Limited Atonement VS Universal Atonement

[BreadOfLife]

The same heat that melts the butter hardens the clay.

When the butter melts, did it make a choice that it was going to melt because it wanted to?
When the clay hardens, did it make the choice to harden because that is what it wanted to do?

Perhaps.

However, we know that the butter melting and the clay hardening is a response based on what the butter or clay is made out of...
The butter cannot harden and the clay cannot melt when they are exposed to the heat of the gospel message.

Bad analogy – REALLY bad.

Butter and clay don’t have the ability to reason – humans DO.
Butter and clay don’t have the ability to make choices – humans DO.

The ENTIRE Gospel message is about God’s free gift of love and salvation – and whether or not WE will CHOOSE to follow Christ.
This is the crux of the Gospel:

Luke 9:23
And He was saying to them all, "If anyone wishes to come after me, HE must deny HIMSELF, and take up HIS cross daily and follow Me.

Without free will – there is NO repentance, NO obedience and NO salvation.

 

[BreadOfLife]

No one said it is forced, those who are convicted of their sins repent and joyfully come to the Lord.

Absolutely.

Many, however, will choose NOT to remain with Him.
(Rom. 11:22, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet. 2:20-22,Matt. 5:13, 1 Cor. 9:27, 2 Peter 3:17, 1 John 2:24, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19)

 

[justbyfaith]

Bad analogy – REALLY bad.

Butter and clay don’t have the ability to reason – humans DO.
Butter and clay don’t have the ability to make choices – humans DO.

The ENTIRE Gospel message is about God’s free gift of love and salvation – and whether or not WE will CHOOSE to follow Christ.
This is the crux of the Gospel:

Luke 9:23
And He was saying to them all, "If anyone wishes to come after me, HE must deny HIMSELF, and take up HIS cross daily and follow Me.

Without free will – there is NO repentance, NO obedience and NO salvation.

Then there is the parable of the wheat and the tares (Matthew 13:24-30, Matthew 13:36-43)...the wheat bear fruit and are gathered into His barn...the tares do not bear fruit and are gathered to be thrown into the fire.

What makes the wheat wheat, and the tares, tares? the wheat was planted by the Master, and the tares were planted by the enemy of the Master.

The wheat bears fruit because it is wheat, and the tares do not because they are tares...whether they bear fruit or not, in the end, is the evidence of what they always were from the beginning.

 

[farouk]

Then there is the parable of the wheat and the tares (Matthew 13:24-30, Matthew 13:36-43)...the wheat bear fruit and are gathered into His barn...the tares do not bear fruit and are gathered to be thrown into the fire.

What makes the wheat wheat, and the tares, tares? the wheat was planted by the Master, and the tares were planted by the enemy of the Master.

The wheat bears fruit because it is wheat, and the tares do not because they are tares...whether they bear fruit or not, in the end, is the evidence of what they always were from the beginning.

"By their fruits ye shall know them". (Matthew 7.16)

 

[justbyfaith]

Absolutely.

Many, however, will choose NOT to remain with Him.
(Rom. 11:22, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet. 2:20-22,Matt. 5:13, 1 Cor. 9:27, 2 Peter 3:17, 1 John 2:24, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19)

Those who are designated good soil (cf. Luke 8:8 (kjv), Luke 8:15 (kjv)) (i.e. the elect) will endure to the end (Hebrews 3:6 (kjv), Hebrews 3:14 (kjv)) and will enter in as promised (John 5:24 (kjv), John 6:47 (kjv), John 10:27-30 (kjv), Hebrews 13:5 (kjv), Matthew 28:20 (kjv))

 

[CoreIssue]

This is the first time I spotted this thread. So there's no way I'm going to read every post.

But one comment I can make is that once again David L is once again espousing Calvinism. Limited atonement is one of the leafs of the Calvinism Tulip.

He says is not a Calvinist but his words say otherwise.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Those who are designated good soil (cf. Luke 8:8, Luke 8:15) (i.e. the elect) will endure to the end (Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 3:14) and will enter in as promised (John 5:24, John 6:47, John 10:27-30, Hebrews 13:5, Matthew 28:20)

BOTH of the Hebrews verses you presented have the stipulation "IF we hold fast".
It requires our COOPERATION.

