Eternal Security

[Stranger]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that mean to you that when the law says, "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy ...", you do not have to do what it says? That you are free to treat it like any other day and work all you want on it?


What does that mean?


The glory Yeshua had was in YHWH's plan as the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. The man Yeshua was asking his Father to bring that plan to fruition. The Father answered Yeshua's prayer and the Son was put to death.


That is the translation of one Greek text. Other Greek texts read differently. The manuscript evidence supports the reading tou haimatios tou idiou, literally, the blood of His own (Son), and not idiou haimatios, “his own blood.” God paid for our salvation with the blood of His own Son, Yeshua.

The text note at the bottom of the trinitarian NIV Study Bible gets the meaning of the verse correct: “his own blood. Lit. ‘the blood of his own one,’ a term of endearment (such as ‘his own dear one’) referring to His own Son.”

That is exactly right. The Christian is under no obligation to keep the Sabbath.

It means that those who are Christian, are dead, buried, and resurrected with Christ. The Law has no authority over a dead man. If you see yourself as a living man under the Law, then you have not been born-again. Being born-again separates you from the Law.

Sorry, you are changing Scripture now to match your agenda. (John 17:5) is clear. "which I had with thee before the world was". 'I' Jesus, had with 'thee', God, before the world was. If Jesus had not existed before the world was, He could not have made that statement.

Sorry, (Acts 20:28) is clear. (New Interlinear Greek-English New Testament) says "...the assembly of God, which he purchased with the of his own blood." (The Englishman's Greek New Testament) says, "...the assembly of God, which he purchased with the of his own blood." (NASB) says, "...the church of God which He purchased with His own blood." (NKJV) says, "...the church of God which He purchased with His own blood." The (NIV) says, "...of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood."

Thus the correct translation is 'the church of God which he bought with his own blood'. When you want to interpret to say something differnetly, go ahead, but know that is the correct interpretation. The only reason anyone would interpret it differently is because it does not fit their theology. Which means your theology is terribly flawed.

ANd you never responded to post #468.

Stranger

 

[Jun2u]

Actually, I have tasted it as well as pig meat in my unbelieving days. I gave them up when I found out my Heavenly Father considers eating such unclean flesh as abominable. He is absolutely disgusted by it.

A person specially one who is NOT a Christian will always err in theology and doctrines.

When a person teach that there is only one God he is actually teaching heresy because the Bible is replete with Scriptures, both in the Old and New Testaments, that there are at least more than one person subsisting in the Godhead namely: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Here is @gadar again teaching a lie by saying he doesn’t eat pig meat any longer because he found out it is an abomination to his Heavenly Father. Well, if he was a good son he should have searched the Bible and found that the Ceremonial Laws were completed in Christ, and that his Heavenly Father was the one who rescinded the law about eating unclean flesh.

Acts 10:10-16:
10) And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
11) And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
12) Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air,
13) And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter: kill, and eat.
14) But Peter said, Not so, Lord: for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean.
15) And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
16) This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

Note: if the number three has any spiritual value at all, it is “perfection.”

So, @gadar, someone had pointed a finger at you and said: “I thought this was a Christian Forum?”

To God Be The Glory

 

[1stCenturyLady]

A person specially one who is NOT a Christian will always err in theology and doctrines.

When a person teach that there is only one God he is actually teaching heresy because the Bible is replete with Scriptures, both in the Old and New Testaments, that there are at least more than one person subsisting in the Godhead namely: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Here is @gadar again teaching a lie by saying he doesn’t eat pig meat any longer because he found out it is an abomination to his Heavenly Father. Well, if he was a good son he should have searched the Bible and found that the Ceremonial Laws were completed in Christ, and that God has rescinded the law about eating unclean flesh.

Acts 10:10-16:
10) And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
11) And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
12) Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air,
13) And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter: kill, and eat.
14) But Peter said, Not so, Lord: for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean.
15) And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
16) This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

Note: if the number three has any spiritual value at all, it is “perfection.”

