Wet Paint Principle (Freedom)

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justbyfaith

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Hi @amadeus,

Yes, I definitely don't neglect the scriptures of the Bible or put this document in place of them. I actually don't read the document as much as I used to (because the message of the document finally got through to me as the Holy Spirit wanted me to understand it). I wrote it so that I would be able to reinforce in my mind certain biblical truths that I believe are keys to victory over sin. I found that in church there were certain things being spoken that robbed me of these truths, so I wrote them down so that I would not keep losing hold of them as seemed to keep happening from time to time.

And yes, I finally explained what the Wet Paint Principle is, at the end, rather than at the beginning, because the document is intended to be read more than once; and I did that so that understanding might be gained by those who take the time to read it more than once.

No; I don't think you are condemning what I wrote any more, and I am happy that you merely read it. I believe that I made it clear that the Wet Paint Principle is the main theme of the document in the very title of the document.

And by all means, I am interested in what your understanding might be, if you should have the time and inclination to add it. I personally don't believe that any discussion of biblical principles is a waste of time.

It is primarily written as a response to Galatians 5:4, which was a stumbling block to me for many years. Part of what the document is about has to do with me finally discovering the definition of what sin is and how the Cross applies to my sin as pertains to my own obedience before the Lord. I believe that the Lord does not want us to sin; but certain things in the Bible and certain things in what I was being taught in church seemed to be telling me that sin didn't matter because Jesus died for it. The document as a whole, I believe, is a discussion on why we as Christians are not to sin in light of the fact that all of our sins are forgiven, i.e. shall I continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid!

Understanding the wet paint principle as being what is written by Paul in Romans 7:7-13 (if you would meditate on that scripture in light of the document) will help in understanding the document immensely. The document is intended to be read in light of understanding this principle and it is intended to shed light on this principle of scripture. Freedom 1:8, 1:11, 1:12, 1:16, 1:18, 1:25-26, I believe are key verses in chapter 1. Chapter 1 is primarily about how the law competes with the Cross as the means of salvation; but that the law is not to be completely ignored because it defines sin for us and therefore when Christ tells us not to sin in certain passages of scripture He is telling us to obey His word as it is given to us in His law. In chapter 3 I expound on this more by showing how in the New Testament we are merely to walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh, but that this doesn't nullify the law as a definition for sin. Chapter 3 has as its basis a desire to be great in the kingdom as Jesus spoke of it in Matthew 5:17-20; in setting forth the law as a schoolmaster to lead people to Christ and as something that is now written in our hearts and minds as redeemed saints.

Chapter 2 is a reminder that holiness is something that the Lord desires in each and every one of us and is also something that He is able to produce in us through His abundant grace.

Chapter 4 is something of a conclusion that I made from all of the writing before. At some point in writing this thing, I was advised to try to summarize what I was trying to say by all of what I wrote; and so somewhere along the line that is what I do. I try to reiterate the principles in different words so that people can understand what I am saying. But I know also that if what I have written is in any way like scripture, that it is spiritually discerned and therefore people may not be able to understand it apart from comparing spiritual things with spiritual (1 Corinthians 2:13-14). They may even reject it as foolishness for all I know (I am glad that you did not).

Part of the entirety of the document is also a response to a false teacher that I encountered once on a different message board, who taught that we are under the "law of Christ" and that therefore we are bound to obey the righteousness of the law (and are not forgiven, is my estimation of his teaching, unless we are perfectly obedient to this "law of Christ") as it is set forth in the New Testament. I try to point out in chapter 3 (and a little also in previous chapters) that both the Old Testament and the New Testament laws apply as a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ and that the fact that we are not under the law as believers does not only apply to the Old Testament but also applies to New Testament principles that might be defined as moral tenets or law--do's and don'ts of scripture that tell us how to behave and live...so that as redeemed and forgiven sinners, the law no longer condemns us whether it is the law of the Old Testament or "the law of Christ".

But again, the whole of the document is my response to what I felt Galatians 5:4 was saying to me---that if I ever were to succeed at becoming a sanctified Christian (see such verses as 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, Hebrews 10:14, 1 John 3:9, and Romans 6:6 w/ Colossians 2:11) in ceasing to sin against the Lord, that I would no longer be saved. Surely that is not what Paul meant by that scripture; but that is what I felt that it was saying to me time and time again. I believe I resolved the issue in my mind by writing the document primarily as a response to that verse and the spiritual problems that it was causing me.
 