 

[justbyfaith]

We are made partakers of Christ if we hold fast to the end...it is saying that if we hold fast to the end, we were partakers of Christ all along...

If we do not endure to the end, it is because we weren't truly partakers of Christ.

Therefore, being partakers of Christ means that we will endure to the end.

Did you look at and meditate on the other scriptures that were referenced?

 

[Taken]

By FAITH ALONE ~

By FAITH and WORKS ~

FAITH ALONE is "justification" for one to Receive Salvation;
BECAUSE of Gods Grace;
And
BECAUSE of mans BELIEF....
"IN God "AND" IN Jesus Christ".

Such a man IS "justified" to RECEIVE:
The Crown of Life.

In the Book of James...
James IS speaking TO....HIS BRETHREN.

WHO are JAMES "BRETHREN" ? JEWS

HOW did JEWS become "justified" to Receive Salvation "Under Jewish Law" ?

BY having BELIEF...
"IN God"
"And"
"DOING worKs"
"That glorified God".

AND? IF a JEW, under the law, BELIEVED
"IN" God"
"AND"
"DID works"
"That glorified God"

THEN WHAT? IT DEPENDS...
"DEPENDS ON WHAT" ?

It depends on "IF" the man:
Believing in God, TO the END of his natural Life, Continued Believing in God...

That man WOULD RECEIVE THEN, at the END of his Life....The Promised Salvation from God.

And EVERY WORK the man DID, (while believing in God), he WOULD BE "justified", for that man TO ALSO RECEIVE...
Gifts/Rewards/Crowns...FOR HIS WORKS of Glorifiying Gods Name.

Jesus, picked and chose men...MULTIPLE men, to Spread a NEW GOOD NEWS...TO?
JEWS.

WHAT Good News?
That by a man HAVING,
BELIEF "IN GOD" 'and' JESUS CHRIST...

They could Receive
(BECAUSE OF GODS GRACE)...
BY and through JESUS CHRIST...
(Because of His Offering, and His POWER to FILL a man WITH HIS Gift of FAITH)

THEY COULD RECEIVE
The GIFT of SALVATION ... (THEN/NOW).

God sent ONE primary man TO spread the "good news" to Gentiles (who had never been under Jewish Law).

SOME Jews "THEN", accepted "the good news" of "justification" for "Salvation" to be received unto THEM 'NOW/THEN'.

MANY Gentiles "THEN", accepted "the good news" of "justification" for "Savation" to be received unto THEM 'NOW/THEN'.

Jews WHO "remained / remain" TODAY, under the Law... "CONTINUE" under the Law.

THEY ARE 'justified' to RECEIVE Salvation...
At the END of their "natural lives"...
"IF"
1) they Have REMAINED faithful to God ONLY
2) they Have DONE works to glorify His Name

ANY MAN, Gentile or Jew...

ARE "justified" to RECEIVE Salvation "NOW"...
"IF"
1) they heartfully confess TO:
Believing "IN" God "and" Jesus Christ.
PERIOD.

^ THAT IS THEIR REASONABLE SERVICE.

"IF" such a man GOES BEYOND fulfilling his
"REASONABLE SERVICE"...

2) and DOES WORKS that Glorify "thee Lord Gods Name"...

3) THAT MAN "IS" "justified" TO RECEIVE...
(In addition to the CROWN OF LIFE)...

4) TO Also Receive...Gifts/Rewards/Crowns

5) "FOR" his Works "that DID Glorify thee Lord Gods Great Name.

Rom 12:1
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

IN Brief..
Jesus IMPRESSED...Belief IN GOD and HIM, is Gods Desire.

Jesus IMPRESSED...A man Accepting/Taking His Offering of Salvation, IS a Gift the man RECEIVES "now/then"...BEFORE the END of the mans Natural Life.

Scripture IMPRESSED..."IF" all "any" man DOES, IS agree to TAKE Jesus' OFFERING of Salvation...That such a man...IS SAVED, RIGHT THEN.

Scripture IMPRESSES..."IF" "any man having RECEIVED" Salvation".."DOES" works to Glorify Gods NAME...
1) Other men will "notice"
2) God SHALL Gift that man WITH;
Gifts/rewards/additional crowns.