So, @gadar, someone had pointed a finger at you and said: “I thought this was a Christian Forum?”

To God Be The Glory

Remember Romans 14 and don't judge @gadar perets for keeping the old food laws, even if God did, in fact, rescind them. They were only for the Jews, as Noah was told he could eat anything that moves which would have included pork Genesis 9:3. Only clean meats were separated for sacrifices to God. It is interesting to note that like man all animals were also vegetarians until after the flood. The food laws were given to the Jews to separate them from the Gentiles, which the unclean meats represented. Leviticus 20:25-26. But when the Gentiles were no longer separated from the gospel, so the restriction on meat was lifted. Gadar is trying to serve God the best he can, even though he doesn't know the whole word of God, and takes verses out of context of the whole. It is why he doesn't understand the gospel and the Law of Liberty. He sees it as lawlessness, instead of true righteousness. Funny thing is the Law he holds to made no man righteous.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

That goes without saying.
Every promise God made to us WITHOUT OUR BEING INVOLVED...
(Adamic Covenant, Abrahamic Covenant, Davidic Covenant, New Covenant)
HE WILL certainly keep.

THIS is what is meant in
2 Timothy 2:12-13 NOT what many believe it means...that even if we are faithless to God, He will still be faithful to us...NO, He remains faithful to HIMSELF and His word.
12If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;

13If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

The OSAS always refer to this because it's not understood by them.
If we DENY God, He will surely deny us, as verse 12 states...the bible does not contradict itself.

(caps are for emphasis)

Correct. Note that the covenant of the Ten Commandments (Exodus 34:28) which included the Sabbath was not unilateral. I know you want to keep the Sabbath day, but do you really keep it? Do you rest from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday? You do nothing for your own pleasure on the Sabbath? Isaiah 58:13. If you do actually keep it, I can respect that. I know some Christians who do keep the Sabbath, then go to church on Sunday.

 

[GodsGrace]

That is exactly right. The Christian is under no obligation to keep the Sabbath.

It means that those who are Christian, are dead, buried, and resurrected with Christ. The Law has no authority over a dead man. If you see yourself as a living man under the Law, then you have not been born-again. Being born-again separates you from the Law.

Sorry, you are changing Scripture now to match your agenda. (John 17:5) is clear. "which I had with thee before the world was". 'I' Jesus, had with 'thee', God, before the world was. If Jesus had not existed before the world was, He could not have made that statement.

Sorry, (Acts 20:28) is clear. (New Interlinear Greek-English New Testament) says "...the assembly of God, which he purchased with the of his own blood." (The Englishman's Greek New Testament) says, "...the assembly of God, which he purchased with the of his own blood." (NASB) says, "...the church of God which He purchased with His own blood." (NKJV) says, "...the church of God which He purchased with His own blood." The (NIV) says, "...of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood."

Thus the correct translation is 'the church of God which he bought with his own blood'. When you want to interpret to say something differnetly, go ahead, but know that is the correct interpretation. The only reason anyone would interpret it differently is because it does not fit their theology. Which means your theology is terribly flawed.

ANd you never responded to post #468.

Stranger

You said being born again separates you from the law.
How is a born again person separated from the law?
WHAT law?

I believe that making such statements is rather dangerous. I've been listening to YouTube lately and one preacher on there said we could sin all we want and still be saved. I think his name was Stevenson or Steven Anderson...I wish I had written it down.

We go from someone like Joseph Prince, who I believe is a great teacher but he is hyper-grace but at least he says repeatedly that we are not to sin...
To some teaching that it's OK to sin because anyway God will forgive us, as if sinning is nothing.

Sinning grieves the Holy Spirit. God will always forgive us but our effort should be not to sin --- although I hope you know by now that I believe we sin every day because God is so pure.

 

[GodsGrace]

A person specially one who is NOT a Christian will always err in theology and doctrines.