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amadeus

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Hi @amadeus,

Yes, I definitely don't neglect the scriptures of the Bible or put this document in place of them. I actually don't read the document as much as I used to (because the message of the document finally got through to me as the Holy Spirit wanted me to understand it). I wrote it so that I would be able to reinforce in my mind certain biblical truths that I believe are keys to victory over sin. I found that in church there were certain things being spoken that robbed me of these truths, so I wrote them down so that I would not keep losing hold of them as seemed to keep happening from time to time.

This thing of churches or those in churches saying the wrong things to us is a real problem. It is a problem of course both on the part of the ministers who should know better and the audience who too often could really care less. When someone new does come in if they stay they will in most places be taught to abide by the rules in place for that place. This means no following of the Spirit if it should happen to lead outside of those established boundaries. This sounds a lot like the scribes and Pharisees as described in the gospel accounts, doesn't it? This is what I mean when I speak in places of teaching people to quench the Holy Spirit. The opposite is what should be taught, is it not?
 

justbyfaith

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This thing of churches or those in churches saying the wrong things to us is a real problem. It is a problem of course both on the part of the ministers who should know better and the audience who too often could really care less. When someone new does come in if they stay they will in most places be taught to abide by the rules in place for that place. This means no following of the Spirit if it should happen to lead outside of those established boundaries. This sounds a lot like the scribes and Pharisees as described in the gospel accounts, doesn't it? This is what I mean when I speak in places of teaching people to quench the Holy Spirit. The opposite is what should be taught, is it not?
Yes; and this is one of the reasons I enjoy the format and venue of christian forums such as these.

There is freedom to go beyond established boundaries and express where you are coming from; and while there may be judgment, it is still true that forums like these are a sounding board for people of all opinions. I believe that this is good for fostering spiritual growth. If a person is not allowed to express their opinion, how can they be corrected if their opinion is off-base? And if the corrector is off-base in their opinion, that can also become evident over time (see 1 Corinthians 11:19).

The whole concept of freedom of speech and religion has been lost in some places in our nation (I am not saying the churches: in fact, I find that it is even squelched at some christian forums such as these).

People ought to be able to speak their minds about any dissent that they may have from Christian doctrine, if they have the courage to do so. And if what they believe is not in line with sound doctrine, that will become evident. And also, if their dissent from Christian doctrine is based in a lack of basic faith in Jesus Christ, that also will become evident. Should their voices therefore be put completely down by the establishment? I don't believe that the Lord is afraid of dissenting opinions; and He is certainly able to help His people give an answer for objections that people may have to the faith. And if they are not allowed to voice their opinion, how will it be known that they are unbelievers? Personally, I want to know who the unbelievers are so that I can pray for them and minister to them in the gentleness of the Holy Spirit. If they are told not to raise their objections, how will their objections be answered by us? They will simply come for donuts and sit unredeemed in church.
 

amadeus

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Hi @amadeus,
Part of the entirety of the document is also a response to a false teacher that I encountered once on a different message board, who taught that we are under the "law of Christ" and that therefore we are bound to obey the righteousness of the law (and are not forgiven, is my estimation of his teaching, unless we are perfectly obedient to this "law of Christ") as it is set forth in the New Testament. I try to point out in chapter 3 (and a little also in previous chapters) that both the Old Testament and the New Testament laws apply as a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ and that the fact that we are not under the law as believers does not only apply to the Old Testament but also applies to New Testament principles that might be defined as moral tenets or law--do's and don'ts of scripture that tell us how to behave and live...so that as redeemed and forgiven sinners, the law no longer condemns us whether it is the law of the Old Testament or "the law of Christ".
Of the several teachers I have had over the years, there was one who certainly taught some falsehoods, but much of his false teaching was indirect. By indirect I mean that his example was teaching the wrong things even to my very inexperienced mind.

It was under him that I received the baptism of the Holy Ghost and it was under him that I began at age 32 for the first time in my life to read the Bible. When I believed he was wrong, at the time I could not pinpoint the error because I had no knowledge of the scriptures nor other religious teaching history except Catholic which was quite different. It after the fact when I no longer was sitting under him that the truth of some of the error was made clear to me. This experience for me was also a schoolmaster even as you have designated things of the OT and the NT as schoolmasters.