James IMPRESSED...(and other scriptures)
1) TO HIS "Brethren Jews".
2) Faith is Justification TO RECEIVE Salvation.
3) Works ALONE, DO NOT "justify" Receiving SALVATION.
4) But YET...DO NOT SET ASIDE DOING WORKS...
5) BECAUSE; "WORKS" justify "a" JEW "IN" belief "IN" God ONLY, under the law.
6) BECAUSE; "WORKS" justify "any" man "IN"
Belief "IN" God "and" Jesus Christ TO:
7) Receive...Gods Additional Gifts OF:
Gifts, rewards, crowns.

When Considering Scripture...
"DIVIDE THE WORD OF TRUTH"...

If you are NOT a JEW, the Scripture is NOT talking TO YOU!

If you are NOT "any" man "UNDER The LAW", the Scripture is NOT talking TO YOU!

IF YOU ONLY believe IN God, and NOT Jesus Christ, the Scripture is NOT talking TO YOU!

IF YOU BELIEVE IN BOTH God and Jesus Christ, the Scripture IS talking TO YOU!

God GAVE MEN, by the Word OUT OF HIS MOUTH...

STATUTES; LAWS; PRECEPTS; COMMANDS...

It is the INDIVIDUAL MAN, over the course of his Natural Lifetime; who can Pick and choose to hear, learn, the KNOWLEDGE in Scripture, and BY what the Individual "DOES" or "DOES NOT" DO....Dictates WHICH SCRIPTURES APPLIES to such man.

And "bullies" are NOT in "short supply"...READY TO DICTATE to "other men";
"The bulley's WORD", "The bulley's UNDERSTANDING"...
Is "the basis" for what """really applies""",
To another man. Pfft!

"IF" a man has "elected" to Believe IN God and Christ Jesus, and "confess" his Belief...

That man Was Justified to BE SAVED and IS NOW Saved, Once and Forever.

There are plenty of OTHER THINGS, a man can BECOME "Justified" for....including but not Limited to "Works".

God Bless,
Merry Christmas
Taken

 

[BreadOfLife]

We are made partakers of Christ if we hold fast to the end...it is saying that if we hold fast to the end, we were partakers of Christ all along...

If we do not endure to the end, it is because we weren't truly partakers of Christ.

Therefore, being partakers of Christ means that we will endure to the end.

Did you look at and meditate on the other scriptures that were referenced?

WRONG – that’s not what it says on context.
That is what YOU have to believe it says to support our Calvinist perversions.

You need to read these verses in CONTEXT – which is Kryptonite to Calvinists.
Here is the context of Heb. 3:6 . . .

5 Moses was “faithful in all his house” as a “servant” to testify to what would be spoken,
6 but Christ was faithful as a son placed over his house. We ARE his house, if only we hold fast to our confidence and pride in our hope.

7 Therefore, as the holy Spirit says:
“Oh, that today you would hear his voice,
8 ‘Harden not your hearts as at the rebellion
in the day of testing in the desert,
9 where your ancestors tested and tried me
and saw my works
10 for forty years.

Here is the context of Heb 3:14 . . .

12 Take care, BROTHERS, that none of you may have an evil and unfaithful heart, so as to forsake the living God.
13 Encourage yourselves daily while it is still “today,” so that none of you may grow hardened by the deceit of sin.
14 We have become partners of Christ if only we hold the beginning of the reality firm until the end,
15 for it is said:
“Oh, that today you would hear his voice:
‘Harden not your hearts as at the rebellion.’”

Don’t just read verse 14 – read the verses that precede and follow it.
The entire chapter begins with the greeting: “Therefore, holy brothers, you who share in the heavenly calling,”

BOTH Heb. 3:6 and 3:14 are speaking to BROTHERS in the Lord.
ONLY a born again, converted man can a “holy brother” in the Lord. Case CLOSED.

 

[Taken]

~ justbyfaith~

If you do not mind answering...

Are you a Calvinist?

God Bless,
Merry Christmas,
Taken

 

[justbyfaith]

By FAITH ALONE ~

By FAITH and WORKS ~

FAITH ALONE is "justification" for one to Receive Salvation;
BECAUSE of Gods Grace;
And
BECAUSE of mans BELIEF....
"IN God "AND" IN Jesus Christ".

