merits of Christ alone.

Those who believe that children of God can lose their salvation do not have a full and proper understanding of all that God and Christ have accomplished for sinners purely by their grace, nor do they understand all the multi-faceted aspects of salvation which provide a GUARANTEE of glorification. So how can God guarantee glorification if a child of God can lose his salvation?

At the same time, the eternal security of the believer is NOT a license to sin (as many mistakenly believe). Please note: Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.(2 Tim 2:19)

very good, Enoch111
 

Heart2Soul

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Right, so why do you believe a born again believer can become a Muslim? Explain that one again?
Do you know this scripture?
"For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt."

Hebrews 6:4-6 ESV
What is your interpretation of it and who is it referring to?
 
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Dcopymope

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how many times do you want to be forgiven, i guess?
i would at least forgive them until you no longer perceive them as turds
why are you giving turds hints anyway? lol

Until I no longer perceive them as turds?.....For some, this may never happen. For some, once a turd, always a turd. There are some touchy feely Christians who don't believe that there is a war going on, that all will be "reconciled" to Christ and be saved regardless or some crap like that. The fact is though, John makes it very clear that there is a war, hell, he even describes one breaking out in heaven, and in war, there are casualties. John makes it very clear where those casualties are sent when its all said and done, and its not the place of greener pastures and streets made of gold. Some will overlook this of course, because for them, their faith is mostly about how they feel about something and their own private interpretations.
 

Heb 13:8

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Do you know this scripture?
"For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt."

Hebrews 6:4-6 ESV
What is your interpretation of it and who is it referring to?

Heb 6:4-6 and Heb 10:26-27 are actually a cross reference for the crucifixion of Christ and is using metaphorical language to describe the maturity of believers in Christ.

Not many understand that Heb 6 thought process actually begins at Heb 5:11.

Heb 5:14 But solid food is for the (mature), who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

Heb 6:1 Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to (maturity), not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God,

This has nothing to do with losing salvation, less one believes God throws believers into hell for lack of maturity, which is on the borderline of insanity.

God bless.
 
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Heart2Soul

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Heb 6:4-6 and Heb 10:26-27 are actually a cross reference for the crucifixion of Christ and is using metaphorical language to describe the maturity of believers in Christ.

Not many understand that Heb 6 thought process actually begins at Heb 5:11.

Heb 5:14 But solid food is for the (mature), who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

Heb 6:1 Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to (maturity), not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God,

This has nothing to do with losing salvation, less one believes God throws believers into hell for lack of maturity, which is on the borderline of insanity.

God bless.
Well I know I won't lose my salvation but I also am humble to admit I still stumble and sin without intent. As far as your interpretation of these scriptures above and the one I quoted I will leave it to a humble acceptance of what you believe and what I believe. God Bless!
 
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Heb 13:8

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Well I know I won't lose my salvation but I also am humble to admit I still stumble and sin without intent. As far as your interpretation of these scriptures above and the one I quoted I will leave it to a humble acceptance of what you believe and what I believe. God Bless!

Thank you. Just remember though, stumbling has nothing to do with Rom 10:9 and has everything to do with sanctification and discipline in Heb 12:4-13.
 

Taken

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Just think logical: cannot you lose a gift you have been given? You can throw it away, so surely you can lose it.
I can give you what may be the clearest verse in the Bible that tells you that you can surely lose Your salvation in Christ:

'For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.' - Hebrews 6:4-6

If you can deny that you can lose Your salvation on this verse you actually just deny it because you don't like it. It is Clear that someone who has once been enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come you have certaintly been saved. The Author of the book Writes all these things so that it is Clear to us that this person once was saved. If the Author of hebrews just mentions the possibility of losing salvation there is a reason, and that is that it can happen.

Hope I am being Clear. God bless you!

Logic is what a Carnal Mind does.
Logic requires the Carnal Mind to PICK between options, weigh the options, and choose WHICH option makes the most sense to them, that a man Concludes to trust "this" and not "that".