Yes, they are schoolmasters, but even we have read or heard from them, how much do we understand at all, and of that how much would God say is correct?

Your response in part to the falsehoods you perceived was in your putting it down on paper. I have done the same at times especially years ago. Before I had computers I filled notebooks with my Bible notes and studies. A time came when I back away and tore it all up and threw it out. That was as I see it a mistake. Then with computers I began to write it all again and now have hundreds of writings on perhaps thousands of pages somewhat organized and used primarily for my own reference... as your OP writing has been used.
 
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amadeus

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Yes; and this is one of the reasons I enjoy the format and venue of christian forums such as these.
This is good and yet it is a shame for there is some advantage to being able to interact with a person on a face to face basis offline. Unfortunately, there are few church settings where anything like that would be allowed. I only have one offline friend who interacts with me that way. He was a native of Mexico but became a naturalized US citizen many years ago... even before I met him in 1985. He's been gone to Mexico for several months now to visit family. I hope all is well with him and we have good discussions together even though my wife has little tolerance for him... but that is another story.

There is freedom to go beyond established boundaries and express where you are coming from; and while there may be judgment, it is still true that forums like these are a sounding board for people of all opinions. I believe that this is good for fostering spiritual growth. If a person is not allowed to express their opinion, how can they be corrected if their opinion is off-base? And if the corrector is off-base in their opinion, that can also become evident over time (see 1 Corinthians 11:19).
This is one of the best ones I still frequent regularly. I like to discuss without the occurrence of name calling and mud slinging which reminds me of national politics. Some forums are too quiet. Some are supposedly Christian but are really too immersed in the world to allow much growth. Some are too much like most churches of my experience being too quick to suspend of ban people who stray from the forum's own essential doctrines.
The whole concept of freedom of speech and religion has been lost in some places in our nation (I am not saying the churches: in fact, I find that it is even squelched at some christian forums such as these).
Absolutely.
People ought to be able to speak their minds about any dissent that they may have from Christian doctrine, if they have the courage to do so. And if what they believe is not in line with sound doctrine, that will become evident. And also, if their dissent from Christian doctrine is based in a lack of basic faith in Jesus Christ, that also will become evident. Should their voices therefore be put completely down by the establishment? I don't believe that the Lord is afraid of dissenting opinions; and He is certainly able to help His people give an answer for objections that people may have to the faith. And if they are not allowed to voice their opinion, how will it be known that they are unbelievers? Personally, I want to know who the unbelievers are so that I can pray for them and minister to them in the gentleness of the Holy Spirit. If they are told not to raise their objections, how will their objections be answered by us? They will simply come for donuts and sit unredeemed in church.
Before I really got involved deeply in this one [I was already a member here] the forum I most frequently visited did not allow Catholics at all and was extremely rude and prejudiced against JWs, Mormons and other non-mainstream Protestants. I guess I would fit into some unidentified splinter of the 3rd category. I see a measure of truth in each one of them without having personal experience [as a member] with most of them. Still this is how we can grow, is it not?

Jesus knew all that men needed to know and lived accordingly as a man. All of that knowledge is available today, but no church group or individual in my experience has all of it. Our willingness to discuss honestly our differences is one way, I believe, that God through the Holy Ghost helps us move upward instead of stagnating or sliding downward.
 

justbyfaith

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Of the several teachers I have had over the years, there was one who certainly taught some falsehoods, but much of his false teaching was indirect. By indirect I mean that his example was teaching the wrong things even to my very inexperienced mind.

It was under him that I received the baptism of the Holy Ghost and it was under him that I began at age 32 for the first time in my life to read the Bible. When I believed he was wrong, at the time I could not pinpoint the error because I had no knowledge of the scriptures nor other religious teaching history except Catholic which was quite different. It after the fact when I no longer was sitting under him that the truth of some of the error was made clear to me. This experience for me was also a schoolmaster even as you have designated things of the OT and the NT as schoolmasters.

Yes, they are schoolmasters, but even we have read or heard from them, how much do we understand at all, and of that how much would God say is correct?