Such a man IS "justified" to RECEIVE:
The Crown of Life.

In the Book of James...
James IS speaking TO....HIS BRETHREN.

WHO are JAMES "BRETHREN" ? JEWS

HOW did JEWS become "justified" to Receive Salvation "Under Jewish Law" ?

BY having BELIEF...
"IN God"
"And"
"DOING worKs"
"That glorified God".

AND? IF a JEW, under the law, BELIEVED
"IN" God"
"AND"
"DID works"
"That glorified God"

THEN WHAT? IT DEPENDS...
"DEPENDS ON WHAT" ?

It depends on "IF" the man:
Believing in God, TO the END of his natural Life, Continued Believing in God...

That man WOULD RECEIVE THEN, at the END of his Life....The Promised Salvation from God.

And EVERY WORK the man DID, (while believing in God), he WOULD BE "justified", for that man TO ALSO RECEIVE...
Gifts/Rewards/Crowns...FOR HIS WORKS of Glorifiying Gods Name.

Jesus, picked and chose men...MULTIPLE men, to Spread a NEW GOOD NEWS...TO?
JEWS.

WHAT Good News?
That by a man HAVING,
BELIEF "IN GOD" 'and' JESUS CHRIST...

They could Receive
(BECAUSE OF GODS GRACE)...
BY and through JESUS CHRIST...
(Because of His Offering, and His POWER to FILL a man WITH HIS Gift of FAITH)

THEY COULD RECEIVE
The GIFT of SALVATION ... (THEN/NOW).

God sent ONE primary man TO spread the "good news" to Gentiles (who had never been under Jewish Law).

SOME Jews "THEN", accepted "the good news" of "justification" for "Salvation" to be received unto THEM 'NOW/THEN'.

MANY Gentiles "THEN", accepted "the good news" of "justification" for "Savation" to be received unto THEM 'NOW/THEN'.

Jews WHO "remained / remain" TODAY, under the Law... "CONTINUE" under the Law.

THEY ARE 'justified' to RECEIVE Salvation...
At the END of their "natural lives"...
"IF"
1) they Have REMAINED faithful to God ONLY
2) they Have DONE works to glorify His Name

ANY MAN, Gentile or Jew...

ARE "justified" to RECEIVE Salvation "NOW"...
"IF"
1) they heartfully confess TO:
Believing "IN" God "and" Jesus Christ.
PERIOD.

^ THAT IS THEIR REASONABLE SERVICE.

"IF" such a man GOES BEYOND fulfilling his
"REASONABLE SERVICE"...

2) and DOES WORKS that Glorify "thee Lord Gods Name"...

3) THAT MAN "IS" "justified" TO RECEIVE...
(In addition to the CROWN OF LIFE)...

4) TO Also Receive...Gifts/Rewards/Crowns

5) "FOR" his Works "that DID Glorify thee Lord Gods Great Name.

Rom 12:1
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

IN Brief..
Jesus IMPRESSED...Belief IN GOD and HIM, is Gods Desire.

Jesus IMPRESSED...A man Accepting/Taking His Offering of Salvation, IS a Gift the man RECEIVES "now/then"...BEFORE the END of the mans Natural Life.

Scripture IMPRESSED..."IF" all "any" man DOES, IS agree to TAKE Jesus' OFFERING of Salvation...That such a man...IS SAVED, RIGHT THEN.

Scripture IMPRESSES..."IF" "any man having RECEIVED" Salvation".."DOES" works to Glorify Gods NAME...
1) Other men will "notice"
2) God SHALL Gift that man WITH;
Gifts/rewards/additional crowns.

James IMPRESSED...(and other scriptures)
1) TO HIS "Brethren Jews".
2) Faith is Justification TO RECEIVE Salvation.
3) Works ALONE, DO NOT "justify" Receiving SALVATION.
4) But YET...DO NOT SET ASIDE DOING WORKS...
5) BECAUSE; "WORKS" justify "a" JEW "IN" belief "IN" God ONLY, under the law.
6) BECAUSE; "WORKS" justify "any" man "IN"
Belief "IN" God "and" Jesus Christ TO:
7) Receive...Gods Additional Gifts OF:
Gifts, rewards, crowns.

