Angels

[Rollo Tamasi]

Judges 13:22;
"We are doomed to die!" he said to his wife. "We have seen God!"

 

[101G]

did Jacob wrestled with God? listen,
Gen 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
Gen 32:25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
Gen 32:26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
Gen 32:27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
Gen 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
Gen 32:29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
Gen 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

so did Jacob wrestled with God? or an angel, lets see.
Hos 12:3 He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God:
Hos 12:4 Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto him: he found him in Bethel, and there he spake with us;
Hos 12:5 Even the LORD God of hosts; the LORD is his memorial.

so it was the Angel of God.

please understand, angels stand in the PRESENT of God.

 

[CoreIssue]

Do you mean how many we have seen?

Not really a realistic question since an angel can be standing right next to you and you can't see it.

Plus proving what you think you seen and what you seen is sometimes difficult

After all, demons can deceive people into thinking they are angels.

So I'm not sure there's any value in this poll.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

the poll is the first sentence in the OP
I assumed everyone would understand that
I think it's safe to say that the Bible mentions 3 angels by name and all other names of angels are extra-biblical
that was my point

I don't claim to know it all
there may be more angels listed by name in the Bible
How about the apochropha?

 

[CoreIssue]

did Jacob wrestled with God? listen,
Gen 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
Gen 32:25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
Gen 32:26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
Gen 32:27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
Gen 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
Gen 32:29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
Gen 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

so did Jacob wrestled with God? or an angel, lets see.
Hos 12:3 He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God:
Hos 12:4 Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto him: he found him in Bethel, and there he spake with us;
Hos 12:5 Even the LORD God of hosts; the LORD is his memorial.

so it was the Angel of God.

please understand, angels stand in the PRESENT of God.

In the Bible the second person of the Trinity appeared as the angel of the Lord.

So yes, God did wrestle with Jacob.

Remember, Angel means what we traditionally think of as angels. But it also means messenger and can apply to humans as well.

 

[CoreIssue]

Off-the-cuff I remember Gabriel, Michael and the fallen angel Lucifer. Of course I am limiting it to angelic beings here.

 

[101G]

In the Bible the second person of the Trinity appeared as the angel of the Lord.

So yes, God did wrestle with Jacob.

Remember, Angel means what we traditionally think of as angels. But it also means messenger and can apply to humans as well.

are you saying that 1. Jacob has more power than God?.

2. and God, who is a Spirit, wrestle?.

nope.
Hos 12:3 He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God:
Hos 12:4 Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto him: he found him in Bethel, and there he spake with us;
Hos 12:5 Even the LORD God of hosts; the LORD is his memorial.

it was an angel.

 

[CoreIssue]

are you saying that 1. Jacob has more power than God?.

2. and God, who is a Spirit, wrestle?.

nope.
Hos 12:3 He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God:
Hos 12:4 Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto him: he found him in Bethel, and there he spake with us;
Hos 12:5 Even the LORD God of hosts; the LORD is his memorial.

it was an angel.

I am saying God did not appear as God and if he wanted to throw a wrestling match, who are we to criticize?

Nor did he speak to Jacob as an angel. He did not say the Lord says, he spoke for himself with authority.

Angels do not bless.

Jacob recognized it was God and was not corrected.

Jacob bopped to him and he was not stopped as elsewhere in the Bible when someone bowed to an angel.

The Angel of God is only a title given to God.

It was not an angel of God, he was the A.ngel of God

 

[101G]

I am saying God did not appear as God and if he wanted to throw a wrestling match, who are we to criticize?

well the scripture is true, there is nothing new under sun, the WWF has come to the church of God.....

ok, ...ok, all fun aside, the wrestling match has Spiritual implications, and not physical implications. listen,
Eph 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

I suggest you re-read those verses of Jacob wrestling match and get the Spiritual meat ok.

 

[GodsGrace]

Actually both Jesus and Paul tells us to shun idle words.

THE WORDS OF CHRIST
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. (Mt 12:36,37)

THE WORDS OF PAUL
King James Bible (1 Tim 1:6)
From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling
New International Version
Some have departed from these and have turned to meaningless talk.

King James Bible (2 Tim 2:16)
But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
International Standard Version
However, avoid pointless discussions. For people will become more and more ungodly...

As to the book of Enoch, this fits:

1. written in the name of another person by an anonymous author

Then these forums could just close down.
MOST of our talk is meaningless.
Kids like to hear about angels...the seraphim and the cherabim, the warriors and the messengers.

I don't think any talk about God is meaningless, unless we agree to say that ALL of it is...only GOD and His Word and His Spirit are important.

Everything else is just talk.

