Jesus and Commands

[1stCenturyLady]

How many of the Ten Commandments would you personally prefer to "edit out"?

I've already answered this question

 

[Helen]

I've already answered this question

When they are stuck there...they are stuck there.
Maybe one day they will be able to see it!! :)

 

[Phoneman777]

Also, in Acts 15, Sabbath observance was excluded for the Church.

I just read through Acts 15. What indication is there of an exclusion?

I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day..." Christ arose on the first day of the week ("the morrow after the Sabbath"), hence it became "the Lord's Day" on which the Lord's Table with the Lord's Supper is provided weekly for Christians. We have scriptural and historical evidence that this became the Christian sabbath. Even though the apostle John was in exile, he was worshiping on the Lord's Day, therefore he was "in the Spirit on the Lord's Day".

Sunday, Easter and Christmas, are based on tradition alone - no actual verse establishes Sunday sacredness or any change in the Sabbath. The "first day" texts of Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:1-2, or John 20:19 don't establish Sunday as "the Lord's day" either. However, there are at least 3 texts proving the seventh day Sabbath is the "Lord's Day":

1. Isaiah 58:13 - "...the Sabbath...My holy day..." The Bible says the Sabbath, not Sunday, is "the Lord's holy day".

2. Mark 2:28 - "Therefore, the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath day." Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, the Lord's day.

3. Leviticus 23:37-38 - "These (the 7 yearly Jewish Feasts "sabbaths" and "holy convocation" days of rest) are the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations...Beside the (weekly) sabbaths of the LORD..." God makes a clear distinction between the Jewish feast sabbaths, which Paul says were nailed to the Cross, and the Sabbath which He wrote with His own finger in stone, which we will observe for all eternity.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

When they are stuck there...they are stuck there.
Maybe one day they will be able to see it!! :)

I have thought about that a lot, and am still perplexed. You see, I was raised Seventh-day Adventist. Then I met a man who asked me to marry him and I said, we had to be the same denomination. He was Church of Christ. He couldn't debate. In fact, over the 5 years we were married, I found he never knew enough about anything to have an opinion about anything, but I digress. LOL Anyway, he asked a friend of his to take his place in discussing the LAW which I knew well. It only took this friend from midnight to 4 in the morning, showing me scriptures in the New Testament that I had never learned in the SDA denomination to show me the difference between law and grace. At 4 am it was like a light went on. It was the Holy Spirit, opening my understanding and taking chains off me.

What I am perplexed about is, it only took the word of God 4 hours to get me to come out of 23 years of false doctrine. Why does it take some who we've shown the same scriptures to for years and years and they are still not even close to beginning to understand. All they are good at is cutting and pasting the scriptures their denomination teaches them, but without the Father's meaning of them. What is the difference between me and them? I'm no one special that the Holy Spirit should give such understanding to. Except, from that night on, I was on my way to no longer being a brain-washed denominationalist. When I don't understand something, I go to the Source, and the word of God becomes alive!

P. S. I married him, and we were in the Church of Christ for only a year. I couldn't be denominationalized into their other doctrines, though they tried. God had given me an open mind that could absorb what He means in scripture, not what a denomination says it means. He lead us to Spirit-filled people and it was like going from a dark cave out into the sunlight. Though I attend different Spirit-filled churches, I never joined a Pentecostal denomination.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

God makes a clear distinction between the Jewish feast sabbaths, which Paul says were nailed to the Cross, and the Sabbath which He wrote with His own finger in stone, which we will observe for all eternity.

2 Corinthians 3:7 "But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones

2 Corinthians 3: how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory.

Those who believe in Christ and are baptized in His Spirit, are no longer under the ministry of death. In fact, Paul said we are freed from it. Not to do evil, but to actually fulfill the righteous requirements of the eternal law of God to LOVE.

Romans 8:1-4 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

 

[Phoneman777]

Spoken like a true Seventh-day Adventist denominationalist. I now see why you believe the Ten Commandments are the laws of God that are written on the heart. By your comment, you believe Sunday worship is the mark of the beast. I recognize the signs seeing as I was raised SDA. So I don't judge you for keeping the 4th commandment as you believe. But I do judge the hypocrites who believe it is the Ten Commandments that are written on their heart, and yet do not keep the old covenant Sabbath. There is a big difference between you and them, seeing as their breaking of that one commandment they place themselves under, is breaking them all.