When Considering Scripture...
"DIVIDE THE WORD OF TRUTH"...

If you are NOT a JEW, the Scripture is NOT talking TO YOU!

If you are NOT "any" man "UNDER The LAW", the Scripture is NOT talking TO YOU!

IF YOU ONLY believe IN God, and NOT Jesus Christ, the Scripture is NOT talking TO YOU!

IF YOU BELIEVE IN BOTH God and Jesus Christ, the Scripture IS talking TO YOU!

God GAVE MEN, by the Word OUT OF HIS MOUTH...

STATUTES; LAWS; PRECEPTS; COMMANDS...

It is the INDIVIDUAL MAN, over the course of his Natural Lifetime; who can Pick and choose to hear, learn, the KNOWLEDGE in Scripture, and BY what the Individual "DOES" or "DOES NOT" DO....Dictates WHICH SCRIPTURES APPLIES to such man.

And "bullies" are NOT in "short supply"...READY TO DICTATE to "other men";
"The bulley's WORD", "The bulley's UNDERSTANDING"...
Is "the basis" for what """really applies""",
To another man. Pfft!

"IF" a man has "elected" to Believe IN God and Christ Jesus, and "confess" his Belief...

That man Was Justified to BE SAVED and IS NOW Saved, Once and Forever.

There are plenty of OTHER THINGS, a man can BECOME "Justified" for....including but not Limited to "Works".

God Bless,
Merry Christmas
Taken

A lot of words to give an explanation that is explained more aptly by Romans 4:2...

For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Abraham was justified by works in the sight of man (i.e. he offered up Isaac on the altar); but in the sight of God he was justified by his faith alone. Man looks on the outward appearance but God looks on the heart. Therefore God did not even have to look at Abraham's act of faith in order to see Abraham's faith; He simply saw invisibly Abraham's faith...many years before he ever demonstrated it by offering his son on the altar, in Genesis 15:6. "Abraham believed in the LORD; and it was counted to him for righteousness." That was the moment Abraham was justified. Before humanity, the evidence that he really believed was shown forth when he offered up Isaac. But Abraham was justified through a living faith alone...his living faith eventually demonstrated works in accordance with his faith...however his faith saved him for the twenty or so odd years that he simply had faith alone without any works to show for it. If he had gone on to be with the Lord before, and had never sacrificed Isaac on the altar, his faith alone would have saved him.

WRONG – that’s not what it says on context.
That is what YOU have to believe it says to support our Calvinist perversions.

You need to read these verses in CONTEXT – which is Kryptonite to Calvinists.
Here is the context of Heb. 3:6 . . .

5 Moses was “faithful in all his house” as a “servant” to testify to what would be spoken,
6 but Christ was faithful as a son placed over his house. We ARE his house, if only we hold fast to our confidence and pride in our hope.

7 Therefore, as the holy Spirit says:
“Oh, that today you would hear his voice,
8 ‘Harden not your hearts as at the rebellion
in the day of testing in the desert,
9 where your ancestors tested and tried me
and saw my works
10 for forty years.

Here is the context of Heb 3:14 . . .

12 Take care, BROTHERS, that none of you may have an evil and unfaithful heart, so as to forsake the living God.
13 Encourage yourselves daily while it is still “today,” so that none of you may grow hardened by the deceit of sin.
14 We have become partners of Christ if only we hold the beginning of the reality firm until the end,
15 for it is said:
“Oh, that today you would hear his voice:
‘Harden not your hearts as at the rebellion.’”

Don’t just read verse 14 – read the verses that precede and follow it.
The entire chapter begins with the greeting: “Therefore, holy brothers, you who share in the heavenly calling,”

BOTH Heb. 3:6 and 3:14 are speaking to BROTHERS in the Lord.
ONLY a born again, converted man can a “holy brother” in the Lord. Case CLOSED.

First of all, you are using a faulty translation. The Bible does not exalt pride; pride is what made the devil fall from heaven and is original sin.

Secondly, You're going to have to make your case clearer; because I honestly don't see how the context of these verses refutes my interpretation of them.

~ justbyfaith~

If you do not mind answering...

Are you a Calvinist?

