CAN WE FALL AWAY ?

[BobRyan]

Matthew 7... "The many" are on the wide road to hell -- the "few" on the narrow road.

Matthew 18 --- "Forgiveness revoked" warning is given to us in the teaching of Christ

 

[Enoch111]

We are initially saved when we come to faith.

This EVENT is the justification of the sinner by grace through faith in Christ and His finished work of redemption. So we should put these two in chronological order.

In context - the Scriptures teach that salvation is a process.

This process is the sanctification of the believer after he or she is justified. We should never confuse the two.

 

[Taken]

And there you go again meddling where you weren't included. I say this because your answer is irrelevant.

I was responding to Rollo's post #269, where he said:
"Kids are getting saved, so you tell me"

I then asked him HOW he would know WHO is saved and WHO isn't.
According to YOUR post above - I was right and Rollo was wrong.

Rollo was speaking of what a man CAN Witness, ie as I said, men have INDICATIONS, just as Scripture says, to know a man by what he does....

While also Scripture teaches, no man can truly know an others heart, that is reserved for the man himself and God.

So Scripturally you both are right.
Rollo was speaking of what a man can see.
You were speaking of what an individual man and God knows.

 

[Taken]

Actually - "utter nonsense" is YOUR position that God forces His love on us and strips us of our free will.

Now THAT'S utter nonsense . . .

LOL....again you speaking for me then calling your words utter nonsense....is laughable.

strips us of our free will

I said no such thing.

Get a q-tip and see if you can comprehend...

SOME Men EXERCISE their FREE WILL to CHOOSE to become CONVERTED!

I know this is FOREIGN TO YOU...because by your OWN TESTIMONY...."YOU NEVER CHOSE to BECOME CONVERTED"....You simply teach you KEEP trying to COOPERATE so you CAN BECOME SAVED. <--- THAT is precisely what the Jews have been doing FOR Centuries by and through their LAWS....FAILING to Comprehend the SAVIOR arrived and Converts men......WHOM such men THEMSELVES......ELECT to Become Convert(ED) BY and THROUGH Christ the Lord Jesus....

 

[Taken]

And there you go AGAIN - vomiting out another LONG-winded diatribe without ANY Scripture

Uh huh. Jesus gave Long winded speeches to crowds. Some heard and believed....many walked away in disbelief.

Already told you, what I say, is receivied by you in disbelief, and therefore IS NOT FOR YOU. It is FOR those WHO desire the TRUTH and go an VERIFY it against what the Lords Word says.

You have been Given, on numerous occasions Scripture that verifies what I say.

You ignore the Scriptures given you, respond with your Disbelief and claim the lie "no one has given you verifying Scripture.
I am not the only one who has revealed the Scriptures to you, others have as well, and now pretty much IGNORE your repeated false claims....that "no one has given you verifying Scriptures".

To back up your phony, man-made OSAS position.

There is nothing phony or man-made about the Lords Word or Scripture that He Came to Offer SALVATION NOW for any man WHO elects to ACCEPT His Gift.

Don't blame me because your Church FAILS to TEACH Salvation IS available to ANY man who TRUSTS to Believe IN HIM and "ACCEPT" His Gift.

God isn't a monster

What a bizarre comment!
The strange things your mind conjures up to say out of your mouth....that has been neither claimed or spoken of.
WEIRD!

who forces His love on us -

More utterly WEIRD comments from you to make claims FOR GOD, outside of Scripture.

Scripture teaches God Loves His Creations.
How you twist THAT into saying FORCE...is WEIRD....and then further ... Objecting to your own WORDS.... totally messed up dude.

no matter what YOU and Calvin erroneously believe.

You keep bringing up someone named "Calvin"....I don't know him or bring him up..
And can not help you with your obsession of him. Try staying on what is being discussed instead of going off on a tangent.

The Lord has provided me WITH a new heart and FULL FAITHFULNESS TO HIM, by and though HIS Indwelling Power, that KEEPS ME in FULL FAITHFULNESS Forever.

There is NO REASON for me to believe you have experienced that or could possible Understand what you have NOT Experienced...since you have testified....you did not Choose to ACCEPT His GIft of Salvation....but rely on your parents and priest doing it FOR YOU, without your choice or memory of such ceremony.