Whether I'm SDA, SDB, SDM, or anything else has nothing to do with anything. State your case, back it up with Scripture, and let's dialogue.
I don't know who are these "hypocrite" sabbatarians you speak of, but it's not that hard to keep the Sabbath. Don't work, focus on God and the brethren and not on bills, chores, etc. until after sunset...and REST!!!:)

Sabbath keeping is taught, not supernaturally written on our conscience

That is subjective reasoning. You are defining something "spiritually written on the heart" as "instinctive knowledge", which is not at all what the Bible implies. "Spiritually written on the heart" means that God gives you a desire to do His will, as well as the knowledge of it.

so that if you go past sundown, your conscience notifies you, and you can't go on with whatever it was you were doing.

Sounds like Sabbath hours are a burden to you..why? God's commandments are only burdensome to those who don't love Him according to 1 John 5:3, right?

But those who are baptized with the Holy Spirit love Jesus with all their heart, mind and strength, and love their neighbor as themselves - the eternal laws that ARE written on our hearts, that the Ten Commandments were merely based on, but far more complete.

Yes, Jesus came to "magnify the law, and make it honorable" according the this Messianic prophecy of Isaiah 42:21, but you seem to think that magnifying the Ten Commandment Sabbath makes it obsolete. Do reading glasses change or erase the text on the page, or simply make it appear more clear?

When you walk in the Spirit, the eternal laws of God written on our hearts do not allow us to steal, kill or lie with a clean conscience either. But our Sabbath rest is coming boldly to the throne of Grace. Hebrews 4.

That is inconsistent. Why say "but" when it comes to Sabbath? What Hebrews 4 ACTUALLY says is that those who are resting inwardly in Christ will demonstrate that outward rest by keeping the weekly Sabbath - but somehow people think it means Christ's inward rest is a SUBSTITUTE for the literal rest of the Sabbath and an excuse to forget the only commandment which begins with "Remember".

 

[Episkopos]

Whether I'm SDA, SDB, SDM, or anything else has nothing to do with anything. State your case, back it up with Scripture, and let's dialogue.
I don't know who are these "hypocrite" sabbatarians you speak of, but it's not that hard to keep the Sabbath. Don't work, focus on God and the brethren and not on bills, chores, etc. until after sunset...and REST!!!:)
That is subjective reasoning. You are defining something "spiritually written on the heart" as "instinctive knowledge" - that is ridiculous and poor exegesis. "Spiritually written on the heart" means that God gives you a desire to do His will, as well as the knowledge of it.
Sounds like Sabbath hours are a burden to you..why? God's commandments are only burdensome to those who don't love Him according to 1 John 5:3, right?
Yes, Jesus came to "magnify the law, and make it honorable" according the this Messianic prophecy of Isaiah 42:21, but you seem to think that magnifying the Ten Commandment Sabbath makes it obsolete. Do reading glasses change the text on the page, or simply make it appear more clear and legible?
That is inconsistent. Why say "but" when it comes to Sabbath? What Hebrews 4 ACTUALLY says is that those who are resting inwardly in Christ will demonstrate that outward rest by keeping the weekly Sabbath - but somehow people think it means Christ's inward rest is a SUBSTITUTE for the literal rest of the Sabbath and an excuse to forget the only commandment which begins with "Remember".

Imagine a Sabbatist on a desert island with no calendar. Now, where can he place his rest? Can he justify himself by resting on any given day? NO...he needs a sabbath fix.

So the whole point is about justifying oneself. As in....look how observant I am!

But God is not legalistic and doesn't abide they who justify themselves for any reason.

 

[Phoneman777]

Do the commandments to love Jesus with all your heart, mind and strength, and your neighbor as yourself allow for any of the nonsense you just referred to? No! That reasoning is pointless.

There is a point: to expose people who really don't have a problem with nine commandments - just the Sabbath, so they concoct all kinds of ridiculous ideas for getting rid of the Sabbath. Which one do you promote?

The commandments John is referring to in 1 John 2:3-4 are not the Ten Commandments. They are the commandments referred to in the next chapter.

Isaiah says "line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little", so how can you impose "boundaries" as to how far we can go to compare Scripture with Scripture? How do you know John isn't referring to Jesus' words about adultery and killing? Or Paul's words about stealing? John is clearly referring to the Ten Commandments, which upon love for God and our fellow man they are dependent.

