Jesus and Commands

[1stCenturyLady]

I'll bet we agree on more than you think.

Calvinism changes the nature of God.
God does NOT change....
He is love, and mercy, and justice.

There are so many verses on this that I never know which ones to pick when speaking to them. Anyway, it makes no difference.

John 3:16 should suffice,,,but even that is not understood.

You say only CC churches are around you. Do you still attend, or what do you do?

 

[GodsGrace]

Sinning unto death is deliberate sin. Willful sin. A Christian who has been baptized in the Spirit doesn't willfully sin. 1 John 3:9. I doubt you've killed anyone lately, or stolen anything from someone, or lied, or committed adultery with anyone. Those are sins of lawlessness. A Christian doesn't want to do those things. And if they do, then they don't belong to Christ. Romans 8:9, Romans 6:2 and 1 John 3 - the whole chapter.

That does not mean we don't commit trespasses - a sin NOT unto death. A trespass is unwittingly committed. Leviticus 5:15. In other words, we don't know it is sin enough to even repent. We commit these even while walking in the Spirit. 1 John 1:7 shows them to be automatically cleansed, keeping us "sinless" in God's eyes. But, that doesn't mean that even these trespasses can't be grown out of with maturity of fruit. They fall off naturally in time with our new nature. It is these "sins" that Jesus is our advocate, not willful sins. 1 John 2:1

All sin is deliberate.
Which sin do you commit that you don't know about?
And, perhaps this is why commandments are necessary?

All those sins you've listed in your first paragraph I am doing as we speak...
It's just that your understanding of sin is different from mine.
You somehow feel you don't sin because you think you don't do these things...but we do them every day. You steal, you kill, you lie, you commit adultery.
We may not want to do them, but we do. Every day. And EVERY sin is a sin of lawlessness...an action that takes no heed of the law, as if there was no law. Instead God DID give us laws.

Jesus made them even harder to keep, but do YOU understand this? And if you do, how could you say you DO NOT lie and steal, etc. if you do this every day? Have you not reached the heart level with your sinning? Are YOU still trying to follow laws and commandments?? It seemed as though you understood this from previous posts but now I wonder.

Regarding your second paragraph,,, you DO know when you trespass.
For the explanation of sin, please read the O.P. of

Sin, Transgression, Iniquity. All the same?
Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics Forum' started by GodsGrace, Sep 14, 2018.

If we don't know we've sinned, we cannot ask forgiveness. And, yes, they are certainly forgiven. But when don't we know we sin?
Name me one sin we don't know we do....

 

[GodsGrace]

What does Colossians 2:16 mean to you? To a Seventh-day Adventist it means don't let anyone stop you from keeping the Sabbath or the food laws. But Paul meant, don't let Judaizers try to put you back under the old covenant laws. (Same as his message to the Galatians.)

You're BOTH right!

It states that we are free to worship God as we see fit and our understanding of it.
We can eat what we want...worship when we want...

But in another place, which I won't look for right now, Paul also says that we should NOT eat sacrificed meat if it will damage a believer's faith.

SDA can worship whenever they wish to. I used to be in the choir of a Nazarene church and many times we'd go to downtown Manhattan to sing in a SDA church.
They loved the music and the words and I felt at home with them.

The big problem SDA's have is that the 4th commandment is a COMMANDMENT.
How do we change a commandment so we could start worshipping on Sunday??
I DO understand their point.

P.S. Colossians 2:11-15 is also very interesting and regards what we're discussing re faith and sinning.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

All sin is deliberate.
Which sin do you commit that you don't know about?
And, perhaps this is why commandments are necessary?

No, the Bible is clear that there are sins that are unintentional, even in the Old Testament.

For instance, they were not to touch an unclean animal, dead or alive. What if they stepped on a dead mouse that was covered with sand? Was that deliberate? Be careful. Saying sin is sin is right out of the Calvinist handbook.

You steal, you kill, you lie, you commit adultery.

What in the world gave you that idea about me? I am Spirit-filled and haven't done any of those since being baptized in the Spirit 41 years ago. Actually, only one of those did I commit before then - adultery. I had good parents as a child.

