Rapture and End Time Beliefs

[farouk]

I also, will attempt to keep this conversation from falling into a black hole! And just say, I disagree completely. The doctrine of the Trinity is pulled from multiple and many, many different parts of scripture, woven together until a large, complete picture was seen. An undeniable doctrine.
The Man of Sin, while undoubtably talked about, remains 'faceless' in scripture. We are assured of his arrival on the scene at some point. We are assured of his character, and his intent. And we are assured of his demise. We are given hints of where he may come from, but as i've said, those hints are very much up for interpretation.

The Trinity - God in Three Persons - is indeed thoroughly Biblical. (End of Matthew 28, John's First Epistle, etc.)

 

[Naomi25]

John's First Epistle has useful verses about Antichrist...

Yes, he does. But again, I don't think the information he gives allows us to pin-point with certainty the location or the identity of who this man will be. Speculation is always good, but we must always admit it IS speculation, and not become locked into it. Only the bible and the information it gives must be absolute.

 

[n2thelight]

Pre-Tribulation, Mid-Tribulation, Post-Tribulation.Pre-Tribulation, Post-Millennial, Amil, Idealism etc

Pre-Tribulation, Mid-Tribulation or Post-Tribulation Definitions

Non of the above,we gather to Christ at the 2nd and only coming,period!!!

 

[CoreIssue]

Non of the above,we gather to Christ at the 2nd and only coming,period!!!

In the rapture Christ comes hidden in the clouds as a thief in the night.

At the second coming being is leading an army and will be seen by the whole world.

At the second coming there is not one word about gathering the church to him. In fact, he brings the church with him after the marriage supper of the Lamb in heaven.

From the revealing of the AC and rapture to the second coming there is absolutely no mention of the church or Christians. Then it is Israel and tribulation saints.

You cannot reconcile all these issues.

 

[Keraz]

At the second coming there is not one word about gathering the church to him. In fact, he brings the church with him after the marriage supper of the Lamb in heaven.

What a biased and totally wrong comment!
Matthew 24:30-31 At the Return.....He sends His angels to gather His Chosen from every place on earth.
We Christians are His Chosen; John 15:14-19, 1 Peter 2:9-10

The Bible does not tell us where the Marriage Supper will be held. You just assume it to be in heaven.

 

[CoreIssue]

What a biased and totally wrong comment!
Matthew 24:30-31 At the Return.....He sends His angels to gather His Chosen from every place on earth.
We Christians are His Chosen; John 15:14-19, 1 Peter 2:9-10

The Bible does not tell us where the Marriage Supper will be held. You just assume it to be in heaven.

The gathering is at the rapture, not the second coming.

It most assuredly does totals for the marriage supper will be... In heaven.

We are snatched up to heaven for the Bible and that his second coming we return to the earth with Christ from heaven.

 

[Enoch111]

The Bible does not tell us where the Marriage Supper will be held. You just assume it to be in heaven.

And where do you assume it will be?

 

[CoreIssue]

And where do you assume it will be?

Read rapture the marriage supper of the Lamb:
Commentaries by CoreIssue

 

[Keraz]

And where do you assume it will be?

We are just not told, so whatever we think, is only speculation.

However Jesus does leave heaven and those Christians who remain will meet Him, then be with Him for His Millennium reign. There is no reason for Jesus or His people to go to heaven, He has just come from heaven and we, as earth creatures; cannot go there. John 7:34
Therefore, it seems that the Marriage Feast will happen on earth, just prior to Jesus revealing Himself to all the world. As the sequence of Revelation 19:5-11 tells us.

 

[Stranger]

We are just not told, so whatever we think, is only speculation.

However Jesus does leave heaven and those Christians who remain will meet Him, then be with Him for His Millennium reign. There is no reason for Jesus or His people to go to heaven, He has just come from heaven and we, as earth creatures; cannot go there. John 7:34
Therefore, it seems that the Marriage Feast will happen on earth, just prior to Jesus revealing Himself to all the world. As the sequence of Revelation 19:5-11 tells us.

Your first sentence is incorrect as you are trying to make (1Thess. 4:16-17) speak to the Second Coming and it does not. It speaks to the Rapture, 7 years earlier.

There is every reason for believers to go to Heaven because that is where Jesus went to prepare a place for us. (John 14:2) Where did Christ go to prepare a place for the believer? Where is the Father's house?

There is no problem with the Marriage Feast taking place on earth at the beginning of the Millennium. But the Marriage Feast is not the Wedding. The Wedding would have already taken place. Thus begs the question, who are those invited to the wedding feast? They are not the bride. Did you send your wife an invitation to her own wedding?

The guests are guests, not the bride.

Stranger

 

[Keraz]

Your first sentence is incorrect as you are trying to make (1Thess. 4:16-17) speak to the Second Coming and it does not. It speaks to the Rapture, 7 years earlier.