When a person teach that there is only one God he is actually teaching heresy because the Bible is replete with Scriptures, both in the Old and New Testaments, that there are at least more than one person subsisting in the Godhead namely: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Here is @gadar again teaching a lie by saying he doesn’t eat pig meat any longer because he found out it is an abomination to his Heavenly Father. Well, if he was a good son he should have searched the Bible and found that the Ceremonial Laws were completed in Christ, and that his Heavenly Father was the one who rescinded the law about eating unclean flesh.

Acts 10:10-16:
10) And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
11) And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
12) Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air,
13) And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter: kill, and eat.
14) But Peter said, Not so, Lord: for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean.
15) And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
16) This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

Note: if the number three has any spiritual value at all, it is “perfection.”

So, @gadar, someone had pointed a finger at you and said: “I thought this was a Christian Forum?”

To God Be The Glory

What kind of Christian tells someone to do something that person believes to be a sin???

If @gadar perets believes he is not to eat certain meats and believes God told him not to...then so be it. For HIM eating that meat would be a sin.

Romans 14:12-23
12So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.
13Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this—not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother’s way.
14I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
15For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died.
16Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil;
17for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
18For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.
19So then we pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another.
20Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense.
21It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles.
22The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.
23But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.

 

[GodsGrace]

Correct. Note that the covenant of the Ten Commandments (Exodus 34:28) which included the Sabbath was not unilateral. I know you want to keep the Sabbath day, but do you really keep it? Do you rest from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday? You do nothing for your own pleasure on the Sabbath? Isaiah 58:13. If you do actually keep it, I can respect that. I know some Christians who do keep the Sabbath, then go to church on Sunday.

By the Covenant of the 10 Commandments you mean the Mosaic Covenant.
Correct. The Mosaic Covenant was conditional on the Israelites keeping the 10 commandments and observing the Sabbath because that was the "sign" of that covenant. It was a bi-lateral Covenant: Both God and Man made the agreement together.

I don't want to keep the Sabbath. But I respect those who do. Thou shalt keep holy the Sabbath is a commandment. Why was this one abolished and not the other 9? I'm very much on the fence (as they say) about this and am not convinced one way or the other.

The ECF began to celebrate on Sundays because that's the day of the resurrection...however I've been on threads that speak about Jesus not having died on Friday and resurrected on Sunday. And by very knowledgeable persons that know all about the Nissan days, etc. I'm not this knowledgeable and is probably the reason why I have this doubt.

I believe every day is the Lord's Day, but I do feel a special day should be set aside... Jesus also did this.

We're off topic...Eternal Security.

 

[Stranger]

You said being born again separates you from the law.
How is a born again person separated from the law?
WHAT law?

I believe that making such statements is rather dangerous. I've been listening to YouTube lately and one preacher on there said we could sin all we want and still be saved. I think his name was Stevenson or Steven Anderson...I wish I had written it down.

We go from someone like Joseph Prince, who I believe is a great teacher but he is hyper-grace but at least he says repeatedly that we are not to sin...
To some teaching that it's OK to sin because anyway God will forgive us, as if sinning is nothing.

Sinning grieves the Holy Spirit. God will always forgive us but our effort should be not to sin --- although I hope you know by now that I believe we sin every day because God is so pure.

See (Rom. 7:1-6) "Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?...."

I don't understand anyone who teaches it is ok to sin. Or anyone who teaches we can sin all we want because we are under grace. That is not what grace teaches and that is not what it means to not be under the law.

The believer is not under the Mosaic Law because he is dead, buried, and raised with Jesus Christ when he is born-again. Thus the law has no authority over him. He is still a sinner and has the Holy Spirit. He does not please God by now trying to keep the Law. He walks in the Spirit.

Stranger

 

[GodsGrace]

See (Rom. 7:1-6) "Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?...."

I don't understand anyone who teaches it is ok to sin. Or anyone who teaches we can sin all we want because we are under grace. That is not what grace teaches and that is not what it means to not be under the law.

The believer is not under the Mosaic Law because he is dead, buried, and raised with Jesus Christ when he is born-again. Thus the law has no authority over him. He is still a sinner and has the Holy Spirit. He does not please God by now trying to keep the Law. He walks in the Spirit.