Until you can get past the following passages - which you have YET to do -

Lie...already pasted the verses you presented that speak NOTHING of a man having been Converted and then "Un-Converted".

you cannot claim OSAS as "Scriptural".

Sure I can. I have already elected to TRUST to Believe the Lords word IS TRUE.
I am not "WAITING" and "HOPING" to be "healed" of Disbelief.
I am not "HOPING" to "remain" "Healed".
I Trust the Lords Word, that His Faith gifted to me......HAS 'HEAL-ED" me....and His Indwelling Spirit/ Power is Sufficient to "KEEP me Heal_ED".

HEAL-ED....it elementary man....get it?
"ED"....
ACCOMPLISHED, EFFECTED,DONE,REALIZED!

While you dally around and KEEP HOPING to BECOME SAVED....I elected MYSELF to EXERCISE my Freewill, and call on Him and ACCEPT His GIFT of ETERNAL SALVATION.

I don't "HOPE" for what I have "ALREADY" ONCE and FOREVER, ETERNALLY Received.

It's ACCOMPLISHED! Less I should lean my ear to YOUR WORD and ACCEPT the Lord a liar....as you say...and teach....the Lords Conversion is NOT forever. And dude you should have noticed, I have rejected YOUR WORDS and YOUR TEACHING.

It is simply another man-made Protestant fairy tale . . .

You are so transparent. "If the Catholics aren't teaching it....it MUST BE WRONG!"

LOL...

Keep hanging with "your" "holy father(S) and "their teaching" and I'll Keep hanging with "my" Holy Father and His teaching.

Just a Warning to you....MY "Holy Father" is going to be shutting HIS DOOR SOON, and if you have not passed though HIS Threshold, standing on the outside pleading to get in.....will NOT cause the door to again be Opened.

Luke 13:25

 

[BreadOfLife]

This EVENT is the justification of the sinner by grace through faith in Christ and His finished work of redemption. So we should put these two in chronological order.

This process is the sanctification of the believer after he or she is justified. We should never confuse the two.

It's ALL a process because of our FREE WILL.

It is our free will that allows us to either cooperate with God's grace - or to reject that grace at ANY point along the journey. The belief that you can't fall away is an arrogant 16th century man-made invention.

 

[BreadOfLife]

LOL....again you speaking for me then calling your words utter nonsense....is laughable.
I said no such thing.
Get a q-tip and see if you can comprehend...
SOME Men EXERCISE their FREE WILL to CHOOSE to become CONVERTED!
I know this is FOREIGN TO YOU...because by your OWN TESTIMONY...."YOU NEVER CHOSE to BECOME CONVERTED"....You simply teach you KEEP trying to COOPERATE so you CAN BECOME SAVED. <--- THAT is precisely what the Jews have been doing FOR Centuries by and through their LAWS....FAILING to Comprehend the SAVIOR arrived and Converts men......WHOM such men THEMSELVES......ELECT to Become Convert(ED) BY and THROUGH Christ the Lord Jesus....

There is never a "magical" point of no return for human beings because of our free will.
At ANY point int he journey - a converted man can lose faith and be LOST forever. Our position can change as long as we have breath i us.

And, although YOU keep "LOL-ing" dancing around them, the following verses attest to this (Matt. 5:13, Matt. 7:21, Rom. 11:22, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:20-22, 2 Peter 3:17, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19).

 

[BreadOfLife]

Rollo was speaking of what a man CAN Witness, ie as I said, men have INDICATIONS, just as Scripture says, to know a man by what he does....
While also Scripture teaches, no man can truly know an others heart, that is reserved for the man himself and God.
So Scripturally you both are right.
Rollo was speaking of what a man can see.
You were speaking of what an individual man and God knows.