How does LOGIC play into a scenario, for a man who HAS ALREADY submitted, given, committed His Life to the Lord, and become Converted? Hasn't THAT man set ASIDE LOGIC of guessing, weighing between Options and Chosen to Trust the Word of God stands as the Sole TRUTH?

IOW, where does LOGIC, of a mans CARNAL MINDS Conclusion, fit into a Quickened mans spirit reliance on Christ is the Truth?

ENLIGHTMENT ~
Every man WHO is hearing the Word of God IS being enLIGHTened.

Their BEING enLIGHTENed is WHAT?
Hearing the TRUTH.

What are they Partaking IN?
Hearing the TRUTH.

Who is PROVIDING the TRUTH?
The Lord.

What is the TRUTH?
The Word of God.

What is happening to THEIR NATURAL HEART?
It is being GIFTED with measures of FAITH.

Who is the Provider of Faith?
The Lord.

Why are they called enLIGHTENed?
Because God IS LIGHT, and what they are Partaking OF IS the Receiving OF His WORD
TO; their ears
And
Partaking OF IS the Receiving OF His GIFT of FAITH; TO their natural hearts.

WHY is it NOT CALLED....CONVERTED?
Because the man HAS NOT, "ACTED" on what he has RECEIVED. (Gods Word to His Ears, and Gods Measure of Faith to His Heart)

If you recall the Lord BLESSES, both the SAVED and the UNSAVED.

The Lords WORD to the ears of a man IS a blessing TO .... in this case ... the UNSAVED.

The Lords GIFT of FAITH to a mans Heart IS a blessing TO ... in this case ... the UNSAVED.

This is a CASE of the UNSAVED....being Partakers of the Lords gifts....While still in their Natural sinful state.

It is precisely HOW a man BEGINS being PREPARED....

TO; Himself "ACT" and "CHOOSE" to give His Life to the Lord.

When ANY man "HAS" heard, "HAS" received measures of Faith....THAT MAN "HAS" partaken of the TRUTH and "HAS" partaken of the Lords Gifts, given him BY THE Lord.

It is called a Beginning, Enlightenment....

It is NOT CALLED a "CONVERSION".

IF IT WERE, "you" have neglected to Consider, the RECEIVER making a CHOICE, TO he himself, MAKING a Commitment TO the Lord.

You have decided, a man HEARING SOMETHING.....means he OPENED HIS MOUTH and made a CONFESSION of heartfelt belief......

WHEN the Scripture is simply notifying you of What the Lord HAS Done......the man has received.....AND THEN REJECTED.

Conversion IS the mans ACTION of ELECTING to RECEIVE the Lord Changing the man Spiritually within with FULL, FAITH-FULLNESS to the Lord and the Lord dwelling WITHIN the man Forever.

If a man IS receiving ENLIGHTMENT....and then REJECTS what he HAS received....that man has FALLEN from FAITH. The measures of Faith he received and the Truth he has receive to his ears......He has REJECTED!

Such a man would be better off, to have NEVER heard, NEVER received enlightment, NEVER received measures of FAITH.....

Because a Person IS NOT ACCOUNTABLE for what they have NOT KNOWN.....BUT IS ACCOUNTABLE and subject to the Consequences for What he HAS KNOWN and REJECTED.

Babies have NOT Heard or Know....They are not held Accountable for not Accepting Christ, because they Were not Enlightened.

People in the World living in complete seclusion, unaware of the rest of the world, who have NOT HEARD, are not Accountable for not Accepting Christ, because they Were not Enlightened.

It is Gods men-servants who minister scouring the World, sending HIS Word TO the World.

It is in the Last Days Gods Angelic ministers who will speak his WORD so NO man will be without Hearing, and faith from Him, that they are thus Prepared to elect to CHOOSE Him .... or not.

Enlightment DOES NOT EQUAL Conversion.

Enlightment....is gifts from God that men CAN and DO reject.
Conversion....is a man electing and choosing TO Accept the Lords gifts of Spiritual Change and His Indwelling Spirit.