Meaning of babble:

Let’s think about what Jesus meant. I can see two problems with babbling:

1. Human focus. The context seems to be public prayers. Who are the prayers for? The babblers appear to be trying to impress other people (Matt 6:5). Our goal in prayer is to connect with God.
2. Manipulation of God. The babblers think they can impress God, presumably with the expectation of getting what they want. God cannot be manipulated. We cannot bully God into giving us what we want. Our prayers should be, like Jesus in Gethsemane, according to his will (Matt 6.10; 26.42).
3. Mistaking quantity for quality. God does not give us instructions about length of prayers, or quantity of words. He is interested in having a relationship with us, and the quality of that relationship.

Summary: Which of the above is your greatest temptation? None of us are immune to these challenges. Stop yourself now and again and check whether you really mean what you are saying in prayer.

source: https://www.quora.com/What-does-it-...-the-Bible-say-about-Gods-hearing-our-prayers

 

[CoreIssue]

well the scripture is true, there is nothing new under sun, the WWF has come to the church of God.....

ok, ...ok, all fun aside, the wrestling match has Spiritual implications, and not physical implications. listen,
Eph 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

I suggest you re-read those verses of Jacob wrestling match and get the Spiritual meat ok.

Of course it has spiritual implication. I thought that was so obvious it didn't need mentioned.

And why do you think what you said changes the reality of what I said?

 

[101G]

Of course it has spiritual implication. I thought that was so obvious it didn't need mentioned.

And why do you think what you said changes the reality of what I said?

Glad you came to that realization, now question, do God have to come to you personally FACE to face to bless you?

 

[GodsGrace]

ty, imo Thomas should not be interpreting anything for anyone :)

Your Italian lesson for today:
Chi e' Thomas??

 

[GodsGrace]

What on earth are angels?

"Our noun αγγελος (aggelos) initially meant something quite sound but was in later traditions interpreted as the semi-divine or spiritual beings we know today as "angels." ...

I believe it meant "messenger" ?

 

[CoreIssue]

I believe it meant "messenger" ?

The KJV Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon
Strong's Number: 04397 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
$alm from an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Mal'ak TWOT - 1068a
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
mal-awk' Noun Masculine
Definition

1. messenger, representative
   1. messenger
   2. angel
   3. the theophanic angel

The theophanic angelIs the The Angel of the Lord, the second person of the Trinity appearing as an angel/messenger.

 

[101G]

I believe it meant "messenger" ?

Correct, angels are sometines referred to as men, or a man, hence the divine and human messenger. just as was with Jacob wrestling a man/Angel. scripture,
Gen 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.

for God makes his angel spirits,
Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

 

[GodsGrace]

The KJV Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon
Strong's Number: 04397 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
$alm from an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Mal'ak TWOT - 1068a
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
mal-awk' Noun Masculine
Definition

1. messenger, representative
   1. messenger
   2. angel
   3. the theophanic angel

The theophanic angelIs the The Angel of the Lord, the second person of the Trinity appearing as an angel/messenger.

Thanks for posting.
See, nothing is wasted !

I do believe that in the O.T. when an "angel" appeared, it certainly was the 2nd person of the Trinity since God could not be seen...God, the Father.

 

[GodsGrace]

Correct, angels are sometines referred to as men, or a man, hence the divine and human messenger. just as was with Jacob wrestling a man/Angel. scripture,
Gen 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.

for God makes his angel spirits,
Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Do you agree with my 2nd paragraph in post no.37?

 

[101G]

Do you agree with my 2nd paragraph in post no.37?

not for argument, but for understanding, if one could not see the Father how then could they see the son in the OT, for John 4:24a states "God is a, a, a, a, a Spirit" meaning ONE.

so if GOD as you say is a trinity, how can you see the second person who hasn't yet come in flesh but see him in the OT?.

now before you answer, listen to this,
1Pet 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
1Pet 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

the Spirit, notice Spirit is capitalized.

 

[GodsGrace]

not for argument, but for understanding, if one could not see the Father how then could they see the son in the OT, for John 4:24a states "God is a, a, a, a, a Spirit" meaning ONE.

so if GOD as you say is a trinity, how can you see the second person who hasn't yet come in flesh but see him in the OT?.

now before you answer, listen to this,
1Pet 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
1Pet 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

the Spirit, notice Spirit is capitalized.

GOD is spirit...God Father.
The Holy Spirit is also spirit.
Is Jesus only spirit?

Could you please read the following and comment?
I don't know who persons were seeing in the O.T. and it's not something I could be adamant about since I really don't think anyone could know for sure...but then, WHO was it??

Who were the three men who appeared to Abraham in Genesis 18? | CARM.org

If you don't have time...it's OK.