Your response in part to the falsehoods you perceived was in your putting it down on paper. I have done the same at times especially years ago. Before I had computers I filled notebooks with my Bible notes and studies. A time came when I back away and tore it all up and threw it out. That was as I see it a mistake. Then with computers I began to write it all again and now have hundreds of writings on perhaps thousands of pages somewhat organized and used primarily for my own reference... as your OP writing has been used.

This is good and yet it is a shame for there is some advantage to being able to interact with a person on a face to face basis offline. Unfortunately, there are few church settings where anything like that would be allowed. I only have one offline friend who interacts with me that way. He was a native of Mexico but became a naturalized US citizen many years ago... even before I met him in 1985. He's been gone to Mexico for several months now to visit family. I hope all is well with him and we have good discussions together even though my wife has little tolerance for him... but that is another story.


This is one of the best ones I still frequent regularly. I like to discuss without the occurrence of name calling and mud slinging which reminds me of national politics. Some forums are too quiet. Some are supposedly Christian but are really too immersed in the world to allow much growth. Some are too much like most churches of my experience being too quick to suspend of ban people who stray from the forum's own essential doctrines.

Absolutely.

Before I really got involved deeply in this one [I was already a member here] the forum I most frequently visited did not allow Catholics at all and was extremely rude and prejudiced against JWs, Mormons and other non-mainstream Protestants. I guess I would fit into some unidentified splinter of the 3rd category. I see a measure of truth in each one of them without having personal experience [as a member] with most of them. Still this is how we can grow, is it not?

Jesus knew all that men needed to know and lived accordingly as a man. All of that knowledge is available today, but no church group or individual in my experience has all of it. Our willingness to discuss honestly our differences is one way, I believe, that God through the Holy Ghost helps us move upward instead of stagnating or sliding downward.

Amen.
 

Jay Ross

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****bump****

Is that not a slow song, "it goes bumpety, bumpety, bump, bump, bump.

Oh well just like watching paint dry, it is as boring as, as watching grass grow or of someone growing a little older each day.
 

justbyfaith

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um wadr you are obligated to a higher standard, not a lower one

you are obligated to obey the law for your salvation ok,
Scripture makes this very plain, in many places
No; because Jesus will not impute sin to the true believer (Romans 4:8), the true believer in Christ is not obligated to obey the law. He has a different motivation for obedience: it is not an obligation to him but a privilege. We obey Jesus because we love Him; and we love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19, Luke 7:36-50, Romans 5:5) and forgave us of all of our sin.

Salvation for the true believer is not based on his obedience, whether to the law or any other standard; but is based on forgiveness through the shed blood of our Lord Jesus Christ on the Cross of Calvary. Obedience is rendered to the Lord not out of obligation but out of sheer gratitude for what He has done for us in suffering and dying in our place, in order to bring about the forgiveness of our sins.
 
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bbyrd009

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No; because Jesus will not impute sin to the true believer (Romans 4:8), the true believer in Christ is not obligated to obey the law. He has a different motivation for obedience: it is not an obligation to him but a privilege. We obey Jesus because we love Him; and we love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19, Luke 7:36-50, Romans 5:5) and forgave us of all of our sin.

Salvation for the true believer is not based on his obedience, whether to the law or any other standard; but is based on forgiveness through the shed blood of our Lord Jesus Christ on the Cross of Calvary. Obedience is rendered to the Lord not out of obligation but out of sheer gratitude for what He has done for us in suffering and dying in our place, in order to bring about the forgiveness of our sins.
interesting opinion, but it won't pass muster imo, Christ Himself says different even?
 

bbyrd009

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Chapter and verse? I'm sure that however it is that you think that Christ contradicts Himself, there is an answer.
oh, there's plenty of them, suffice it to say that it's kind of obvious which half of the Bible you are reading there, so rather than do that i would suggest maybe examining how we interpret "one in Christ cannot sin," which can be interpreted two ways, either
"it is not possible," or
"it is a really bad idea, 'cannot' as in 'don't' or 'shouldn't'"
 

justbyfaith

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but
not one jot or tittle,
do what they say to do, even though they do not,
will be considered least in the kingdom,

etc
the first scripture (Matthew 5:18), declares that the law will always be the standard by which the sinner is judged. And it will always be there as a schoolmaster to lead men to Christ (Galatians 3:24-25). And also, for the one who is born again, it governs us from the inside (Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:4, Romans 8:7).

