Jesus and Commands

[GodsGrace]

I DO what I believe. I'm not a hypocrite.

Who said you don't?
I don't think you're a hypocrite, I just think the whole idea of
spirit
flesh
commandments
obeying
sinning

is all messed up these days.
God never changes...He's the same God that caused the flood.
He's the same God that hung on a cross.

Not so we could make statements that make it seem like we are no longer flesh so everything is OK because we're in the spirit now.

When I woke up this morning, I had flesh on me.
I also had the spirit of God dwelling somewhere within me.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Not so we could make statements that make it seem like we are no longer flesh so everything is OK because we're in the spirit now.

When Paul speaks of flesh, he is referring to one of two things that are called "flesh."

1. The body which will be changed in an instant and put on immortality. Romans 8:10

2. The other is "carnal sin nature." Romans 8:9 is referring to this flesh, not the body.

Why people can't see the difference is beyond me. Some believe verse 9 saying "we are not in the flesh" must be referring to 'after we are dead' 1 Corinthians 14:38

 

[GodsGrace]

What's the problem with the Sabbath? It's not a problem, it's a privilege :) The three "first day proof texts" that are used to "establish" Sunday sacredness (Acts 20:7; I Corinthians 16:1-2; John 20:19) are EASILY shown to be nothing of the kind. And rightly so, because Revelation 14:12 describes those who DO NOT get the Mark of the Beast as "they that keep the commandments of God" which He wrote with His own finger in stone, which means those who DO accept the Mark will be breaking God's commandments.

I agree with you that they can't be used as proof texts...they can easily be explained away.

Maybe I just have a problem with this because I worshipped on Sunday all my life.
Whoever thought of this till I began to study? I never did. Even Protestant churches worship on Sunday (I left the CC).

I just hope God is a merciful God, which I believe He is.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I agree with you that they can't be used as proof texts...they can easily be explained away.

Maybe I just have a problem with this because I worshipped on Sunday all my life.
Whoever thought of this till I began to study? I never did. Even Protestant churches worship on Sunday (I left the CC).

I just hope God is a merciful God, which I believe He is.

When he referred to '"establish" Sunday sacredness' I see that as making it a LAW OF GOD. That never happened, and he is right about that. But we are not under the law; we worship in Spirit and in truth. Sunday is a tradition - and a good one, not a replacement for the Sabbath, originally a day of rest, not worship.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Jews did that, and where did it get them? You and Bob don't understand WHY we are given the Spirit. It is idiotic to say that not being under the law means we can break it. NO! We are given another way to KEEP the righteous requirements of the law. The Spirit. But not by the old method of the LETTER of the law, but by the SPIRIT.

I just saw this.
Bob and I understand very well the difference between the spirit of the law and the letter of the law.

Plus, Bob and I are not married. There are others on this forum that agree with us so I don't know why you always mention the two of us, although I do find it an honor to be mentioned with him.

Sometimes it might be how we explain things...
It just annoys me when it gets personal...
No need for that.

 

[GodsGrace]

When Paul speaks of flesh, he is referring to one of two things that are called "flesh."

1. The body which will be changed in an instant and put on immortality. Romans 8:10

2. The other is "carnal sin nature." Romans 8:9 is referring to this flesh, not the body.

Why people can't see the difference is beyond me. Some believe verse 9 saying "we are not in the flesh" must be referring to 'after we are dead' 1 Corinthians 14:38

People see the difference ....
Give some credit!

It's when you say that we are NOT in the flesh that creates my problem.
Do you believe we no longer have the sin nature?

 

[GodsGrace]

When he referred to '"establish" Sunday sacredness' I see that as making it a LAW OF GOD. That never happened, and he is right about that. But we are not under the law; we worship in Spirit and in truth. Sunday is a tradition - and a good one, not a replacement for the Sabbath, originally a day of rest, not worship.

I do believe God has laws we're to keep.
Understand this as you may.

IF it's correct that we should be worshipping, or resting, on Saturday, then the mercy of God will have to kick in and not judge us by our doctrine but by our heart --- which is what the N.T. teaches.

As to WORSHIP and REST...the command is to remember to keep holy the Sabbath.
Keep it apart...separate...make it different from other days.

Can't get into this right now.
Must go.
But it would be interesting if you want to continue later on.

 

[GodsGrace]

@1stCenturyLady

There was another post from you I had just noticed before but I can't remember where.

You stated that you didn't know if I wanted to argue.
I don't care to argue with anyone about anything.
We're each entitled to our own beliefs.

But we can certainly DISCUSS those beliefs.
If YOU start from a premise of ARGUING, this is why we're having difficulty speaking to each other.

Happy Sunday.