God Bless,
Merry Christmas,
Taken

T + (Total Depravity--check)
U - (election is according to foreknowledge)
L - (Jesus died for all men, but only those who receive the gift of salvation enter into heaven)
I + (Irresistible Grace--check)
P + (Perseverance of the Saints--check...this does not translate into OSAS in my book, as most people perceive the doctrine)

 

[BreadOfLife]

First of all, you are using a faulty translation. The Bible does not exalt pride; pride is what made the devil fall from heaven and is original sin.

Secondly, You're going to have to make your case clearer; because I honestly don't see how the context of these verses refutes my interpretation of them.

Now, you’re nitpicking because your cherry-picking didn’t work.
Okay – here is your revered KJV which conveys the SAME message . . .

Heb. 3:5-10
5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;

6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house ARE WE, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

As I stated before - The entire chapter begins with the greeting: “Therefore, HOLY BROTHERS, you who share in the heavenly calling,”

BOTH Heb. 3:6 and 3:14 are speaking to HOLY BROTHERS in the Lord.
ONLY a born again, converted man can a “holy brother” in the Lord.

As I stated before – context is Kryptonite to Calvinists.

 

[justbyfaith]

Now, you’re nitpicking because your cherry-picking didn’t work.
Okay – here is your revered KJV which conveys the SAME message . . .

Heb. 3:5-10
5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;

6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house ARE WE, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

As I stated before - The entire chapter begins with the greeting: “Therefore, HOLY BROTHERS, you who share in the heavenly calling,”

BOTH Heb. 3:6 and 3:14 are speaking to HOLY BROTHERS in the Lord.
ONLY a born again, converted man can a “holy brother” in the Lord.

As I stated before – context is Kryptonite to Calvinists.

I'm not seeing it...

How does the fact that they are holy brothers mean that they will not endure to the end if they are partakers of Christ?

How does it show that my interpretation is faulty, (my interpretation that...) those who are truly partakers of Christ will endure to the end?

I mean, I don't think you are going to be able to convince me that my salvation isn't secure; because I know and have memorized by heart the verses that say that it is.

If you attempt to knock the helmet off of my head, I am very likely to put up the shield of faith in order to block your attack, and then strike the principality that is behind your action with the sword of the Spirit and/or the heavy artillery of prayer.

If I am offering to you a helmet to be used in battle in your own life, I believe that you would be a fool to reject the offer of the gift; because in doing so you would continue to leave your head wide open for attack by the enemy.

 

[farouk]

I'm not seeing it...

How does the fact that they are holy brothers mean that they will not endure to the end if they are not partakers of Christ?

How does it show that my interpretation is faulty, that those who are truly partakers of Christ will endure to the end?

I mean, I don't think you are going to be able to convince me that my salvation isn't secure; because I know and have memorized by heart the verses that say that it is.

If you attempt to knock the helmet off of my head, I am very likely to put up the shield of faith in order to block your attack, and then strike the principality that is behind your action with the sword of the Spirit.

If I am offering to you a helmet to be used in battle in your own life, I believe that you would be a fool to reject the offer of the gift; because in doing so you would continue to leave your head wide open for attack by the enemy.

Romans 8 is clear about the perseverance of the true believer in the Lord Jesus.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I'm not seeing it...

How does the fact that they are holy brothers mean that they will not endure to the end if they are partakers of Christ?

How does it show that my interpretation is faulty, (my interpretation that...) those who are truly partakers of Christ will endure to the end?

I mean, I don't think you are going to be able to convince me that my salvation isn't secure; because I know and have memorized by heart the verses that say that it is.

If you attempt to knock the helmet off of my head, I am very likely to put up the shield of faith in order to block your attack, and then strike the principality that is behind your action with the sword of the Spirit and/or the heavy artillery of prayer.

If I am offering to you a helmet to be used in battle in your own life, I believe that you would be a fool to reject the offer of the gift; because in doing so you would continue to leave your head wide open for attack by the enemy.

I’m NOT trying to “change” your mind.
YOU are the one who responded to ME regarding the complete absence of the idea of “Faith Alone” I Scripture.

YOU brought up OSAS – not me.
The fact remains that Sole Fide is a completely UN-Biblical doctrine – as is OSAS.

The following passages attest to this . . .