No - Scripturally only ONE of us is right because only GOD knows the heart.
You can form an judgement about a person's fruits - but NOT about their heart.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Uh huh. Jesus gave Long winded speeches to crowds. Some heard and believed....many walked away in disbelief.
Already told you, what I say, is receivied by you in disbelief, and therefore IS NOT FOR YOU. It is FOR those WHO desire the TRUTH and go an VERIFY it against what the Lords Word says.
You have been Given, on numerous occasions Scripture that verifies what I say.
You ignore the Scriptures given you, respond with your Disbelief and claim the lie "no one has given you verifying Scripture.
I am not the only one who has revealed the Scriptures to you, others have as well, and now pretty much IGNORE your repeated false claims....that "no one has given you verifying Scriptures".

BIG difference: Jesus always made a point and He was GOD.
You DON'T and you're NOT.

There is nothing phony or man-made about the Lords Word or Scripture that He Came to Offer SALVATION NOW for any man WHO elects to ACCEPT His Gift.

Don't blame me because your Church FAILS to TEACH Salvation IS available to ANY man who TRUSTS to Believe IN HIM and "ACCEPT" His Gift.

But that's NOT what OSAS us about, now is it??

OSAS is about Eternal Security - One Saved ALWAYS Saved.
This is an anti-Biblical invention.

Oh, by the way - "Accepting" God's gift is cooperating with His grace.
It's ALL about our cooperation with Him.

What a bizarre comment!
The strange things your mind conjures up to say out of your mouth....that has been neither claimed or spoken of.
WEIRD!
More utterly WEIRD comments from you to make claims FOR GOD, outside of Scripture.
Scripture teaches God Loves His Creations.
How you twist THAT into saying FORCE...is WEIRD....and then further ... Objecting to your own WORDS.... totally messed up dude.
You keep bringing up someone named "Calvin"....I don't know him or bring him up..
And can not help you with your obsession of him. Try staying on what is being discussed instead of going off on a tangent.
The Lord has provided me WITH a new heart and FULL FAITHFULNESS TO HIM, by and though HIS Indwelling Power, that KEEPS ME in FULL FAITHFULNESS Forever.
There is NO REASON for me to believe you have experienced that or could possible Understand what you have NOT Experienced...since you have testified....you did not Choose to ACCEPT His GIft of Salvation....but rely on your parents and priest doing it FOR YOU, without your choice or memory of such ceremony.

I was making the point that the little god YOU'VE invented for yourself (actually, Calvin did) - forces His love on His followers and strips them of their free will.
This isn't "love" - it's RAPE.

MY God - the God of Scripture - allows His creations to make the choice whether they want to love and serve Him or reject Him and serve the flesh. We have the free will to continue to serve Him or to one day walk away from Him forever (Matt. 5:13, Matt. 7:21, Rom. 11:22, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:20-22, 2 Peter 3:17, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19).

Lie...already pasted the verses you presented that speak NOTHING of a man having been Converted and then "Un-Converted".

Sure I can. I have already elected to TRUST to Believe the Lords word IS TRUE.
I am not "WAITING" and "HOPING" to be "healed" of Disbelief.
I am not "HOPING" to "remain" "Healed".
I Trust the Lords Word, that His Faith gifted to me......HAS 'HEAL-ED" me....and His Indwelling Spirit/ Power is Sufficient to "KEEP me Heal_ED".
HEAL-ED....it elementary man....get it?
"ED"....
ACCOMPLISHED, EFFECTED,DONE,REALIZED!
While you dally around and KEEP HOPING to BECOME SAVED....I elected MYSELF to EXERCISE my Freewill, and call on Him and ACCEPT His GIFT of ETERNAL SALVATION.
I don't "HOPE" for what I have "ALREADY" ONCE and FOREVER, ETERNALLY Received.
It's ACCOMPLISHED! Less I should lean my ear to YOUR WORD and ACCEPT the Lord a liar....as you say...and teach....the Lords Conversion is NOT forever. And dude you should have noticed, I have rejected YOUR WORDS and YOUR TEACHING.

You've NEVER addressed the verses I presented because you couldn't get past "Epignosis".
Epignosis is the final nail in the OSAS coffin . . .

You are so transparent. "If the Catholics aren't teaching it....it MUST BE WRONG!"

LOL...

Keep hanging with "your" "holy father(S) and "their teaching" and I'll Keep hanging with "my" Holy Father and His teaching.

Just a Warning to you....MY "Holy Father" is going to be shutting HIS DOOR SOON, and if you have not passed though HIS Threshold, standing on the outside pleading to get in.....will NOT cause the door to again be Opened.