Your accusations are bizarre and unfounded. Is it because you do those things and believe everyone does? Well, I don't.

 

[GodsGrace]

You say only CC churches are around you. Do you still attend, or what do you do?

I go to Mass at times.
I study with a monk about 40 minutes from my home with about 15 others.
When he mentions certain things I just shut my ears....what can I do?
But 90% of everything he says lines up with what we believe.. God is one, after all.
I go to a small bible study with a Deacon I know and about 10 or 12 persons.
I joined a forum 3 years ago so I could have some fellowship with others that believe as I do and I find that we don't speak the same "language". I'm sorry about this.

It's OK. God is everywhere.

 

[BobRyan]

Great post, as usual.
I have just recently learned about the competition between God's Law and Jesus' Law (supposedly).

As if Jesus represented a different God, or as if HE did not obey the commandments and created His own.

Jesus took the commandments at hand and brought them to a heart level...
Mathew 5:21-22
Mathew 5:27-28
Mathew 5:31-32 Here Jesus return to the ORIGINAL law of God which man had changed.

Just as men try to change God's word today.

Amen!

And Jesus repeatedly states that He only speaks the Commands of God not "His own".

John 14
10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves. ...
15 “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, the Bible is clear that there are sins that are unintentional, even in the Old Testament.

For instance, they were not to touch an unclean animal, dead or alive. What if they stepped on a dead mouse that was covered with sand? Was that deliberate? Be careful. Saying sin is sin is right out of the Calvinist handbook.

What in the world gave you that idea about me? I am Spirit-filled and haven't done any of those since being baptized in the Spirit 41 years ago. Actually, only one of those did I commit before then - adultery. I had good parents as a child.

Your accusations are bizarre and unfounded. Is it because you do those things and believe everyone does? Well, I don't.

LOL
Sacrifices in the O.T. were for unknown sins.

So you think you don't lie?
Have you ever told a white lie?
Have you ever lied to avoid an argument?
Have you ever lied so as not to give a 15 minute explanation?
I have...if you never do...you're a better woman than I'll ever be.
I've had to tell MANY lies in the past years. Mostly for an autistic granddaughter of mine.

So you think you don't steal?
Have you ever arrived late at the dentist? Did you steal his time?
Have you ever listened to gossip and maybe just agreed? Did you steal someone's reputation?
Has the florist ever put too many flowers in your arrangement and you never took them back? Did you steal the flowers?
I've done all this. I know God will forgive me for it.

So you think you don't commit adultery?
You've never seen a guy you think is cute? Is that adultery?
Do you enjoy watching a particular actor? Is that adultery?
Have you ever admired something a husband does that your husband does not do? Is that adultery?
I've done all of the above.

So, you see, maybe I DO understand sin really well.
Maybe I AM walking in the spirit and God let's me see what I'm doing.

It's those walking in the flesh that see not what they do or how it harms others and God and their fellow man.

Jesus brought sin to the heart level....He made it MORE DIFFICULT to obey God...not less difficult. He made us need God more....

 

[1stCenturyLady]

The big problem SDA's have is that the 4th commandment is a COMMANDMENT.
How do we change a commandment so we could start worshipping on Sunday??
I DO understand their point.

If you understand covenants, which you do, then you will know that every covenant has a sign. The Sabbath was the sign of the Old Covenant, and placed in the Ten Commandments - the Covenant.

We are in a New Covenant, and the old sign has been done away in place of a new sign - The Cup of the New Testament, based on the blood of Jesus.

By the history scriptures (Acts) we know they started gathering together on Sunday. But it wasn't because of a commandment. How can we who are not under the law, turn around and make new days and times and years? So it was never a commandment, just tradition, based on a weekly gathering together for worshiping Jesus. Saturday was then a time to prostelyze by going into Synagogues and other places they could witness, not a proof they were still keeping the Sabbath. Going into a prison to witness to prisoners doesn't make you a like-minded criminal also.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I go to Mass at times.
I study with a monk about 40 minutes from my home with about 15 others.
When he mentions certain things I just shut my ears....what can I do?
But 90% of everything he says lines up with what we believe.. God is one, after all.
I go to a small bible study with a Deacon I know and about 10 or 12 persons.
I joined a forum 3 years ago so I could have some fellowship with others that believe as I do and I find that we don't speak the same "language". I'm sorry about this.