1 John 3:23. Every time you use a verse about commandments written by John, including Revelation, they are those commandments "believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love your neighbor. Superimposing the Ten Commandments onto the word, "commandments," does not mean John is also referring to keeping the Sabbath. Keeping the Sabbath was the sign of the old covenant. We have a new sign of the covenant we are under, the cup of the New Testament 1 Corinthians 11:25.

So, the Sabbath was kept in the OT, temporarily suspended in the NT, and will be reinstated for all eternity when Jesus comes, right? Are you sure? There's not a single text which does away with any of the Ten Commandments in the NT. If you can find one, please share it.

 

[Phoneman777]

Imagine a Sabbatist on a desert island with no calendar. Now, where can he place his rest? Can he justify himself by resting on any given day? NO...he needs a sabbath fix.

So the whole point is about justifying oneself. As in....look how observant I am!

But God is not legalistic and doesn't abide they who justify themselves for any reason.

How dare you judge the motives of others? Do you not fear God, who says Judge not, lest ye be judged?

Legalism is "obedience" to God without love for God - an impossibility.
License is "love for God" without obedience - an impossibility.

Love for God is neither legalism nor license - it's a sincere love for Him and desire to stop doing that which made necessary the death of our beloved Savior in the first place. God's commandments are only grievous to those who hate Him, no matter what religious profession they make or what religious garb they clothe themselves.

 

[Phoneman777]

I agree with you that they can't be used as proof texts...they can easily be explained away.

Maybe I just have a problem with this because I worshipped on Sunday all my life.
Whoever thought of this till I began to study? I never did. Even Protestant churches worship on Sunday (I left the CC).

I just hope God is a merciful God, which I believe He is.

If He wasn't merciful, I'd have been a black charred spot on the ground a long time ago. Should not that mercy compel us to say, "Lord, what wilt Thou have me to do?" If He says the seventh day, shouldn't we at least be asking Him to give us the desire to do His will? I had to. Ended up losing a six figure job 15 years ago but God gave it back to me after 2 years. And He's been faithful to me ever since, though I've let Him down so many times.

What I can't figure out is that if even the arch enemy and rebel Satan depends on God every day to give him life and keep him going, what makes the Christian think God will let him starve to death or die of loneliness when he decides to do what God says is right?

 

[GodsGrace]

Note that there are some creative writing efforts that have the goal of trying to get people to believe that God's Commandments are not Christ's Commandments. That Christ argues for rebellion against God's Commandments and in favor of keeping HIS (Christ's) Commandments "instead".

Thank God that the Bible does not say any such thing.

1 John 3:
23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

John 14:15 "IF you Love Me KEEP My commandments" plural.

Ex 20:6 "LOVE Me and Keep My Commandments" -- in the TEN Commandments.

1 John 5:2-3 "THIS IS the Love of God that we KEEP His Commandments"
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.


===========================

Christ and Paul both argue for the TEN --

Tradition of man --vs-- the Word of God=Commandment of God=Moses said/

Mark 7:6-13
6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men—the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”
9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”


And Paul also firm the "unit of Ten".
Eph 6:2 the 5th commandment is the "first commandment WITH a promise" in that still-valid-for-saints ... "unit of Ten"

Great post, as usual.
I have just recently learned about the competition between God's Law and Jesus' Law (supposedly).

As if Jesus represented a different God, or as if HE did not obey the commandments and created His own.

Jesus took the commandments at hand and brought them to a heart level...
Mathew 5:21-22
Mathew 5:27-28
Mathew 5:31-32 Here Jesus return to the ORIGINAL law of God which man had changed.

Just as men try to change God's word today.

 

[GodsGrace]

yes, you agree with phoneman777 also. Both he and Bob Ryan are Seventh-day Adventists.

