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Featured Limited Atonement VS Universal Atonement

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Dave L, Sep 29, 2018.

  1. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

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    I said that the saints BEFORE Jesus paid for the sins of the flesh ,according to the word of God, God only COVERED (passed OVER) their sins (covered them until) and that is why they were in paradise in the earth where Jesus went for three days and set them free. He could do that then because He just paid for them. For you since you can't seem to understand English, that means they could not go into heaven until their sins were paid for on the cross, period.

    Are you a Democrat? They are good at taking things out of context to promote the lie.

    You have lied about what I said and therefore you have sinned. So much for your ability to not sin.

    Have a great day.

    Good bye.
     
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  2. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

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    Have a wonderful day.
     
  3. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    Interesting way of putting it!
     
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  4. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Romans 4:1-8, Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 11:5-6, Titus 3:4-7.

    Salvation is through faith alone. I cannot bring about the transformation of heart that is salvation by giving $5 to a poor man; and if I give $1,000,000 it is no different.

    The only thing that can bring about this transformation is faith alone in Jesus Christ alone (not my works). See 2 Corinthians 5:17.

    Works come about because I am transformed; but the transformation comes through faith alone.
     
  5. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    There’s a reason why the words “faith alone“ appear only ONCE in ALL of Scripture.
    It occurs in James 2:24, where it says explicitly:
    You see that a person is justified by WORKS and NOT by faith alone.

    James is talking about belief here, in context. He precedes this passage in verse 19 by stating that even the DEMONS believe – and anybody who does that is NO better off than they are.

    The entire 2nd chapter of the Epistle of James is about how Faith = Belief + Works (obedience)
    You cannot have one without the other that is pleasing to God.

    Other than James 2:24 – “Faith alone” was an invention of Martin Luther’s . . .
     
  6. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    See Romans 4:6.
     
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  7. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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  8. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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  9. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    And, did you notice that the man was penitent? He was RESPONDING to God's call.
    He wasn't just sitting there, depending on God to "do the work".
     
  10. LC627

    LC627 Well-Known Member

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  11. LC627

    LC627 Well-Known Member

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    True faith is a fruitful faith. Works (obedience/fruit) are evidences of living faith.
     
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  12. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    No - James is telling his readers that works are an essential ELEMENT of faith - not just an "after effect".

    He says that simple "belief" is worthless because even tge DEMONS do that much.
     
  13. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    Show that snippet in CONTEXT with what Paul is saying.

    Eph. 2:4-9
    But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

    Paul is saying that nothing we DID got us TO faith. That is a gift from God. We STILL have to respond to that gift and Cooperate with it.

    Blurting our phrases of Scripture is a lot like a silly Facebook meme. Without proper context – they are worthless.
     
  14. LC627

    LC627 Well-Known Member

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    Of course it is a gift, a gift isn't something we earn or else it wouldn't be a gift. You basically agreed with me that salvation isn't by works because if I'm not mistaken these verses are on salvation ;)
     
  15. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Here is how you save yourself through the works of the law...you must be perfect in your life (keeping the law impeccably) from the moment of your conception into all of eternity (Galatians 3:10-13, James 2:10, Matthew 5:48)...

    (As a three-year-old, I thought that I had my t's crossed and my i's dotted as my mother listed the commandments. But commandment #10 got me. Every one of us has wanted something that didn't belong to us, before we got saved.)

    ...You can try to do it that way...or you can realize that Jesus lived a perfect life and then died in your place, taking the penalty for your sin. Thus His righteousness is applied to your account; because your sin was applied to His account as He took the righteous wrath of God upon Himself, that belonged to you...He didn't deserve to be punished...you did. You didn't deserve to go to heaven...He did. But He was punished so that you can go to heaven. Theologically it is called substitution or the divine exchange.