 

[amadeus]

@amadeus @bbyrd009 @GodsGrace @Nancy

I DID hear a very cheery email from Jim/twinc.
He said that he has no idea why...but he was banned from this forum.

I would have thought that any forum would give a warning before a ban. We always did on all Mike's Forums. He and I did ban ( strange) people, but never without a warning.

Plus a ban is permanent...but a suspension can be three weeks, three months etc... we did more suspending than banning if possible.
Anyway John, he says that he is going to try and see if he can remember his password on SiT2
Trouble is he hasn't visited there for about 2 years and counting...so I hope that he can get on there okay.

xx

This is certainly good news. Just a little bit ago I learned of the death of @Triumph1300 wife. That brought tears to my eyes. I did not know her, but her husband caught my attention favorably since being on this forum. His pain is our pain.

Anyway it is good to know Twinc is holding on...

 

[BobRyan]

This is circular. If we have to keep the old law, we have to keep the seventh-day Sabbath.

That's creative writing "if we have to keep the old law".

Jeremiah 31:31-33 "the LAW of God written on the heart" -- is it your claim that Jeremiah was speaking about a "LAW he did not know" one that does not include "do not take God's name in vain" and "remember the Sabbath day" -- with your creative writing???

 

[BobRyan]

1 John...verse 23 says that we are to keep Jesus' commandment to love our neighbor.

Verse 24 says that we are to keep Jesus' commandments?
So which one is it? Is it ONE commandment or is it MORE?

Note that there are some creative writing efforts that have the goal of trying to get people to believe that God's Commandments are not Christ's Commandments. That Christ argues for rebellion against God's Commandments and in favor of keeping HIS (Christ's) Commandments "instead".

Thank God that the Bible does not say any such thing.

1 John 3:
23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

John 14:15 "IF you Love Me KEEP My commandments" plural.

Ex 20:6 "LOVE Me and Keep My Commandments" -- in the TEN Commandments.

1 John 5:2-3 "THIS IS the Love of God that we KEEP His Commandments"
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.


===========================

Christ and Paul both argue for the TEN --

Tradition of man --vs-- the Word of God=Commandment of God=Moses said/

Mark 7:6-13
6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men—the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”
9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”


And Paul also firm the "unit of Ten".
Eph 6:2 the 5th commandment is the "first commandment WITH a promise" in that still-valid-for-saints ... "unit of Ten"

 

[BobRyan]

The Jews did that, and where did it get them? You and Bob don't understand WHY we are given the Spirit. It is idiotic to say that not being under the law means we can break it. NO! We are given another way to KEEP the righteous requirements of the law. The Spirit. But not by the old method of the LETTER of the law, but by the SPIRIT.

false accusation ... again?

 

[BobRyan]

Including keeping the 7th day (Saturday) as the Sabbath?

How many of the Ten Commandments would you personally prefer to "edit out"?

Mark 7:6-13 - how many does Christ claim in Mark 7 that are "up for grabs" as though "any ol tradition will do" for deleting one?

===========================

Christ and Paul both argue for the TEN --

Tradition of man --vs-- the Word of God=Commandment of God=Moses said/

Mark 7:6-13
6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men—the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”
9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”


And Paul also firm the "unit of Ten".
Eph 6:2 the 5th commandment is the "first commandment WITH a promise" in that still-valid-for-saints ... "unit of Ten"

Just the Sabbath.

Creative writing alone ?

Nothing in Mark 7 says "do not keep the 4th commandment" and we all know it.

NOR does any text say that because the Ten Commandments say "Do not take God's name in vain" we should ignore that -- in order to keep the New Covenant.

God gave the Sabbath to Adam in Genesis 2:1-3 and even the "Baptist Confession of Faith" and the "Westminster Confession of Faith" and many other documents admit to this obvious Bible fact.

No text says that to honor God as Creator on His chosen day of rest is a "sign of not being under the New Covenant" or a "Sign of being under the Old Covenant". As we all know.

In fact for all eternity after the cross "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship" in the New Earth. Is 66:23

 

[BobRyan]

I have texts. I was expounding on her impertinence.

false accusation... again?

 

[BobRyan]

While there are many Sabbatarians here who simply refuse to acknowledge "the Lord's Day" (the first day of the week),

That's because Sabbath keeping Christians are big on the "sola scriptura" thing and so far not one person has given a single text says "week-day-1 is the Lord's Day". as we all know by now.

for Christians, the observance of the Lord's Day as the day of Christian worship and rest perfectly meets the Sabbath requirement.

True - but when did the Lord's Day change from the 7th day to "week day 1"?? Certainly not in the Bible.

Also, in Acts 15, Sabbath observance was excluded for the Church.