So? They're still brothers in Christ.
We could disagree on something and still be brothers.
They might even think I'm lost...it doesn't change that we should love them.
I have a big problem with Calvinists....I can understand other beliefs even though I might not agree with them.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Whether I'm SDA, SDB, SDM, or anything else has nothing to do with anything. State your case, back it up with Scripture, and let's dialogue.
I don't know who are these "hypocrite" sabbatarians you speak of, but it's not that hard to keep the Sabbath. Don't work, focus on God and the brethren and not on bills, chores, etc. until after sunset...and REST!!!:)
That is subjective reasoning. You are defining something "spiritually written on the heart" as "instinctive knowledge", which is not at all what the Bible implies. "Spiritually written on the heart" means that God gives you a desire to do His will, as well as the knowledge of it.
Sounds like Sabbath hours are a burden to you..why? God's commandments are only burdensome to those who don't love Him according to 1 John 5:3, right?
Yes, Jesus came to "magnify the law, and make it honorable" according the this Messianic prophecy of Isaiah 42:21, but you seem to think that magnifying the Ten Commandment Sabbath makes it obsolete. Do reading glasses change or erase the text on the page, or simply make it appear more clear?
That is inconsistent. Why say "but" when it comes to Sabbath? What Hebrews 4 ACTUALLY says is that those who are resting inwardly in Christ will demonstrate that outward rest by keeping the weekly Sabbath - but somehow people think it means Christ's inward rest is a SUBSTITUTE for the literal rest of the Sabbath and an excuse to forget the only commandment which begins with "Remember".

Yes, "remember." The Sabbath was made even before man sinned, but God had foreknowledge that he would, thus Jesus was foreordained to be the Redeemer before the foundation of the world, 1 Peter 1:13-21. God didn't rest because He was tired. The Sabbath had a higher meaning. The Sabbath is a foreshadow of Grace of which Jesus Christ is High Priest. This is the meaning behind Hebrews 4. Entering into God's rest is not the Sabbath, but putting all our cares on HIM, which the children of Israel failed to enter into. Jesus is the substance of that Sabbath rest. We rest in Him, not in our own works. We are anxious for nothing. Trusting and believing on Him was the foremost message of Jesus - not keeping the Sabbath.

Whether you keep Saturday or Sunday is irrelevant to God. You may be shocked to hear me say that, but all He wants is our TRUST IN HIM. We need to rest in Him, not a day of the week.

The "hypocrite" sabbatarians are not "sabbatarians" but those who believe the Ten Commandments are still the ultimate means of being holy, yet do not keep the 4th commandment, themselves. Unlike you. That is why I respect you more than them. You DO what you believe. God honors that, so who am I to judge what God won't.

There is a pattern in Romans 14. The weak in faith vs. the strong. Like those who are weak eat only vegetables, while those who have faith eat anything blessed by God. Likewise, in the same pattern, those who keep one day over another are weak in faith, while those who understand treat everyday alike. The weak in faith and knowledge of the full gospel are not to judge those of the gospel, as those of the gospel are not to judge those who still place themselves under the law.

Bob Ryan would call that creative writing, but I'm just showing you my understanding of Romans 14 based on studying Hebrew Semitic writing styles and patterns which helps see clearly what the Hebrew authors meant by what they write. By Paul telling us who are the weak in faith first regarding meat, it sets up the pattern for the following. Us westerners are likely to miss the true meaning of texts without this knowledge just by reading what they wrote and seeing it through western colored glasses. Or in the case of SDAs, through the denomination's colored glasses. But you have to twist scripture to contort it to what they believe.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

So? They're still brothers in Christ.
We could disagree on something and still be brothers.
They might even think I'm lost...it doesn't change that we should love them.
I have a big problem with Calvinists....I can understand other beliefs even though I might not agree with them.

We agree on something - I have a big problem with Calvinists too. They wink at sin and turn the grace of God into licentiousness, Jude 1:4. Calvinism came out of Gnosticism.

 

[GodsGrace]

Only if you have been baptized in the Holy Spirit. What do you think being born again is all about? We have been given new natures so that we can walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh.

By your question, I see you don't understand this. How are we dead to sin if we still retain the sin nature?

You keep doing it...
You say that you see that I don't understand.

MAYBE YOU don't understand??

If we no longer have a sin nature...
why do we sin?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

There is a point: to expose people who really don't have a problem with nine commandments - just the Sabbath, so they concoct all kinds of ridiculous ideas for getting rid of the Sabbath. Which one do you promote?

Read what I wrote in #335 when Bob Ryan asked which commandments of the ten do I edit out.

Isaiah says "line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little", so how can you impose "boundaries" as to how far we can go to compare Scripture with Scripture? How do you know John isn't referring to Jesus' words about adultery and killing? Or Paul's words about stealing? John is clearly referring to the Ten Commandments, which upon love for God and our fellow man they are dependent.

No, you need to study John more carefully. Also Paul. 1 John 3:23 are the commandments John is referring to, not the old covenant, but the NEW. Paul also showed the contrast between the Ten Commandments and the law of the Spirit of life in Christ in Romans 8.