    Also, if anyone is going to insist that they are going to be saved through their works, Jesus is clear on the matter in John 6:28-29, in saying that the only work that will save you is a simple faith in the One whom God hath sent...and that is all that is required.

    Now faith produces results in the life of anyone who truly believes...see 2 Corinthians 5:17.

    True believers have the love of the Lord in their hearts...Romans 5:5, Luke 7:36-50, 1 John 4:19...and this love is the fulfilling of the law...Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14...and it is a practical love...1 John 3:17-18.

    However we do not obtain this love by doing some good deed like giving $5 to the poor...or even $1,000,000 wouldn't cut it. This transformation is effected through faith in what Jesus did for you on the Cross, not by any work of righteousness which you have done or will do (Titus 3:4-7).

    For He said from the Cross, "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit." and the same Spirit was poured out on the early church on the day of Pentecost and has been in every believer ever since. God provided His Spirit and His blood in order to deal with the sin in our lives...see Matthew 1:21 and Titus 2:14...however this righteousness is first imputed to us apart from works...see Romans 4:6.

    We are declared righteous through faith in Christ' shed blood (Romans 5:9, Romans 5:1, Romans 3:25)...and this righteousness is our identity in Christ even when we blow it...Romans 4:5. So then, knowing that your identity is that you are righteous in Christ and that this cannot be changed or compromised by sin...the exhortation is that you begin to live like you are who the Lord says you are...that you begin to live like you are righteous in Him...for you are the righteousness of God in Him...2 Corinthians 5:21.

    And also, it is impossible for God to lie; and therefore, when God declares you to be righteous, it means that you are righteous...see 1 John 3:7.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018 at 1:39 PM
  16. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    You're missing the point. The argument was that WE didn't have to do ANYTHING.
    That s false.

    A gift can be accepted or rejected. Love that is forced on someone is RAPE.
    Without our response and cooperation with God's grace - we cannot be saved.
     
  17. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    And the Bible shows us over and over that even a "True Believer" can fall away and LOSE everything . . .

    Romans 11:22
    “See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you REMAIN in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”
    Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation. How can they lose what they never had?

    Hebrews 10:26-27
    “If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
    This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

    2 Peter 2:20-22
    For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
    For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.

    Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

    Matt. 5:13
    You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
    This one is self-explanatory - even to a blind, deaf and dumb person . . .

    1 Cor. 9:27
    "I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."
    Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into sin.

    2 Peter 3:17
    Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
    Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.

    1 John 2:24
    See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.
    This is an admonition to try to remain faithful.

    Rev. 3:5
    He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
    God cannot blot out a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.

    Rev. 22:19
    And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
    How can God take away somebody’s share of heaven if they never had it to begin with? This is about CHRISTIANS who may or may NOT make it into Heaven.
     
  18. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    It is the ones who receive the whole counsel of God (and therefore heed the warnings given that you have mentioned above) who are recipients of the promises on eternal security (such as John 5:24, John 6:47, John 10:27-30, and Hebrews 13:5, Matthew 28:20).

    The fear of the LORD is the prescribed safeguard against falling away (Jeremiah 32:38-40): if you fear falling away, chances are you are not going to; because your fear of falling away will keep you in the safe zone.

    He has set us in a large room.

    The fear of leaving that room keeps us near the center of the room for the most part. It is only those who lack the fear of the LORD who venture near the edges. Those who don't venture near the edges, don't have the possibility of going over them.
     
  19. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    The same heat that melts the butter hardens the clay.

    When the butter melts, did it make a choice that it was going to melt because it wanted to?

    When the clay hardens, did it make the choice to harden because that is what it wanted to do?

    Perhaps.

    However, we know that the butter melting and the clay hardening is a response based on what the butter or clay is made out of...

    The butter cannot harden and the clay cannot melt when they are exposed to the heat of the gospel message.
     
  20. LC627

    LC627 Well-Known Member

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    No one said it is forced, those who are convicted of their sins repent and joyfully come to the Lord.
     
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