The Problem With The Trinity

[gadar perets]

The Logos (YHVH) WAS God.

God hides a word...(davar) as it is written in Prov.25:2 Jesus is that davar (word) And that word is YHVH.

It is hidden in plain sight so that people can't see it.

This king has searched out the matter and found your doctrine false.

Heb 1:1 God [Yeshua's Father YHWH], who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
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The Son was NOT used in OT times to speak to the fathers or the prophets.

 

[bbyrd009]

"through Whom also He made the worlds"

 

[gadar perets]

"through Whom also He made the worlds"

Yes, "through whom", not "by whom" as trinitarian biased Bibles like to read.

 

[bbyrd009]

Yes, "through whom", not "by whom" as trinitarian biased Bibles like to read.

ok, seems like a split hair to me tho

 

[gadar perets]

ok, seems like a split hair to me tho

Actually, it is a gigantic difference. "By whom" implies Yeshua is the Creator and "through whom" means YHWH is the Creator. Nothing was made by Yeshua. Father YHWH spoke everything into existence all by Himself (Isaiah 44:24) using the breath of His mouth (His spoken words - Psalms 33:6). YHWH Elohim spoke and it was ( Genesis 1:3,6,9,11,14,20, and 24). YHWH did it all through the Son.
When YHWH created all things, He did it because the lamb slain before the foundation of the world (not literally, but in YHWH's plan of salvation) needed a venue or a stage, so to speak, for that to be fulfilled. Therefore, the impetus for creation was the Son. Without the Son in YHWH’s mind there would be no creation. It was done “through” the Son. At the same time, YHWH created everything “for” His Son. It was part of His plan to give all power and authority to His Son so that he would rule the entire Kingdom until he turned the rule back over to his Father (1 Corinthians 15:24-28).

 

[justbyfaith]

The logos (the Father's thoughts, plan, spoken words) became flesh (Yeshua). Yeshua dwelt among us and so did YHWH IN Messiah.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God (YHWH) was IN Messiah, reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
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God was NOT Messiah, but was IN Messiah. That is why God is the head of Messiah and why Yeshua's God is YHWH. YHWH and Yeshua will both dwell in our midst in the future (Revelation 21:22).

All of humanity is composed of spirit and soul and body (see 1 Thessalonians 5:23).

Jesus, in John 4:23-24, said that God the Father is a Spirit. Then, in John 14:7-11, He said that He was in the Father and the Father in Him; and that in this if you looked at Him you would see the Father.

I conclude that the Spirit of Jesus is the Father; and that therefore Jesus is God: and since He is God; His soul and body are also the soul and body of God (while they are also fully human). At the very least, His blood is the blood of God (Acts of the Apostles 20:28).

So then, when it says that God was in Christ reconciling the sins of the world, not imputing their trespasses to them; it is saying that the Spirit that was in the human Jesus (i.e. Jesus' Spirit) was God; even the Father (John 14:7-11).

 

[justbyfaith]

Actually, it is a gigantic difference. "By whom" implies Yeshua is the Creator and "through whom" means YHWH is the Creator. Nothing was made by Yeshua. Father YHWH spoke everything into existence all by Himself (Isaiah 44:24) using the breath of His mouth (His spoken words - Psalms 33:6). YHWH Elohim spoke and it was ( Genesis 1:3,6,9,11,14,20, and 24). YHWH did it all through the Son.
When YHWH created all things, He did it because the lamb slain before the foundation of the world (not literally, but in YHWH's plan of salvation) needed a venue or a stage, so to speak, for that to be fulfilled. Therefore, the impetus for creation was the Son. Without the Son in YHWH’s mind there would be no creation. It was done “through” the Son. At the same time, YHWH created everything “for” His Son. It was part of His plan to give all power and authority to His Son so that he would rule the entire Kingdom until he turned the rule back over to his Father (1 Corinthians 15:24-28).

John 1:3 says that Jesus is the Creator of everything...

All things were made by him: and without him was not anything made that was made.

 

[justbyfaith]

Which brings up another point: if the Logos is not a Person, why is "it" called "him" in verse 3?

 

[bbyrd009]

Actually, it is a gigantic difference. "By whom" implies Yeshua is the Creator and "through whom" means YHWH is the Creator. Nothing was made by Yeshua. Father YHWH spoke everything into existence all by Himself (Isaiah 44:24) using the breath of His mouth (His spoken words - Psalms 33:6). YHWH Elohim spoke and it was ( Genesis 1:3,6,9,11,14,20, and 24). YHWH did it all through the Son.
When YHWH created all things, He did it because the lamb slain before the foundation of the world (not literally, but in YHWH's plan of salvation) needed a venue or a stage, so to speak, for that to be fulfilled. Therefore, the impetus for creation was the Son. Without the Son in YHWH’s mind there would be no creation. It was done “through” the Son. At the same time, YHWH created everything “for” His Son. It was part of His plan to give all power and authority to His Son so that he would rule the entire Kingdom until he turned the rule back over to his Father (1 Corinthians 15:24-28).

so then perhaps you are semantically correct, but i am not seeing the change that this is supposed to manifest wadr, iow what is the point?