Luke 13:25

Jesus gave SUPREME Authority on earth to His Church - that WHATEVER it ordained on earth would also be ordained in Heaven (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-10, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).
He said that whoever rejects His Church also rejects HIM and the ONE who sent Him (Luke 10:16).

Paul stated that the Church was the FULLNESS of Christ Himself (Eph. 1:22-23) and called it the "pillar and foundation of truth" (1 Tim. 3:15).

Christ didn't give this Authority to the individual - and He certainly didn't give it yo YOU or Calvin . . .

PS - Let's see if you can answer this post in 5000 words or less . . .

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Hey Breadman;

"Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand."

If people get saved, show they are saved, who are you to say differently?
They are claiming to be a servant of Jesus Christ and yet you continue to judge them.
But you judge them.
what do you have to say for yourself?

 

[Taken]

There is never a "magical" point of no return for human beings because of our free will.

Why bring nonsense into the discussion?
No one is talking about magic but you.

Try sticking to the Facts. Being Converted is a Spiritual event. You can waver and change your mind all you want. The Lord does not require your MINDS thoughts or Opinions.

When it comes to the Lords Offering of Salvation.....He specifically requires your testimony of your hearts thoughts and IF your confession Heartfully be True....He Changes your Heart....

He requires your Yes to be Yes.

He teaches a man who receives the Indwelling Holy Spirit does so Forever.

He teaches no man can take a man out of His hand.

And you teach your Mind makes the Confession and then can change To No.

And you teach your Heart, that He Changes, can change To No.

And you teach a man CAN leave out of his hand.

Those are your UnBiblical teachings in direct contrast to the Word of God.

At ANY point int he journey - a converted man can lose faith and be LOST forever.

A BELIEVER Not In Christ?
....yes, he can lose Faith.

A Converted man In Christ?
no, that is utterly False.

position can change as long as we have breath i us.

How utterly out of touch you are to comprehending the Power of the Indwelling Spirit.

And, although YOU keep "LOL-ing" dancing around them, the following verses attest to this (Matt. 5:13, Matt. 7:21, Rom. 11:22, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:20-22, 2 Peter 3:17, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19).

No they do not.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Why bring nonsense into the discussion?
No one is talking about magic but you.
Try sticking to the Facts. Being Converted is a Spiritual event. You can waver and change your mind all you want. The Lord does not require your MINDS thoughts or Opinions.
When it comes to the Lords Offering of Salvation.....He specifically requires your testimony of your hearts thoughts and IF your confession Heartfully be True....He Changes your Heart....
He requires your Yes to be Yes.
He teaches a man who receives the Indwelling Holy Spirit does so Forever.
He teaches no man can take a man out of His hand.
And you teach your Mind makes the Confession and then can change To No.
And you teach your Heart, that He Changes, can change To No.
And you teach a man CAN leave out of his hand.
Those are your UnBiblical teachings in direct contrast to the Word of God.

You put WAAAAAAY too much faith in yourself.
When have you ever known a human being to always make the right decisions??
Answer: NEVER.

Human beings stumble and fall - even those with the strongest faith.
The fact that YOU believe that you can't stumble shows your compete arrogance . . .

A BELIEVER Not In Christ?
....yes, he can lose Faith.

A Converted man In Christ?
no, that is utterly False.

Then SHOW me in Scripture where it says this.
Chapter and Verse, please.

How utterly out of touch you are to comprehending the Power of the Indwelling Spirit.

And how utterly Scripturally bankrupt YOU are because you can't back this moronic false teaching with the Word of God.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Hey Breadman;

"Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand."

If people get saved, show they are saved, who are you to say differently?
They are claiming to be a servant of Jesus Christ and yet you continue to judge them.
But you judge them.
what do you have to say for yourself?

I'm not judging a ANYBODY who believes that THEY themselves are saved.
I'm judging the words of people like YOU who declare that they "know" whether a person is saved or not.

That's NOT your call, sparky.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I'm not judging a ANYBODY who believes that THEY themselves are saved.
I'm judging the words of people like YOU who declare that they "know" whether a person is saved or not.