Stranger

By the law, I always mean the 10 commandments.
We are required to keep them --- and by keep I don't mean perfectly like some understand. We will always be sinning.

But you see...your last sentence is the problem I see with this new thinking.
We DO please God by trying to keep the law. God has always demanded obedience.

This is not the difference between the Mosaic and New Covenants...the difference is that the New Covenant can be kept because we have the Holy Spirit dwelling in us, as you've said.

It sounds, the way you state it, that we don't have to keep the commandments.
Jesus said He did not come to abolish the law...
Mathew 5.17

I do believe the language you use could be harmful to some.
I thought of Mathew 5:19 but I know you don't fit into this although your language does to those who don't understand very well.

 

[Stranger]

By the law, I always mean the 10 commandments.
We are required to keep them --- and by keep I don't mean perfectly like some understand. We will always be sinning.

But you see...your last sentence is the problem I see with this new thinking.
We DO please God by trying to keep the law. God has always demanded obedience.

This is not the difference between the Mosaic and New Covenants...the difference is that the New Covenant can be kept because we have the Holy Spirit dwelling in us, as you've said.

It sounds, the way you state it, that we don't have to keep the commandments.
Jesus said He did not come to abolish the law...
Mathew 5.17

I do believe the language you use could be harmful to some.
I thought of Mathew 5:19 but I know you don't fit into this although your language does to those who don't understand very well.

Concerning (Matt. 5:19), yes it is wrong to teach anyone that it is ok to break any laws of God. It is not ok. It is sin, whether under the Old or New Covenant. Sin is sin. And, that is not what I am saying.

If I have not said that, yet if one wants to interpret it to mean that, that he can go and sin all he wants because he is under grace, then he has revealed sin in his life, in his heart already. In other words, if one is obeying the Law, yet in his heart he wants to go and sin all he can, what good has the Law done him before God?

Stranger

 

[GodsGrace]

Concerning (Matt. 5:19), yes it is wrong to teach anyone that it is ok to break any laws of God. It is not ok. It is sin, whether under the Old or New Covenant. Sin is sin. And, that is not what I am saying.

If I have not said that, yet if one wants to interpret it to mean that, that he can go and sin all he wants because he is under grace, then he has revealed sin in his life, in his heart already. In other words, if one is obeying the Law, yet in his heart he wants to go and sin all he can, what good has the Law done him before God?

Stranger

None.

 

[Nancy]

Concerning (Matt. 5:19), yes it is wrong to teach anyone that it is ok to break any laws of God. It is not ok. It is sin, whether under the Old or New Covenant. Sin is sin. And, that is not what I am saying.

If I have not said that, yet if one wants to interpret it to mean that, that he can go and sin all he wants because he is under grace, then he has revealed sin in his life, in his heart already. In other words, if one is obeying the Law, yet in his heart he wants to go and sin all he can, what good has the Law done him before God?

Stranger

Yes, sin is sin is sin. Far a I am concerned the 10 Commandments simply tell us what sin is. We have God's permissible will to sin but, what true Christian want's to sin? His love causes us to NOT want to sin and we do not live under any law, we follow Jesus. Just too simple I guess.

 

[Episkopos]

The 10 commandments contain both holiness laws and righteousness laws. That's why they are written on 2 separate tablets.

 

[Stranger]

None.

And I believe you are correct.

A Bible teacher years ago gave this example, and I think it applies here also. A young man goes into the military fresh from home where he as been raised right and has been overall a good young man. But now away from home, in far away lands and ports of call, with every sin available under the sun to him to enjoy, what is his conduct then? When the restraints of home and family are lifted. And no one will ever know?

Concerning this, the military does not make one a man, but it certainly will reveal the man he is.

It is for this reason I believe preachers are afraid to preach 'grace'. True grace. They always want to speak of grace with some Law added because they fear that many of their parishioners will head out the doors and into a life of sin. Yet if they do that they simply reveal a heart problem that holding them there under some Law, does nothing to help them.