God Bless,
Taken
 

Stranger

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Genesis 2:7 says:

"God formed Man of the Dust of the ground, breathed into his nostrils the Breath of Life, and Man became a Living Soul."​

Body + Breath/Spirit = Living Soul.
There is simply no other way to interpret this verse and if we can't agree on this, then any further discussion is pointless.
Yes, Paul is stating that he wishes that "the whole thing, parts and all" be blessed, just like we might say, "Yessir, I want interior, the exterior - the whole car detailed." Any interpretation of this verse which leads to a disharmony or destruction of the plain, unmistakable description of the proper relationship between "Body", "Spirit", and "Soul" given in Genesis 2:7 is no interpretation at all - it is ecclesiastical skulduggery. BTW, Hebrews 4:12 proves my position.
I make zero assumptions - that's exactly the logical conclusion of Genesis 2:7.
Stranger, you are no doubt referring to what is thought to be that "immortal aspect of man that lives on after death". The Bible says nothing of the kind. I'll respond to any verses you put up one post at a time.
It's not being "holier than God" to repeat to others knowledge which God reveals in His Word. What you characterize as "holier than God" on my part I view as "ignorance of Scripture" on your part.
The rich Man and Lazarus is a parable, in which things happen which do not in real experience, like Jotham's parable of the talking trees of Judges 9. I, by the grace of God, can pick that passage in Luke apart with surgical precision, if you're interested.
Yes, everlasting in its result, not its process. Does "everlasting destruction" mean the destruction goes on for all eternity? No, it is everlasting in its result, not its process.

Does "everlasting salvation" and "eternal redemption" mean that Jesus will save us and redeem us again and again and again - that He'll never stop saving us and redeeming us? No, it's everlasting in its result, not its process.

Does "eternal judgment" mean "order in the court, order in the court, order in the court" for all eternity - that the judgment will never end? No, it's eternal in its result, not its process.

Sodom and Gomorrah "suffered the vengeance of eternal fire", but are Sodom and Gomorrah still burning? No, they are under the Dead Sea. It's eternal in its result, not its process.

Besides, the Bible says "our God is a consuming fire" and Isaiah 33:14 says that it is the righteous that dwell with everlasting burnings, not the wicked. The wicked are "burned up" and nothing but ashes remain.
When an O.T. prophecy contains language that clearly goes beyond that to which the prophecy applies, it is a dual prophecy with future application, as well. This is one such prophecy, where:
  • it says, "the day of the Lord (an oft repeated reference to a last-days event) is near upon all the heathen" (since when are the Edomites considered "all" the heathen?).
  • it is predicted that "holiness" will be in Mount Zion and in the house of Jacob when Edom will be destroyed, but was there "holiness in the land" when Edom was destroyed? No, in fact the destruction came just before the First Advent of Christ when demonic activity had reached epic proportions with Satan's anticipation of the coming Messiah, which culminated with His suffering, rejection, condemnation, crucifixion, etc.
  • the houses of Jacob and Joseph shall be "fire" and "flame" in a positive sense (no way around this one)
  • it speaks of the establishment of "the Lord's kingdom" (honestly, do I really need to explain that this will not take place until the coming of Jesus?)
Therefore, the passage in Obadiah is a "dual-prophecy" which makes application to the wicked in "the day of the Lord" where their destruction will be so complete that "they shall be as though they had never existed".

Ezekiel 28:13-19 - all scholars agree that Satan is here personified as "the king of Tyrus" and verse 19 is clear that he will cease to exist.

As I said, your example is flawed as you ignore the spirit of man. God created the body out of dust. God breathed into that body His breath of life. The combination of the body and God's breath of life produced the soul. But the body is not the soul. And the breath of life is not the soul. The combination of body and God's breath are the soul. But the three ingredients remain distinct to God though they combine in one person. You have mans body, formed of the ground. You have man's spirit, the breath of God. You have the soul, a combination of both body and breath of God. That there is body, soul, and spirit, I have showed you but you wish to deny. See also, (Prov. 20:27) "The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly."