It's OK. God is everywhere.

What kind of Deacon? Protestant? Myself, I go to two small churches, less that 40 members each. But, even in one of them do I find smatterings of the false doctrines from the Reformation. But, they are both Spirit-filled and let me speak my mind.

 

[BobRyan]

The big problem SDA's have is that the 4th commandment is a COMMANDMENT.
How do we change a commandment so we could start worshipping on Sunday??

That is true.

What does Colossians 2:16 mean to you? To a Seventh-day Adventist it means don't let anyone stop you from keeping the Sabbath

The Catholic Catechism, the Westminster Confession of Faith, the Baptist Confession of Faith and a great many others freely admit that ALL TEN of the TEN Commandments are included in the moral law of God "written on the heart" under the NEW Covenant.

The overly simplistic "here let me make something up about what Seventh-day Adventist believe" -- solves nothing.

The entire chapter of Col 2 is of interest "for context".. for "accuracy" and to avoid "creative writing".

Col 2 is about not listening to the traditions of man that oppose the Word of God. It is not about deleting some part of God's Word... which will come to some folks as a disappointment -- but it is true.

1. In Matthew 7 long before He went to the cross Jesus said "judge not that you be not judged" and we see the same rule in Col 2 - "unchanged" pre-cross vs post-cross.

2. There are annual Sabbaths - annual feast days in Leviticus 23 that no longer apply after the cross.

3. The efforts to oppose the "Word of God" with "making stuff up" is being refuted by Paul in Col 2. Paul is opposing "Creative writing" and in general "making stuff up" in Col 2.


Col 2
4 Now this I say lest anyone should deceive you with persuasive words. 5 For though I am absent in the flesh, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good order and the steadfastness of your faith in Christ.
6 As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, 7 rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith, as you have been taught, abounding in it with thanksgiving.
8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.
...
16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or Sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. 18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.
20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— 21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” 22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

Paul is condemning the "commandments of men" but not the commandments of God. Neither is Paul teaching that we should not drink any more, or eat food any more, or keep the Bible Sabbath.

"What matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19 -- is the teaching of Paul

 

[BobRyan]

. The Sabbath was the sign of the Old Covenant, .

Each time you "quote you" for that doctrine - you remind us all that it is not in the Bible.

No such thing as "ignore the command - Do not take God's name in vain - for that was old covenant"
No such thing as "ignore the command to keep God's Sabbath holy -- for that was old covenant"

All those teachings come from the "doctrines of man" -- they are not in the Bible.

 

[GodsGrace]

If you understand covenants, which you do, then you will know that every covenant has a sign. The Sabbath was the sign of the Old Covenant, and placed in the Ten Commandments - the Covenant.

We are in a New Covenant, and the old sign has been done away in place of a new sign - The Cup of the New Testament, based on the blood of Jesus.

By the history scripture (Acts) we know they started gathering together on Sunday. But it wasn't because of a commandment. How can we who are not under the law, turn around and make new days and times and years? So it was never a commandment, just tradition, based on a weekly gathering together for worshiping Jesus. Saturday was then a time to prostelyze by going into Synagogues and other places they could witness, not a proof they were still keeping the Sabbath. Going into a prison to witness to prisoners doesn't make you a like-minded criminal also.

I know exactly what your speaking about.
Re Acts, I mean.

I also understand about the Sabbath being the sign of the Mosaic Covenant.
It has now changed to the Eucharist, or some theologians believe baptism.
Personally, I believe it should be the Eucharist,,,or Communion,,,or the Body and Blood of Jesus without which there would be no baptism. Those that are for baptism believe we die in baptism and are reborn..but this would make baptism necessary for salvation, wouldn't it? Different thread.

Let's do what Colossians 2 states. Let us each live our conscience and serve God as HE tells us to - as long as it's in keeping with His nature and laws.

I don't believe I have any right to tell SDA they're wrong. I don't believe in soul sleep either BTW. I don't believe they're lost. I believe they're trying to save US, believing that we may be lost because we constantly break the 4th commandment.
It's nice that they want to teach us something...I have no problem with this.