Stranger

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, sin is sin is sin. Far a I am concerned the 10 Commandments simply tell us what sin is. We have God's permissible will to sin but, what true Christian want's to sin? His love causes us to NOT want to sin and we do not live under any law, we follow Jesus. Just too simple I guess.

How could anyone say that sentence?
Where does it say in the bible that we have God's permissible will to sin?


Jesus said we will be judged by our deeds...
John 5:28-29
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment."

Jesus said we are to obey the commandments, both of His word and the Father's word:
John 14:23-24
“If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.
24“He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.

 

[Episkopos]

And I believe you are correct.

A Bible teacher years ago gave this example, and I think it applies here also. A young man goes into the military fresh from home where he as been raised right and has been overall a good young man. But now away from home, in far away lands and ports of call, with every sin available under the sun to him to enjoy, what is his conduct then? When the restraints of home and family are lifted. And no one will ever know?

Concerning this, the military does not make one a man, but it certainly will reveal the man he is.

It is for this reason I believe preachers are afraid to preach 'grace'. True grace. They always want to speak of grace with some Law added because they fear that many of their parishioners will head out the doors and into a life of sin. Yet if they do that they simply reveal a heart problem that holding them there under some Law, does nothing to help them.

Stranger

...Amen....and that's where free will comes in. But the law is only for sinners. Freedom reveals the life of God and gives it room to manifest itself in the world.

So then grace and law don't mix. Otherwise grace is frustrated.

 

[Stranger]

Yes, sin is sin is sin. Far a I am concerned the 10 Commandments simply tell us what sin is. We have God's permissible will to sin but, what true Christian want's to sin? His love causes us to NOT want to sin and we do not live under any law, we follow Jesus. Just too simple I guess.

Yes, and that 10th commandment is the kicker. (Ex. 20:17) "Thou shalt not covet..." Or in other words, did you want to? Praise God the Law cannot reach us.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

...Amen....and that's where free will comes in. But the law is only for sinners. Freedom reveals the life of God and gives it room to manifest itself in the world.

So then grace and law don't mix. Otherwise grace is frustrated.

I agree. Frustration is a good word for it.

Stranger

 

[Nancy]

How could anyone say that sentence?
Where does it say in the bible that we have God's permissible will to sin?


Jesus said we will be judged by our deeds...
John 5:28-29
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment."

Jesus said we are to obey the commandments, both of His word and the Father's word:
John 14:23-24
“If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.
24“He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.

There many different "wills" of God: perfect will of God, decreed will of God,perceptive will, God's preferential (desiderative) will, God's "directive will, and others.
Bible.org: (4) There is what we might call God's "permissive will." This is what God allows, even though it is sin. God allowed Joseph's brothers to betray him, and to deceive their father, so that He might bring the Israelites (few in number) to Egypt, where God would spare them, and they would greatly multiply (Genesis 50:20). God allows man to reject the gospel, to willfully disobey His laws, to persecute the righteous, and so on. But in all of this, God is still in control, and His purposes are being accomplished. His "decretive will" often allows or permits (His permissive will) men to violate His preferential will (what gives Him pleasure) and His prescriptive will (His Word). God's permissive will is never outside His decretive will. God "permits" those things which will lead to the accomplishment of His decretive will.
The only and last thing I will say about being under "the letter of the law" - The letter brings death and the Spirit brings life-if truly saved, you will not be breaking ANY law. The Spirit lives INSIDE us now, not like the O.T. Not to mention, are an Israelite? Because they are and will always be God's chosen people, to WHOM He gave the law in the first place. The 10 commandments will NOT be broken if we live, by the Spirit the 2 Laws Jesus gave us: ''Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself."

 

[Episkopos]

Obedience to the Spirit means we have the law inwardly. Being under grace means we have no need of an external law to limit/control our actions. In fact God wants to liberate us to do as we will....but by the Spirit. This is the very opposite to before when we were controlled by our passions. Then, we needed limitations. But now, being set free from sin...we need more room to grow into.