 

[gadar perets]

so then perhaps you are semantically correct, but i am not seeing the change that this is supposed to manifest wadr, iow what is the point?

Trinitarians teach that Yeshua is the Creator; that he made all things. They believe this because of verses that use "by him" or "by whom" such as Hebrews 1:2, Colossians 1:16, etc. Translating it that way destroys the Scriptural teaching that Yeshua's Father YHWH is our only Creator. It is because trinitarian translators believe Yeshua is the Creator, that they read him into the text of John 1:1-4. Tyndale and others that preceded the KJV didn't make that mistake and used "it" instead of "him" in that passage.

 

[justbyfaith]

So this is John 1:3?

All things were made by it: and without it was not anything made that was made?

Now you have all things being created by an impersonal force; and that God Himself is an impersonal force.

Your Christianity may as well be Buddhism.

 

[Nancy]

So this is John 1:3?

All things were made by it: and without it was not anything made that was made?

Now you have all things being created by an impersonal force; and that God Himself is an impersonal force.

Your Christianity may as well be Buddhism.

These things are Chrystal clear to me. Right on it's face even.

 

[amadeus]

So this is John 1:3?

All things were made by it: and without it was not anything made that was made?

Now you have all things being created by an impersonal force; and that God Himself is an impersonal force.

Your Christianity may as well be Buddhism.

Did he do it? Consider that he did not translate the Geneva Bible or Tynedale Bible both which predated the King James using the pronoun, "it":

"All things were made by it, and without it was made nothing that was made.
In it was life, and that life was the light of men." John 1:3-4 [Geneva Bible of 1587]

"All thinges were made by it and with out it was made nothinge that was made.
In it was lyfe and the lyfe was ye lyght of men" Tynedale Bible of 1525-6]

 

[Enoch111]

So this is John 1:3?
All things were made by it: and without it was not anything made that was made?
Now you have all things being created by an impersonal force; and that God Himself is an impersonal force.

Two things to note about this:
1. Even though the Geneva Bible has "it" instead of "him", the marginal notes make it crystal clear that (a) Jesus is God and (b) and He is of the same substance as the Father.

Note "a" -- "Christ is God before all time". So that demolishes any notion that Jesus is less than God (as touted by the JWs and other cults).

Note "b" -- "The Sone [Son] is of the same substance as the Father". So this is a double whammy against the naysayers.

2. At the same time every current English translation has "Him" in that verse. Check Bible Hub.

 

[Episkopos]

Did he do it? Consider that he did not translate the Geneva Bible or Tynedale Bible both which predated the King James using the pronoun, "it":

"All things were made by it, and without it was made nothing that was made.
In it was life, and that life was the light of men." John 1:3-4 [Geneva Bible of 1587]

"All thinges were made by it and with out it was made nothinge that was made.
In it was lyfe and the lyfe was ye lyght of men" Tynedale Bible of 1525-6]

That is the Greek "autos" which can mean him, or it. It is a loophole that is used by the modern Arianists....to deny the divinity of Jesus.

"IT" was God????

 

[justbyfaith]

That is the Greek "autos" which can mean him, or it. It is a loophole that is used by the modern Arianists....to deny the divinity of Jesus.

"IT" was God????

Yeah...it doesn't fly from where I'm sitting.

 

[gadar perets]

Two things to note about this:
1. Even though the Geneva Bible has "it" instead of "him", the marginal notes make it crystal clear that (a) Jesus is God and (b) and He is of the same substance as the Father.

Note "a" -- "Christ is God before all time". So that demolishes any notion that Jesus is less than God (as touted by the JWs and other cults).

Note "b" -- "The Sone [Son] is of the same substance as the Father". So this a a double whammy against the naysayers.

2. At the same time every current English translation has "Him" in that verse. Check Bible Hub.

The Geneva translators were honest about the logos being a thing, but they misunderstood the other NT verses concerning the Son.

 

[Enoch111]

The Geneva translators were honest about the logos being a thing, but they misunderstood the other NT verses concerning the Son.

HAHAHAHHA! This is rich! Give it up, gadar. Self-deception and self-delusion will not serve you very well.

 

[gadar perets]

That is the Greek "autos" which can mean him, or it. It is a loophole that is used by the modern Arianists....to deny the divinity of Jesus.

"IT" was God????

Using "it" is not calling God an "it". "It" refers to God's thoughts and words which are things that YHWH used when He spoke all things into existence. It does not refer to God Himself.

 

[justbyfaith]

Using "it" is not calling God an "it". "It" refers to God's thoughts and words which are things that YHWH used when He spoke all things into existence. It does not refer to God Himself.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1.

You are saying the Logos is an "it" but that in saying that you are not saying that God is an "it". But scripture testifies that the Logos is God. THINK.