Eternal Security

[Enoch111]

How anyone could doubt Jesus is the Messiah is a mystery to me.

That is a part of the "Mystery of Iniquity". Satan had blinded the minds of the Jewish religious leaders so that no matter what Christ did, they were wilfully blind to their true Messiah. Indeed they viewed Him contemptuously, and asserted that His miracles were done by the power of Satan!

And after God brought judgment upon Israel for this wilful blindness, they still refused to accept the Lord Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. Thus they were judicially blinded by God. See Romans 11. Actually Romans 9-11 gives you the complete picture.

However, many Jews have also believed on Christ since then, but once again, Satan has worked among them so that they choose to isolate themselves from Gentile Christians, and call themselves "Messianics" instead of Christians. This is the trend of Messianic Jews, who also wish to cling to Moses while they believe on Jesus. But the epistle to the Hebrews is written for them to teach all that you cannot have both Moses and Christ.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

That is a part of the "Mystery of Iniquity". Satan had blinded the minds of the Jewish religious leaders so that no matter what Christ did, they were wilfully blind to their true Messiah. Indeed they viewed Him contemptuously, and asserted that His miracles were done by the power of Satan!

And after God brought judgment upon Israel for this wilful blindness, they still refused to accept the Lord Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. Thus they were judicially blinded by God. See Romans 11. Actually Romans 9-11 gives you the complete picture.

However, many Jews have also believed on Christ since then, but once again, Satan has worked among them so that they choose to isolate themselves from Gentile Christians, and call themselves "Messianics" instead of Christians. This is the trend of Messianic Jews, who also wish to cling to Moses while they believe on Jesus. But the epistle to the Hebrews is written for them to teach all that you cannot have both Moses and Christ.

While I hear and understand what you are saying, I would never say that a Messianic who keeps the feasts and remains kosher are not saved. To them the New Testament is a continuation of one covenant, not a replacement. Just look at Romans 14.

 

[Enoch111]

While I hear and understand what you are saying, I would never say that a Messianic who keeps the feasts and remains kosher are not saved.

And I did not say that either. All I am saying is that they are trying to mix oil and water.

There is more than enough in the New Testament to teach saved Jews the difference between the Old and New Covenants. And when people revert to the Old Covenant, they are in fact despising the New Covenant.

 

[GodsGrace]

That is a part of the "Mystery of Iniquity". Satan had blinded the minds of the Jewish religious leaders so that no matter what Christ did, they were wilfully blind to their true Messiah. Indeed they viewed Him contemptuously, and asserted that His miracles were done by the power of Satan!

And after God brought judgment upon Israel for this wilful blindness, they still refused to accept the Lord Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. Thus they were judicially blinded by God. See Romans 11. Actually Romans 9-11 gives you the complete picture.

However, many Jews have also believed on Christ since then, but once again, Satan has worked among them so that they choose to isolate themselves from Gentile Christians, and call themselves "Messianics" instead of Christians. This is the trend of Messianic Jews, who also wish to cling to Moses while they believe on Jesus. But the epistle to the Hebrews is written for them to teach all that you cannot have both Moses and Christ.

Agreed.

 

[GodsGrace]

And I did not say that either. All I am saying is that they are trying to mix oil and water.

There is more than enough in the New Testament to teach saved Jews the difference between the Old and New Covenants. And when people revert to the Old Covenant, they are in fact despising the New Covenant.

Hebrews 6:4-6

 

[GodsGrace]

While I hear and understand what you are saying, I would never say that a Messianic who keeps the feasts and remains kosher are not saved. To them the New Testament is a continuation of one covenant, not a replacement. Just look at Romans 14.

Quick comment...
Every covenant is a continuation of a previous one.
Made better, or added to, or changed, but not replaced.

 

[aspen]

Sorry, but who really cares? Eternal security sounds like a legal term that can be dismissed at any point on some weird technocality. Real relationships transcend legalism

 

[Enoch111]

Every covenant is a continuation of a previous one.

That's not what you will find in the epistle to the Hebrews.

 

[GodsGrace]

That's not what you will find in the epistle to the Hebrews.

Agreed.
But you Will find this if you've studied the covenants.
Each covenant was progressive.
For instance the Edenic covenant was made with Adam and he failed to keep his part....
So God made a provision in the Adamic covenant,,,but He Still expects us to obey Him as Adam should have. So it's a new covenant (not THE new covenant) but retain s elements of the old.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Quick comment...
Every covenant is a continuation of a previous one.
Made better, or added to, or changed, but not replaced.

I'll have to disagree.

Galatians 4:
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written:

“Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'll have to disagree.

Galatians 4:
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written:

“Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

Exactly which two covenant's are you referring to?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Exactly which two covenant's are you referring to?

The one given on Mt. Sinai was the Old Covenant (with the Ten Commandments, Exodus 34:28) representing Ishmael. The other Covenant was the one given to Abraham that had the Seed, representing Jesus. If there was a continuation, it is this covenant that produced the Seed with Him a New Covenant of power over sin by the Holy Spirit.

Check out the chapter before...

Galatians 3: 16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

 

[GodsGrace]

The one given on Mt. Sinai was the Old Covenant (with the Ten Commandments) representing Ishmael. The other Covenant was the one given to Abraham that had the Seed, representing Jesus. If there was a continuation, it is this covenant that produced the Seed with Him a New Covenant of power over sin by the Holy Spirit.

Check out the chapter before...

Galatians 3: 16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

So you're comparing the Old or Mosaic Covenant with the New Covenant?
The covenanst are studied outside of the bible although they do quote scripture and are based on the bible.

