Limited Atonement VS Universal Atonement

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Mjh29

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Zip, right over your head. But, from your Avatar, I can expect nothing else.

Don't you know that we can do nothing without God? But we have to want God MORE than we want our sin. Then and only then does God take away our sin.
So.. we have to save ourselves from our sins, right? What is the point of God?
 

H. Richard

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Zip, right over your head. But, from your Avatar, I can expect nothing else.

Don't you know that we can do nothing without God? But we have to want God MORE than we want our sin. Then and only then does God take away our sin.

***
People have made an idol out of the so called Christian church which is no longer based on the work of Jesus on the cross but based on their becoming like God (See what Satan said to Eve) and what they can get out of it.

I see you wish to discount the tragic story and that shows you do not have the love that a child of God has. I have compassion for those that the false gospel send to hell but the religious do not care. And I am sure you will send others to hell; because you can't see that people that have been convicted of their sins look to God to save them from their sinful self (flesh) and in your theology that is what you have to do for yourself.

Just like those that preach the prosperity gospel you build up a hope that is not realized.

But you will answer to God for yourself just as I do and my hope is in Jesus, not my flesh Just as Paul said we have no confidence in our flesh.
 

H. Richard

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Unfortunate story and you blame overcomers like me. You merely have a form of godliness, but deny the power. And I see by your previous post you believe the blood of Jesus merely covers our sin while we keep having no power over them. That is the vilest of false doctrines..

I never said that and you know it. I have said that the shed blood of Jesus PAID for the sins of the whole world. They are gone never to be seen by God again if a person places their faith (trust) in what God has done for them. BUT if they reject what He has done and replace it with what they do God will remember that they discounted His Son's work on the cross and replaced it with there own.

Based on what you said above which is a lie (You sinned). You don't listen to anything others say because you are too busy wanting to placate your ego by saying you are sinless in the flesh and trying to put down what they believe.

So you are an OVERCOMER. No you are not. You just think you are. Not funny how you want to substitute your works for the work of Jesus on the cross.

Jesus Christ was/is the only one that overcame the world and He did it for all that will place their faith in His work on the cross.
 

1stCenturyLady

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So.. we have to save ourselves from our sins, right? What is the point of God?

We can do nothing without God. We must surrender to Christ. With your background, this is going to sound very foreign to you. I would suggest trying a different theology, because the one you are in is false and it shows.
 
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H. Richard

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Thanks for sharing this example. I begin every day in prayer asking God to forgive me for what I am. So this wretchedness is my starting point seeking God's grace and power over sin. So while I believe Christians can arrive at a place where we don't break the Ten Commandments outwardly, we are plagued inwardly by the thoughts and imaginations of the flesh/mind that harass us throughout the day, and even in our dreams at times. But in the power of the Holy Spirit, we can keep these temptations at bay where they do not become sin unless we indulge them.
Here's my approach to walking in the Spirit.

“Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.” (2 Corinthians 10:5–6)

We censor every impure thought or imagination. And change the channel in our thinking on any thought that does not conform to obedience to Christ.

And we replace it with:

“Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.” (Philippians 4:8)

Knowing Jesus is God and God is love. Jesus is lord of our lives when love rules our thoughts and actions.


***
You have to understand that those who are convicted of their sins are not looking for a religion that requires their ability to stop sinning in their flesh. They are looking for God to save them from their sinful flesh (self).
 
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Dave L

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***
You have to understand that those who are convicted of their sins are not looking for a religion that requires their ability to stop sinning in their flesh. They are looking for God to save them from their sinful flesh (self).
Isn't this what God does? God raises our human spirit from the dead and baptizes us in the Holy Spirit. And we live victorious lives above the cravings of the mind/flesh and body. All things are new in Christ.

“Wherefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature: the old things are passed away; behold, they are become new.” (2 Corinthians 5:17)
 
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1stCenturyLady

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***
You have to understand that those who are convicted of their sins are not looking for a religion that requires their ability to stop sinning in their flesh. They are looking for God to save them from their sinful flesh (self).

Wow! You have described yourself in this verse, profoundly.

2 Timothy 4:3 "3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths."

What you want is God to remove the condemnation of your sin WHILE you keep disobeying Him.

He removes the desire to sin altogether, so we can walk in the Spirit He gives us after we TRULY repent. It is not a formula of saying words you don't really mean. All you are interested in is removing the punishment for your sins you love to keep committing, even though you've been convicted they are wrong, then find teachers to tell you what you want to hear.
 
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1stCenturyLady

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Isn't this what God does? God raises our human spirit from the dead and baptizes us in the Holy Spirit. And we live victorious lives above the cravings of the mind/flesh and body. All things are new in Christ.

“Wherefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature: the old things are passed away; behold, they are become new.” (2 Corinthians 5:17)

Only those who have actually been baptized in the Spirit can say this and mean it, for they live it.
 