Sola Fide is LIE
James 2:24
You see that a man is justified by works and NOT BY FAITH ALONE.
The ONLY time in ALL of Scripture that the words “Faith Alone” appear together – and it is a refutation of Sola Fide.

Matt. 7:21
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who DOES the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
The OBEDIENT will be saved – NOT the ones who simply “believed” and called upon His name.


OSAS is a LIE
Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you REMAIN in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”
Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation. How can they lose what they never had?

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

Matt. 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
This one is self-explanatory - even to a blind, deaf and dumb person . . .

1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."
Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into sin.

2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.

1 John 2:24
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.
This is an admonition to try to remain faithful.

Rev. 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
God cannot blot out a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.

Rev. 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
How can God take away somebody’s share of heaven if they never had it to begin with? This is about CHRISTIANS who may or may NOT make it into Heaven.

 

[Nancy]

A lot of words to give an explanation that is explained more aptly by Romans 4:2...

For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Abraham was justified by works in the sight of man (i.e. he offered up Isaac on the altar); but in the sight of God he was justified by his faith alone. Man looks on the outward appearance but God looks on the heart. Therefore God did not even have to look at Abraham's act of faith in order to see Abraham's faith; He simply saw invisibly Abraham's faith...many years before he ever demonstrated it by offering his son on the altar, in Genesis 15:6. "Abraham believed in the LORD; and it was counted to him for righteousness." That was the moment Abraham was justified. Before humanity, the evidence that he really believed was shown forth when he offered up Isaac. But Abraham was justified through a living faith alone...his living faith eventually demonstrated works in accordance with his faith...however his faith saved him for the twenty or so odd years that he simply had faith alone without any works to show for it.



First of all, you are using a faulty translation. The Bible does not exalt pride; pride is what made the devil fall from heaven and is original sin.

Secondly, You're going to have to make your case clearer; because I honestly don't see how the context of these verses refutes my interpretation of them.



T + (Total Depravity--check)
U - (election is according to foreknowledge)
L - (Jesus died for all men, but only those who receive the gift of salvation enter into heaven)
I + (Irresistible Grace--check)
P + (Perseverance of the Saints--check...this does not translate into OSAS in my book, as most people perceive the doctrine)

So, you would be a 2.5 point Calvinist. Irresistible Grace used here is nothing more than being forced. I don't think our God is like that at all. Limited atonement (L) say's that Jesus died only for a elect few. What about all of those "whomsoever wills" ALL who call on the name of Christ will be saved" "...died for the sins of the WORLD." And a slew of others one has to bend backwards to make the meanings of these scriptures skewed. God does not need to MAKE us do anything, He wants us to Love Him WILLINGLY. Of course God sees the beginning from the end and knows who will do what...He USES THESE CIRCUMSTANCES to His and our (Christains) ultimate good. He does NOT NEED to use us as chess pieces to do His own will, NOTHING is impossible for Him. And, I could never be a Calvinist because I could not, in good conscience tell an unbeliever (friend, family...) that God died for their sins too! I suppose I am a one pointer-we are ALL born under Adam's original sin.

1. 1 John 2:1 "My little children, I am writing these things to you that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world Luke 19:2
2. 2 Corinthians 5:14-15
   14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; 15 and He died for all,that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.
3. Hebrews 2:9 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes,for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

There are so many more but, I'm sure you all have heard them...maybe.

 

[justbyfaith]

The ONLY time in ALL of Scripture that the words “Faith Alone” appear together – and it is a refutation of Sola Fide.

See Romans 4:6, which declares that the righteousness of the Lord is imputed to the believer apart from works. Perhaps that does not translate into Sola Fide in your mind.

The OBEDIENT will be saved – NOT the ones who simply “believed” and called upon His name.

Indeed, the obedient will be saved...but whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved...Romans 10:13...which indicates to me that those who truly call on His name will be made into new, obedient, creatures in Him...2 Corinthians 5:17.

OSAS is a LIE
Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you REMAIN in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”
Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation. How can they lose what they never had?

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

Matt. 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
This one is self-explanatory - even to a blind, deaf and dumb person . . .

1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."
Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into sin.

2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.

1 John 2:24
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.
This is an admonition to try to remain faithful.

Rev. 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
God cannot blot out a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.