If (Heb. 4:12) proves your position, why didn't you show how?

To claim you know more about the correct punishment of the wicked than God does, is making yourself holier than God. And God is clear that it is an eternal punishment. See also, (Rev. 14:10-11) "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God...and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever; and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image...."

The rich man and Lazarus in (Luke 16:19-31) is not a parable. Jesus Christ is telling a true story that only He could know. If you think you can pick it apart, go ahead.

Everlasting salvation means the believer is experiencing salvation forever. Everlasting destruction or judgement means the wicked is experiencing the destruction or judgement forever.

(Is. 33:14) says the the believer who dwells with everlasting burnings. It doesn't say that nothing but ashes are left of the wicked. God is a consuming fire. We who are believers dwell eternally in His presence unharmed by that fire just as Daniel's friends did when thrown into the fire. The wicked however have a different eternal relationship with that fire.

Concerning (Obadiah 15-16) the idea of double prophecy is not the point. The point was the phrase in (16) where it says, "...and they shall be as though they had not been." Whether you want to place this before the Tribulation or during the Tribulation, doesn't matter. The fact is, 'though they had not been' speaks to the nation of Edom being removed from the earth as though they had not been. It doesn't speak to the annihilation of the spirit and soul of man. I have no problem with it speaking to the Tribulation or 'Day of the Lord'.

(Ez. 28:18-19) declares that satan will no more on the earth be a terror to the nations or people. It doesn't say anything about his eternal punishment. See again (Rev. 14:10-11) to see the eternality of the place and torment prepared for the devil and his angels.

Stranger
 

GodsGrace

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As I said, your example is flawed as you ignore the spirit of man. God created the body out of dust. God breathed into that body His breath of life. The combination of the body and God's breath of life produced the soul. But the body is not the soul. And the breath of life is not the soul. The combination of body and God's breath are the soul. But the three ingredients remain distinct to God though they combine in one person. You have mans body, formed of the ground. You have man's spirit, the breath of God. You have the soul, a combination of both body and breath of God. That there is body, soul, and spirit, I have showed you but you wish to deny. See also, (Prov. 20:27) "The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly."

If (Heb. 4:12) proves your position, why didn't you show how?

To claim you know more about the correct punishment of the wicked than God does, is making yourself holier than God. And God is clear that it is an eternal punishment. See also, (Rev. 14:10-11) "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God...and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever; and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image...."

The rich man and Lazarus in (Luke 16:19-31) is not a parable. Jesus Christ is telling a true story that only He could know. If you think you can pick it apart, go ahead.

Everlasting salvation means the believer is experiencing salvation forever. Everlasting destruction or judgement means the wicked is experiencing the destruction or judgement forever.

(Is. 33:14) says the the believer who dwells with everlasting burnings. It doesn't say that nothing but ashes are left of the wicked. God is a consuming fire. We who are believers dwell eternally in His presence unharmed by that fire just as Daniel's friends did when thrown into the fire. The wicked however have a different eternal relationship with that fire.

Concerning (Obadiah 15-16) the idea of double prophecy is not the point. The point was the phrase in (16) where it says, "...and they shall be as though they had not been." Whether you want to place this before the Tribulation or during the Tribulation, doesn't matter. The fact is, 'though they had not been' speaks to the nation of Edom being removed from the earth as though they had not been. It doesn't speak to the annihilation of the spirit and soul of man. I have no problem with it speaking to the Tribulation or 'Day of the Lord'.

(Ez. 28:18-19) declares that satan will no more on the earth be a terror to the nations or people. It doesn't say anything about his eternal punishment. See again (Rev. 14:10-11) to see the eternality of the place and torment prepared for the devil and his angels.

Stranger
Luke 16 is not a parable. True.
And I just want to say that some believe man to be a dichotomy:
Body
Soul and Spirit combined

OR

Trichotomy
Body
Soul
Spirit

Both churches I learned from believed in the trichotomy of man...which would be the theologians of those churches.

spiritsoulbody-3[1].gif