But this is not to say that it has any power any more to condemn us from the outside (see Romans 6:14, Romans 7:4, Romans 7:6, Galatians 2:19, Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14, Hebrews 7:18-19, etc.). We are forgiven of our sins and Christ will not impute our sins unto us (Romans 4:6-8). Therefore the law cannot apply to us unto condemnation any more. Our sins are under the blood.

The second scripture (Matthew 23:3-4) is Jesus truly speaking of the hypocrisy of the scribes and Pharisees and declaring that because they sit in Moses' seat, they do not fail to have the authority to define what is the requirement of the law to the common, everyday people.

The third scripture (Matthew 5:19) does not say that if we break the law of God we will not enter into the kingdom of heaven; it allows for the person who has broken the law but is forgiven through the blood of Jesus Christ. Of course it does say that if we teach that a man is to obey the law for any reason, we will be called great in the kingdom. I believe that I fall into this category because even though I teach that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ, I also teach that if we are in Christ we are new creatures and are inclined towards obedience within our hearts (see Ezekiel 36:25-27, for example).
 
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bbyrd009

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the first scripture (Matthew 5:18), declares that the law will always be the standard by which the sinner is judged. And it will always be there as a schoolmaster to lead men to Christ (Galatians 3:24-25). And also, for the one who is born again, it governs us from the inside (Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:4, Romans 8:7).

But this is not to say that it has any power any more to condemn us from the outside (see Romans 6:14, Romans 7:4, Romans 7:6, Galatians 2:19, Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14, Hebrews 7:18-19, etc.). We are forgiven of our sins and Christ will not impute our sins unto us (Romans 4:6-8). Therefore the law cannot apply to us unto condemnation any more. Our sins are under the blood.

The second scripture (Matthew 23:3-4) is Jesus truly speaking of the hypocrisy of the scribes and Pharisees and declaring that because they sit in Moses' seat, they do not fail to have the authority to define what is the requirement of the law to the common, everyday people.

The third scripture (Matthew 5:19) does not say that if we break the law of God we will not enter into the kingdom of heaven; it allows for the person who has broken the law but is forgiven through the blood of Jesus Christ. Of course it does say that if we teach that a man is to obey the law for any reason, we will be called great in the kingdom. I believe that I fall into this category because even though I teach that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ, I also teach that if we are in Christ we are new creatures and are inclined towards obedience within our hearts (see Ezekiel 36:25-27, for example).
ya, the other post is more likely the one that needs a reply, i'm not biting on your justifications here ok, no offense
Mark 7:13 Lexicon: thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that."
 

justbyfaith

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oh, there's plenty of them, suffice it to say that it's kind of obvious which half of the Bible you are reading there, so rather than do that i would suggest maybe examining how we interpret "one in Christ cannot sin," which can be interpreted two ways, either
"it is not possible," or
"it is a really bad idea, 'cannot' as in 'don't' or 'shouldn't'"
Or, it can be interpreted as, in Christ we are not under the law, are dead to the law, and are delivered from the law...sin is the transgression of the law...and where the law does not apply there is no transgression...and therefore we cannot sin because the law doesn't apply to us.

But this is only from the perspective of God the Father looking at us through rose-colored glasses as He looks at us and sees the perfect blood and righteousness of His Son. God the Holy Spirit is the Person in the Trinity who convicts us of sin; and therefore He is fully aware of everything that is sinful within us. However from the Father's perspective, He does not see us as sinning even when we do sin (if we are in Christ and therefore have the inclination not to sin). The Holy Spirit's job is to sanctify us by revealing to us our sins so that we can confess them before the Lord.

I want to say also that this exemption from the condemnation of the law is only given to those who as a general rule desire to obey the law because they have been redeemed by Christ. Those who are righteous in their hearts are already forgiven when they "mess up" or "blow it" because they have been redeemed through the blood of Christ; and also, since they have been redeemed, they are new creatures in Him and therefore as a general rule are not going to be in violation of God's holy standard. The Cross and the blood are provision for the person who, because the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak, do not measure up to the Lord's standard but who believes in Jesus and is therefore forgiven of past, present, and future sin(s).
 
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justbyfaith

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