That's NOT your call, sparky.

And it's not your call either, Breadman.
You need to stop talking like a know it all judge of God's people.
I bet he doesn't take too kindly to that.

 

[BreadOfLife]

And it's not your call either, Breadman.
You need to stop talking like a know it all judge of God's people.
I bet he doesn't take too kindly to that.

WRONG again, sparky.

I'm not judging hearts like YOU are.
I'm judging FRUITS - actions, like we are supposed to as Christians (Matt. 7:15-20, John 7:24).

 

[Taken]

No - Scripturally only ONE of us is right because only GOD knows the heart.
You can form an judgement about a person's fruits - but NOT about their heart.

That was the point.
Two are involved in absolutely knowing...
A man And God.
The third party onlooker simply has an indication.

A third parties "indication" may or may not be absolute.

The "indication" can be:
Hearing a confession
Witnessing a water baptism
Seeing their works

And "TRUE" those are "outward" observations.

A "KEY" observation by a third party, is actually what Is Never Heard or Seen....

Which would Be....A Truly Converted Man...
Can NEVER Deny Belief in the Lord God.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[GodsGrace]

BOL

Rom 5:12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:..."

Rom 5: 18 "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. "

BG
You just stated what saves us.
Our life is in the one Man.
Jesus said I Am the Life.
He Who Believes in Me....

Believes is always in the present tense.
If we stop believing how could we still be saved?
If we are not IN Christ, the life giver,,,how could we still be saved?

 

[APAK]

The person that thinks they have ‘free-will’ to gain and lose their God- given salvation is the signature of an unbeliever that has no true salvation to begin with. They never had/have salvation and never possessed the spirit of God within them. They are carnal, naturally minded people that are still lost in their sins.

When one accepts the gift of salvation as the graces of both God and Jesus Christ, and God approves it and gives it, that person does not own their transforming heart and their salvation of it to eternal life. The spirit of God within them is not owned by that individual. A person cannot remove it by their ‘free-will’ as if gaining and losing salvation is a man-made mental operation.

The professing believer that is not saved on the other hand will always believe their so-called salvation is true and their own, and they can discard (lose, or gain salvation) whenever they want. Of course, they are at liberty to control their false salvation all day long because they have a’ heartless’ salvation of the carnal mind only.

This is the age old lie that the evil heart and mind does, it cannot help it. It makes an unsaved person believe they are their own god (with independent free-will), as was first told in the ‘garden.’

Blessings to all,

APAK

 

[BobRyan]

As much as I do enjoy reading creative writing...

The Bible actually says this --

Matthew 18 "forgiveness revoked"
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Bible warnings are real... they warn against real danger.

Romans 11
9 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

 

[APAK]

As much as I do enjoy reading creative writing...

The Bible actually says this --

Matthew 18 "forgiveness revoked"
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Bible warnings are real... they warn against real danger.

Romans 11
9 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

I presume you are addressing my post.

Creative misapplication of scripture is something I do not enjoy when I see an agenda present, to prove a false theory.

Romans 11:20-22 is about unbelievers that did not or eventually would not stand in faith to salvation as those in the OT that did not believe in the Law and the promise of the Messiah. They did not follow the faith of their Fathers who were credited with righteousness.

It has zero to do with a believer’s potential loss of salvation. It was a warning to unbelievers to belief in the gospel and be a part of the tree of Christ. The symbol here of the faithful tree in Christ, a tree where BOTH believers and unbelievers begin together in faith, on the tree. The unbelievers are soon found out and are incompatible on this tree, and. They are discarded.

Those that did not continue in belief or abide in Christ were the unbelievers as per verse 22. Believers abide in Christ regardless of their imperfect lives. They do not lose salvation because of this fact.

Now Matt 18:32-35 is clearly not about the loss of salvation of a believer. It is about forgiveness that needs to be addressed. You cannot ‘broad brush’ or morph this scripture into something you want to ‘see.’

Yes, I agree that warnings to unbelievers of not want to come to Christ and being saved need to be heeded indeed. Unfortunately many that throw these warnings about address them to believers rather than themselves, the unbelievers.

Are you a saved person that possesses the spirit of God?


Bless you,


APAK