Acts 15 does not say that "Do not take God's name in vain" was "excluded for the church"
And it does not say "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy" was excluded for the church.
And it does not say "honor your father and mother" was excluded for the church

But Hebrews 4 DOES says "There REMAINS a Sabbath day for the people of God"
And Isaiah 66:23 says that for all eternity - after the cross -- in the New Earth "from SABBATH to SABBATH shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship"

I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. (Rev 1:10,11).

Christ arose on the first day of the week ("the morrow after the Sabbath"),

All agree on that point.

hence it became "the Lord's Day" on which the Lord's Table with the Lord's Supper is provided

nonsense.

1. No Bible text says "week-day-1 became the Lord's Day"
2. The Bible has Jesus and the disciples at the "Lord's Table" on Thursday evening just before Passover.
3. There is not a single text saying that every week-day-1 the "Lord's Supper" was being observed.
4. "EVERY Sabbath" - Christian Jews and Gentiles met in the synagogue for Gospel preaching in Acts 18:4

We have scriptural and historical evidence that this became the Christian sabbath.

1. No text - no not one in the NT - refers to week-day-1 as the weekly Sabbath for Christians. All references in the NT refer to the 7th day of the week.
2. Since you say you have scriptural evidence that week-day-1 became the Christian Sabbath. this would be a good time to come up with it.

Even though the apostle John was in exile, he was worshiping on the Lord's Day

And that is the 7th day of the week "the Son of man LORD of the Sabbath" Mark 2:28

, therefore he was "in the Spirit on the Lord's Day".

Agreed.

The very fact that I quoted Revelation 1:10,11 should be sufficient.

Sufficient "for what"?
A replacement for "what"?
A replacement for actually HAVING a text saying "week-day-1 is the Lord's Day"?
or "remember week-day-1 to keep it holy"?
or "meet every week-day-1 for worship or for celebrating the Lord's Supper"?

Had that been the Sabbath, it would have been called the Sabbath

You are appealing to creative writing - no text says that the Lord's Day does not refer to the seventh-day of the week. In fact most Christians claim that it did until the RCC changed it.

Had the Lord's Day been on the 7th day of the week - it would be called "the Lord's Day"

Christ did not say "the Son of Man is LORD of week-day-1"
He said "the Son of Man is LORD of the Sabbath" Mark 2:28
So John says he was in the Spirit on the "Lord's Day"

(as is the case throughout Scripture).

You ended your own argument for "the Christian Sabbath" by just admitting that the weekly Sabbath always refers to the 7th day -- and never to week-day-1, even in the NT

But the special designation of the first day of the week as "the Lord's Day" was given to John by Christ, and it has been the Christian "sabbath" ever since.

You have tried to claim that the Lord's Day is the sabbath, but that is totally incorrect. So here is what we have from the History of the Christian Church by Philip Schaff:

Here is what we have from the actual Bible on the subject of week-day-1 being the Christian Sabbath, or even week-day-1 being "the Lord's Day" ... zip, nadda, zilch, nothing.

So instead of actual scripture - your appeal is to "creative writings of man". Christ already addressed that point in Mark 7:6-13

Tradition of man --vs-- the Word of God=Commandment of God=Moses said/

Mark 7:6-13
6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men—the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”
9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

At this point you may want to be very careful how you make your case - since there are objective unbiased readers here - and they will see how it fairs as compared to the actual Word of God.

 

[BobRyan]

Some are being very obtuse. The gospel is not this hard to understand as some would make it out to be by going backwards to preaching needing to be under the old laws..

interesting "spin".

But sadly for that idea - it is "still a sin" to take God's name in vain.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I just saw this.
Bob and I understand very well the difference between the spirit of the law and the letter of the law.

Plus, Bob and I are not married. There are others on this forum that agree with us so I don't know why you always mention the two of us, although I do find it an honor to be mentioned with him.

Sometimes it might be how we explain things...
It just annoys me when it gets personal...
No need for that.

yes, you agree with phoneman777 also. Both he and Bob Ryan are Seventh-day Adventists.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

People see the difference ....
Give some credit!

It's when you say that we are NOT in the flesh that creates my problem.
Do you believe we no longer have the sin nature?

Only if you have been baptized in the Holy Spirit. What do you think being born again is all about? We have been given new natures so that we can walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh.

By your question, I see you don't understand this. How are we dead to sin if we still retain the sin nature?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

That's creative writing "if we have to keep the old law".

Jeremiah 31:31-33 "the LAW of God written on the heart" -- is it your claim that Jeremiah was speaking about a "LAW he did not know" one that does not include "do not take God's name in vain" and "remember the Sabbath day" -- with your creative writing???

He knew it. It comes from the Pentateuch. Love God with all your heart, mind and strength. Familiar?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

false accusation ... again?

So tell us?