 

[GodsGrace]

What kind of Deacon? Protestant? Myself, I go to two small churches, less that 40 members each. But, even in one of them do I find smatterings of the false doctrines from the Reformation. But, they are both Spirit-filled and let me speak my mind.

No such luck. He's a catholic deacon.
I must say that I know him personally (he's a neighbor of my daughter) and we're very in tune with how we believe. He's very spiritual and we have no problem discussing things. I also know some priests personally (3). With one of them I could discuss anything since he's a bit unorthodox. Another one of them is very pastorial in his ministry and good to go to for help with decisions. He helped us with my granddaughter in the beginning. In this regard I've been fortunate and is why you find me protecting catholics many times. They ARE human after all !

 

[GodsGrace]

That is true.

The Catholic Catechism, the Westminster Confession of Faith, the Baptist Confession of Faith and a great many others freely admit that ALL TEN of the TEN Commandments are included in the moral law of God "written on the heart" under the NEW Covenant.

The overly simplistic "here let me make something up about what Seventh-day Adventist believe" -- solves nothing.

The entire chapter of Col 2 is of interest "for context".. for "accuracy" and to avoid "creative writing".

Col 2 is about not listening to the traditions of man that oppose the Word of God. It is not about deleting some part of God's Word... which will come to some folks as a disappointment -- but it is true.

1. In Matthew 7 long before He went to the cross Jesus said "judge not that you be not judged" and we see the same rule in Col 2 - "unchanged" pre-cross vs post-cross.

2. There are annual Sabbaths - annual feast days in Leviticus 23 that no longer apply after the cross.

3. The efforts to oppose the "Word of God" with "making stuff up" is being refuted by Paul in Col 2. Paul is opposing "Creative writing" and in general "making stuff up" in Col 2.


Col 2
4 Now this I say lest anyone should deceive you with persuasive words. 5 For though I am absent in the flesh, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good order and the steadfastness of your faith in Christ.
6 As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, 7 rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith, as you have been taught, abounding in it with thanksgiving.
8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.
...
16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or Sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. 18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.
20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— 21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” 22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

Paul is condemning the "commandments of men" but not the commandments of God. Neither is Paul teaching that we should not drink any more, or eat food any more, or keep the Bible Sabbath.

"What matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19 -- is the teaching of Paul

I agree with the above...
But what about verse 16?
Doesn't it specifically say that we are not to be told what day to celebrate?

Will you return to the 10 commandments reasoning for the answer?
Is this the most important answer?

What about this:
The Sabbath was a ceremonial law.
Ceremonial law HAS been abolished by Jesus.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

So you think you don't lie?
Have you ever told a white lie?
Have you ever lied to avoid an argument?
Have you ever lied so as not to give a 15 minute explanation?
I have...if you never do...you're a better woman than I'll ever be.
I've had to tell MANY lies in the past years. Mostly for an autistic granddaughter of mine.

I grew up believing my daddy was the most honest man I knew, and wanted to be just like him. It is easy not to lie if you don't do things you need to lie about.

So you think you don't steal?
Have you ever arrived late at the dentist? Did you steal his time?
Have you ever listened to gossip and maybe just agreed? Did you steal someone's reputation?
Has the florist ever put too many flowers in your arrangement and you never took them back? Did you steal the flowers?
I've done all this. I know God will forgive me for it.

I'm usually early or at least on time. I allow myself to be stolen from, not the other way around.


When I hear gossip, I put a stop to it - always have. I go to the person being gossiped about and get the truth from the horses mouth. I've never met Hilary Clinton but have heard enough from her to know her character, so I believe the "gossip" and don't vote for her. Is that believing gossip, or watching the words come right out of her mouth on TV?

So you think you don't commit adultery?
You've never seen a guy you think is cute? Is that adultery?
Do you enjoy watching a particular actor? Is that adultery?
Have you ever admired something a husband does that your husband does not do? Is that adultery?
I've done all of the above.