Rev. 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
How can God take away somebody’s share of heaven if they never had it to begin with? This is about CHRISTIANS who may or may NOT make it into Heaven.

All of these quotes do not negate the scriptural promises that speak to us of eternal security in Christ..what they indicate is that the promises on eternal security only apply to those who heed the warnings that are given above.

As I have said, the fear of the Lord is a safeguard against falling away and is the real reason why anyone might be eternally secure in Him...in the eternally secure believer there is a tension between his security and his fear of falling away.

It is this very fear that keeps him from falling away...he shall not depart from the Lord because of a for ever fear that the Lord places inside of him...Jeremiah 32:38-40.

And no one can snatch him out of the Lord's hand, or the Father's hand (John 10:27-30). And he shall never perish...he shall not come into condemnation...John 5:24 (kjv). The Lord will never leave him not forsake him...Hebrews 13:5...He is with him alway, even unto the end of the world...Matthew 28:20. His life is everlasting and eternal, having begun at the moment of faith...John 5:24, John 6:47, John 10:27-30. Life that is everlasting, when will it end? It never will, is the answer! It is a life that is for ever.

The recipients of these promises are none other than the heeders of the warnings...the warnings serve to keep the believer in the safe zone so that he cannot fall away!

If someone is presumptuous to believe that the warnings do not need to be heeded, then he cannot rightly lay hold of the promises on eternal security...but if he stays within the boundaries through a healthy fear of the Lord, he never need fear falling away.

If someone is living on a plateau who is blind, and at the center of the plateau is a pole emitting sound that will cease to be heard in places where there is danger of falling off the cliff...the only time when the person living there need fear is in those times when he cannot hear the sound. As long as he stays near the center, there is no possibility of falling off the edge of the cliff...because he is heeding the warnings about going too far away from the center where the sound is emanating from. As soon as he does not hear the sound, he may even begin to rightly experience terror (2 Corinthians 5:11 (kjv)) because he could walk off the edge at any moment...but as long as he is in earshot of the sound, there is absolutely no need to fear...and the closer he is to the sound, the safer he can presume to be.

Thus, eternal security is a doctrine that applies to those who desire to be close to the Lord and who make it their endeavor to be in close communion with Him.

 

[justbyfaith]

So, you would be a 2.5 point Calvinist. Irresistible Grace used here is nothing more than being forced. I don't think our God is like that at all. Limited atonement (L) say's that Jesus died only for a elect few. What about all of those "whomsoever wills" ALL who call on the name of Christ will be saved" "...died for the sins of the WORLD." And a slew of others one has to bend backwards to make the meanings of these scriptures skewed. God does not need to MAKE us do anything, He wants us to Love Him WILLINGLY. Of course God sees the beginning from the end and knows who will do what...He USES THESE CIRCUMSTANCES to His and our (Christains) ultimate good. He does NOT NEED to use us as chess pieces to do His own will, NOTHING is impossible for Him. And, I could never be a Calvinist because I could not, in good conscience tell an unbeliever (friend, family...) that God died for their sins too! I suppose I am a one pointer-we are ALL born under Adam's original sin.

1. 
   
   
   • 1 John 2:1 "My little children, I am writing these things to you that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world Luke 19:2
   • 2 Corinthians 5:14-15
     14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; 15 and He died for all,that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.
   • Hebrews 2:9 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes,for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

There are so many more but, I'm sure you all have heard them...maybe.

Hi @Nancy,

I put a minus (-) next to the tenets of Calvinism that I don't believe in. In post #412 (Limited Atonement VS Universal Atonement)

My understanding of Irresistible Grace is not that it is forced, although our God is Omnipotent and could do it that way, I believe that He gives us a choice as to whether we will love Him or reject Him...but my understanding of Irresistible Grace rests in the fact that love never fails...1 Corinthians 13:8a. And love does not work that way....it does not force people to respond in kind...however I do find that the love that offers a choice is somewhat irresistible, if you understand what I am saying to you.

 

[justbyfaith]

And, I could never be a Calvinist because I could not, in good conscience tell an unbeliever (friend, family...) that God died for their sins too!

Did you mean:

And, I could never be a Calvinist because I could not, in good conscience tell an unbeliever (friend, family...) that God didn't die for their sins too!