The New Covenant makes the Mosaic Covenant BETTER, it does not replace it.
The Mosaic Covenant was a conditional covenant which required the agreement of the Israelites....I will be your God and you will be My people. The Israelites could not keep their part of the bagain,,,they sinned even while Moses was still on the mountain. The New Covenant is non-conditional and is based solely only God's will. He now gives us the strength to keep the 10 commandments because of our love for Jesus. BUT we do still have to obey the 10 commandments...so it's a continuation of the Mosaic Covenant.

The Abrahamic Covenant is also Unconditional. It states that out of the descendants of Abraham will come the people that God will gather for Himself...
God promises Abraham that he will be given land and will be the Father of a Multitude.

In the Mosaic Covenant this promise was kept.
ALSO in the New Covenant since aspects of every covenant are passed on.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

So you're comparing the Old or Mosaic Covenant with the New Covenant?
The covenanst are studied outside of the bible although they do quote scripture and are based on the bible.

The New Covenant makes the Mosaic Covenant BETTER, it does not replace it.
The Mosaic Covenant was a conditional covenant which required the agreement of the Israelites....I will be your God and you will be My people. The Israelites could not keep their part of the bagain,,,they sinned even while Moses was still on the mountain. The New Covenant is non-conditional and is based solely only God's will. He now gives us the strength to keep the 10 commandments because of our love for Jesus. BUT we do still have to obey the 10 commandments...so it's a continuation of the Mosaic Covenant.

The Abrahamic Covenant is also Unconditional. It states that out of the descendants of Abraham will come the people that God will gather for Himself...
God promises Abraham that he will be given land and will be the Father of a Multitude.

In the Mosaic Covenant this promise was kept.
ALSO in the New Covenant since aspects of every covenant are passed on.

Go back to chapter 4 and tell me what covenant is referred to as Ishmael. And what does this mean referring that covenant:

30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

 

[Episkopos]

So you're comparing the Old or Mosaic Covenant with the New Covenant?
The covenanst are studied outside of the bible although they do quote scripture and are based on the bible.

The New Covenant makes the Mosaic Covenant BETTER, it does not replace it.
The Mosaic Covenant was a conditional covenant which required the agreement of the Israelites....I will be your God and you will be My people. The Israelites could not keep their part of the bagain,,,they sinned even while Moses was still on the mountain. The New Covenant is non-conditional and is based solely only God's will. He now gives us the strength to keep the 10 commandments because of our love for Jesus. BUT we do still have to obey the 10 commandments...so it's a continuation of the Mosaic Covenant.

The Abrahamic Covenant is also Unconditional. It states that out of the descendants of Abraham will come the people that God will gather for Himself...
God promises Abraham that he will be given land and will be the Father of a Multitude.

In the Mosaic Covenant this promise was kept.
ALSO in the New Covenant since aspects of every covenant are passed on.

All covenants require a two-way agreement and performance. God's part is done....but we need to come into the full provision of Jesus in order to do as we are commanded to do.

The New Covenant is a harder covenant to keep...in the natural strength...but we have access to the power that fulfills it in Him.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

All covenants require a two-way agreement and performance. God's part is done....but we need to come into the full provision of Jesus in order to do as we are commanded to do.

The New Covenant is a harder covenant to keep...in the natural strength...but we have access to the power that fulfills it in Him.

..

 

[Helen]

All covenants require a two-way agreement and performance. God's part is done....but we need to come into the full provision of Jesus in order to do as we are commanded to do.

The New Covenant is a harder covenant to keep...in the natural strength...but we have access to the power that fulfills it in Him.

As for me and my house...I believe that God and Jesus cut covenant, and we are 'In Christ'. Therefore we keep the covenant as we abide in Christ. There is no covenant that we are required to keep of ourselves. (Maybe that was what you were saying.)


The command to us is The Great Commandment LOVE. That is what is our measure..not how well we keep the covenant.
Heb 6:18
18 " That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. "

 

[Stranger]

And yet such anti-missionaries are successful in leading people to renounce Yeshua. It has been my experience that those who know the Scriptures well are the most vulnerable.

This statement makes no sense. You call yourself of another faith. What faith?

Stranger

 

[Enoch111]

...Eternal security sounds like a legal term that can be dismissed at any point on some weird technicality. Real relationships transcend legalism

It's a good thing you said "sounds like" since it really is neither a legal term nor a technicality. "Eternal security" is another way of saying "Salvation is of the LORD".

Here's the summary:

1. All humans beings are sinners separated from God.

2. No human being can contribute one iota to his salvation.

3. Christ took upon Himself the sins of the whole world, paid the fully penalty for all our sins, and rose again for our justification.

4. God freely justifies -- declares righteous and imputes righteousness -- the one who repents and believes on the the Lord Jesus Christ.

5. Then God gives that one the GIFT of eternal life, and all that salvation includes (which is multi-faceted and which is another topic).

6. This is why all the saints are eternally secure IN and THROUGH Christ.

So this is not a mere technicality but an awesome Bible truth.

 

[gadar perets]

However, many Jews have also believed on Christ since then, but once again, Satan has worked among them so that they choose to isolate themselves from Gentile Christians, and call themselves "Messianics" instead of Christians. This is the trend of Messianic Jews, who also wish to cling to Moses while they believe on Jesus. But the epistle to the Hebrews is written for them to teach all that you cannot have both Moses and Christ.

Messianics are not clinging to Moses or the Old Covenant. They are clinging to their Creator who gave them commandments, statutes and judgments to obey for their good. They know full well that to disobey them is to their hurt. They also know full well that those commandments have been written on their hearts under the New Covenant. Christians have yet to learn that.

Are Christians that keep the two greatest commandments and nine of the Ten Commandments clinging to Moses?

Messianics are forced to separate from Christians because Christians refuse to obey several key commandments.