So, the Sabbath was kept in the OT, temporarily suspended in the NT, and will be reinstated for all eternity when Jesus comes, right? Are you sure? There's not a single text which does away with any of the Ten Commandments in the NT. If you can find one, please share it.

The Sabbath won't be "reinstated" but will be seen to be observed by the Jews during the last days when Daniel 9:27 is fulfilled, and the partial blindness of national Israel will be removed, after the fullness of the Gentiles has come into the Church.

Colossians 2:16

 

[GodsGrace]

If He wasn't merciful, I'd have been a black charred spot on the ground a long time ago. Should not that mercy compel us to say, "Lord, what wilt Thou have me to do?" If He says the seventh day, shouldn't we at least be asking Him to give us the desire to do His will? I had to. Ended up losing a six figure job 15 years ago but God gave it back to me after 2 years. And He's been faithful to me ever since, though I've let Him down so many times.

What I can't figure out is that if even the arch enemy and rebel Satan depends on God every day to give him life and keep him going, what makes the Christian think God will let him starve to death or die of loneliness when he decides to do what God says is right?

This doesn't apply to me.
Look where I live.
I don't even have a Protestant church near me.
There is even a Mass at the CC on Saturday afternoon at 6 pm!
Go figure.

I've just recently started to understand your view on the Sabbath being a commandment we might be breaking if it WAS NOT changed by Jesus.
I certainly do not understand all the theology that comes along with this...
I just don't know. You and others that believe as you do make it sound simple...but it's not when you've worshipped on Sunday all your life.
I believe we should worship every day, but that's a cop out.
Jesus DID resurrect on Sunday...this has come to be known as the Lord's Day.

I do find Sabbath worshippers to be very intelligent and united in their stand,,,which is more than I can say for most of Protestantism.

We are a scattered lot...

 

[GodsGrace]

We agree on something - I have a big problem with Calvinists too. They wink at sin and turn the grace of God into licentiousness, Jude 1:4. Calvinism came out of Gnosticism.

I'll bet we agree on more than you think.

Calvinism changes the nature of God.
God does NOT change....
He is love, and mercy, and justice.

There are so many verses on this that I never know which ones to pick when speaking to them. Anyway, it makes no difference.

John 3:16 should suffice,,,but even that is not understood.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

You keep doing it...
You say that you see that I don't understand.

MAYBE YOU don't understand??

If we no longer have a sin nature...
why do we sin?

Sinning unto death is deliberate sin. Willful sin. A Christian who has been baptized in the Spirit doesn't willfully sin. 1 John 3:9. I doubt you've killed anyone lately, or stolen anything from someone, or lied, or committed adultery with anyone. Those are sins of lawlessness. A Christian doesn't want to do those things. And if they do, then they don't belong to Christ. Romans 8:9, Romans 6:2 and 1 John 3 - the whole chapter.

That does not mean we don't commit trespasses - a sin NOT unto death. A trespass is unwittingly committed. Leviticus 5:15. In other words, we don't know it is sin enough to even repent. We commit these even while walking in the Spirit. 1 John 1:7 shows them to be automatically cleansed, keeping us "sinless" in God's eyes. But, that doesn't mean that even these trespasses can't be grown out of with maturity of fruit. They fall off naturally in time with our new nature. It is these "sins" that Jesus is our advocate, not willful sins. 1 John 2:1

 

[1stCenturyLady]

This doesn't apply to me.
Look where I live.
I don't even have a Protestant church near me.
There is even a Mass at the CC on Saturday afternoon at 6 pm!
Go figure.

I've just recently started to understand your view on the Sabbath being a commandment we might be breaking if it WAS NOT changed by Jesus.
I certainly do not understand all the theology that comes along with this...
I just don't know. You and others that believe as you do make it sound simple...but it's not when you've worshipped on Sunday all your life.
I believe we should worship every day, but that's a cop out.
Jesus DID resurrect on Sunday...this has come to be known as the Lord's Day.

I do find Sabbath worshippers to be very intelligent and united in their stand,,,which is more than I can say for most of Protestantism.

We are a scattered lot...

What does Colossians 2:16 mean to you? To a Seventh-day Adventist it means don't let anyone stop you from keeping the Sabbath or the food laws. But Paul meant, don't let Judaizers try to put you back under the old covenant laws. (Same as his message to the Galatians.)