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Mjh29

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We can do nothing without God. We must surrender to Christ. With your background, this is going to sound very foreign to you. I would suggest trying a different theology, because the one you are in is false and it shows.

right... because the bible time and time again says we need to save ourselves, right?
 

1stCenturyLady

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yes. but responsibility and ability are the the same thing.

Wrong, God does not throw and catch the lifeline at the same time as Reformed Theology teaches. We are responsible to catch the lifeline thrown toward us. God doesn't catch it for us. But He has given us the measure of faith needed to catch it if we choose to. The Bible teaches free will, Reformed Theology skips that part.
 
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Enoch111

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The Bible teaches free will, Reformed Theology skips that part.
No point banging your head against a wall. Those who hold to Reformed Theology actually believe that they have God's salvation figured out. After all they are "the elect"!

But Reformed Theology begins with a false premise (or several false premises), and therefore ends up with false conclusion, and a false Gospel.
 
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1stCenturyLady

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No point banging your head against a wall. Those who hold to Reformed Theology actually believe that they have God's salvation figured out. After all they are "the elect"!

But Reformed Theology begins with a false premise (or several false premises), and therefore ends up with false conclusion, and a false Gospel.

It is not only false, but dangerous.
 
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Dave L

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No point banging your head against a wall. Those who hold to Reformed Theology actually believe that they have God's salvation figured out. After all they are "the elect"!

But Reformed Theology begins with a false premise (or several false premises), and therefore ends up with false conclusion, and a false Gospel.
I'm curious. What are these false premises? Even a few would do. (I'm not Reformed but know what they believe and it sounds as though you do not).
 

Enoch111

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I'm curious. What are these false premises? Even a few would do. (I'm not Reformed but know what they believe and it sounds as though you do not).
If you will read and study the Westminster Confession of Faith, you will discover those false premises for yourself.
 
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Dave L

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If you will read and study the Westminster Confession of Faith, you will discover those false premises for yourself.
That's the problem. I only see a couple of inaccuracies. What do you see from your studies?
 

H. Richard

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Are we responsible for accepting or rejecting Christ. YES!

The children of God ACCEPT what Jesus did on the cross and place their faith in it. They do not reject His work on the cross that saves sinners.

More and more the answer to this discussion is found in Jesus' story of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector.

Luke 18:10-14
10 "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself,'God, I thank You that I am not like other men — extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector.
12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.'

13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!'
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."
NKJV

I see you as the Pharisee since all you do is proclaim your ability to not sin. You don't say much about the cross. As for me I am trusting in God to save me by His work on the cross. I proclaim God's work for salvation and you proclaim your own.
That is just what the Pharisee is doing. He is certainly not humble. Does not have the Fruits of the Spirits:

Gal 5:22-25
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
NKJV

By the way you must be walking in the flesh since all you say and talk about is that your sinful flesh does not sin any longer. Your faith is in your claim that you no longer sin in the flesh. You seem to have confidence in your flesh's ability to not sin Paul didn't have confidence in his flesh and neither do I.
Phil 3:3
3 For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh,
NKJV

But you have placed you confidence in your flesh. Therefore it is you who are walking in the flesh.
 

1stCenturyLady

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The children of God ACCEPT what Jesus did on the cross and place their faith in it. They do not reject His work on the cross that saves sinners.

More and more the answer to this discussion is found in Jesus' story of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector.

Luke 18:10-14
10 "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself,'God, I thank You that I am not like other men — extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector.
12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.'

13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!'
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."
NKJV

I see you as the Pharisee since all you do is proclaim your ability to not sin. You don't say much about the cross. As for me I am trusting in God to save me by His work on the cross. I proclaim God's work for salvation and you proclaim your own.
That is just what the Pharisee is doing. He is certainly not humble. Does not have the Fruits of the Spirits:

Gal 5:22-25
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
NKJV

By the way you must be walking in the flesh since all you say and talk about is that your sinful flesh does not sin any longer. Your faith is in your claim that you no longer sin in the flesh. You seem to have confidence in your flesh's ability to not sin Paul didn't have confidence in his flesh and neither do I.
Phil 3:3
3 For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh,
NKJV

But you have placed you confidence in your flesh. Therefore it is you who are walking in the flesh.

What I believe is beyond your ability to understand. 1 Corinthians 2:14
 

1stCenturyLady

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I am saying that God has created a salvation that sins sinners (the ungodly). It doesn't make their flesh sinless nor does it give them the power to not sin in the flesh. I have been SET FREE of this body of sin. It still sins but thanks to God it is covered by the shed blood of His Son which is a FREE GIFT of salvation.

And I see by your previous post you believe the blood of Jesus merely covers our sin while we keep having no power over them. That is the vilest of false doctrines.

I never said that and you know it.

Yes, you said that and you know it.