Admiring righteousness is not adultery. When I was married, and saw a nice looking man, I would immediately shake my head hard, like rattling my brain, and the image would be dispersed. I know the meaning of adultery, and there are ways to not commit it, even in your mind. Even though I'm no longer married, I refuse to date because my ex husband is still a Christian, a weak one, but a Christian married to the mistress he left me for. He is still the last man I kissed in 2001. To kiss someone while he is alive, him married or not, would be committing adultery. I won't do it.

There is always a way of escape if you love Jesus with all your heart.

So, you see, maybe I DO understand sin really well.
Maybe I AM walking in the spirit and God let's me see what I'm doing.

It's those walking in the flesh that see not what they do or how it harms others and God and their fellow man.

Jesus brought sin to the heart level....He made it MORE DIFFICULT to obey God...not less difficult. He made us need God more....

With the Spirit, I find it easier.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

No such luck. He's a catholic deacon.
I must say that I know him personally (he's a neighbor of my daughter) and we're very in tune with how we believe. He's very spiritual and we have no problem discussing things. I also know some priests personally (3). With one of them I could discuss anything since he's a bit unorthodox. Another one of them is very pastorial in his ministry and good to go to for help with decisions. He helped us with my granddaughter in the beginning. In this regard I've been fortunate and is why you find me protecting catholics many times. They ARE human after all !

I admire Catholics over Calvinists any day of the week. It is because of their core issues. It is only the extra traditions they call "holy" that are straight from paganism. And Protestants have retained many of them. Church buildings, church steeples, robes, etc. are all straight out of pagan priests and temples.

 

[GodsGrace]

I grew up believing my daddy was the most honest man I knew, and wanted to be just like him. It is easy not to lie if you don't do things you need to lie about.



I'm usually early or at least on time. I allow myself to be stolen from, not the other way around.


When I hear gossip, I put a stop to it - always have. I go to the person being gossiped about and get the truth from the horses mouth. I've never met Hilary Clinton but have heard enough from her to know her character, so I believe the "gossip" and don't vote for her. Is that believing gossip, or watching the words come right out of her mouth on TV?



Admiring righteousness is not adultery. When I was married, and saw a nice looking man, I would immediately shake my head hard, like rattling my brain, and the image would be dispersed. I know the meaning of adultery, and there are ways to not commit it, even in your mind. Even though I'm no longer married, I refuse to date because my ex husband is still a Christian, a weak one, but a Christian married to the mistress he left me for. He is still the last man I kissed in 2001. To kiss someone while he is alive, him married or not, would be committing adultery. I won't do it.

There is always a way of escape if you love Jesus with all your heart.


With the Spirit, I find it easier.

Of course it's easier. It's done also without the spirit for atheists who have high moral values---but of course it's of no difference to God.

As to the rest, I respect your ideas and won't debate this with you.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

The Catholic Catechism, the Westminster Confession of Faith, the Baptist Confession of Faith and a great many others freely admit that ALL TEN of the TEN Commandments are included in the moral law of God "written on the heart" under the NEW Covenant.

What do I care about what they believe? I'm not affiliated with any of them. I've said this before, but you keeping cutting and pasting the same statement to me over and over again. ROFL

The entire chapter of Col 2 is of interest "for context".. for "accuracy" and to avoid "creative writing".

Col 2 is about not listening to the traditions of man that oppose the Word of God. It is not about deleting some part of God's Word... which will come to some folks as a disappointment -- but it is true.

Yes, that is what I know you to believe. Same as Messianics.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Of course it's easier. It's done also without the spirit for atheists who have high moral values---but of course it's of no difference to God.

As to the rest, I respect your ideas and won't debate this with you.

The last atheist who I let into my house stole thousands of dollars from me, my car for a whole year before caught, and never told me the truth about anything - all lies. Some moral values - but he was "nice" the whole time.

 

[GodsGrace]

I admire Catholics over Calvinists any day of the week. It is because of their core issues. It is only the extra traditions they call "holy" that are straight from paganism. And Protestants have retained many of them. Church buildings, church steeples, robes, etc. are all straight out of pagan priests and temples.

Don't we need a bldg?
The robes, etc. are good to have around. Know why? I've taught our faith to kids and it helps them to SEE the faith we have. It's a visible sign of God's presence.
It makes them remember things when they get older. Maybe some adults need this too? I don't understand how it could be harmful...