As there is no 'rapture to heaven' of the Church, your attempt to fit a 'rapture' into 1 Thess 4:15-17, fails miserably. My Bible headlines Paul's prophecy there, as: Christs Return:

There is every reason for believers to go to Heaven because that is where Jesus went to prepare a place for us. (John 14:2) Where did Christ go to prepare a place for the believer? Where is the Father's house?

Heaven is a Spiritual place, we never go there. Eventually God and therefore heaven come to us on earth. Revelation 21:1-7

There is no problem with the Marriage Feast taking place on earth at the beginning of the Millennium. But the Marriage Feast is not the Wedding. The Wedding would have already taken place. Thus begs the question, who are those invited to the wedding feast? They are not the bride. Did you send your wife an invitation to her own wedding?

The 'bride' and the guests are just allegories for all the people who have kept their faith during the testing times ahead.
What you think you will escape from; a serious error that may disadvantage you. Avoiding trials and discipline is wrong too; Hebrews 12:7-8

 

[CoreIssue]

As there is no 'rapture to heaven' of the Church, your attempt to fit a 'rapture' into 1 Thess 4:15-17, fails miserably. My Bible headlines Paul's prophecy there, as: Christs Return:

Heaven is a Spiritual place, we never go there. Eventually God and therefore heaven come to us on earth. Revelation 21:1-7

The 'bride' and the guests are just allegories for all the people who have kept their faith during the testing times ahead.
What you think you will escape from; a serious error that may disadvantage you. Avoiding trials and discipline is wrong too; Hebrews 12:7-8

Marriage Super of the Lamb

 

[Stranger]

As there is no 'rapture to heaven' of the Church, your attempt to fit a 'rapture' into 1 Thess 4:15-17, fails miserably. My Bible headlines Paul's prophecy there, as: Christs Return:

Heaven is a Spiritual place, we never go there. Eventually God and therefore heaven come to us on earth. Revelation 21:1-7

The 'bride' and the guests are just allegories for all the people who have kept their faith during the testing times ahead.
What you think you will escape from; a serious error that may disadvantage you. Avoiding trials and discipline is wrong too; Hebrews 12:7-8

Your Bible headlines are not inspired. Your belief that there is no Rapture is an assumption at best. I don't try and fit 'rapture' into (1Thess. 4:15-17). That is exactly what it is. All one has to do is read it.

Again, you didn't answer the questions. Where did Christ go to prepare a place for the believer? Where is the Father's house? (John 14:2)

Does God the Father get to be in Heaven or is He also excluded in your theology?

The bride and the guests are allegories? Who says? You? What made them allegories? Is the Wedding and allegory? Is the Wedding feast an allegory. Is Jesus Christ an allegory. What makes something an allegory and something not?

You say avoiding trials is wrong. What is wrong if God sends the deliverance from the trial. (Rev. 3:10) "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come uipon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

Oh, let me guess. This is just an allegory. What it really means is spiritual things that only Keraz can describe.

Stranger

 

[Keraz]

Your Bible headlines are not inspired. Your belief that there is no Rapture is an assumption at best. I don't try and fit 'rapture' into (1Thess. 4:15-17). That is exactly what it is. All one has to do is read it.

I and many others read it and do not see any 'rapture to heaven' there.
It describes a transportation from one earth location to another. The precedent for this is Philip, Acts 8:39

The whole 'rapture' theory is assumption, conjecture, supposition and a fabrication, that conflicts with what the prophets plianly say the Lord has planned for our future.

 

[CoreIssue]

I and many others read it and do not see any 'rapture to heaven' there.
It describes a transportation from one earth location to another. The precedent for this is Philip, Acts 8:39

The whole 'rapture' theory is assumption, conjecture, supposition and a fabrication, that conflicts with what the prophets plianly say the Lord has planned for our future.

Hello, the rapture is not based on one verse alone.

The verses plainly and clearly state we go up into the clouds to be with the Lord.

How you can get relocation on the earth out of that is pure imagination on your part.

The verses plainly and clearly state we go up into the clouds to be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 New International Version (NIV)
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Matthew 24:36-44 New International Version (NIV)
The Day and Hour Unknown
36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,a]">[a] but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

No correlation with Philip

39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing.

 

[Stranger]

I and many others read it and do not see any 'rapture to heaven' there.
It describes a transportation from one earth location to another. The precedent for this is Philip, Acts 8:39

The whole 'rapture' theory is assumption, conjecture, supposition and a fabrication, that conflicts with what the prophets plianly say the Lord has planned for our future.

Yes I know, you force your interpretation upon the Scripture.

(Acts 8:39) is not a rapture in any way shape or form. Now you are reaching.

Why don't you answer my questions? Are they to telling? Do they confuse you? Do they prove you wrong?

Stranger

 

[Enoch111]

The whole 'rapture' theory is assumption, conjecture, supposition and a fabrication, that conflicts with what the prophets plainly say the Lord has planned for our future.

Sorry but you are HUGELY MISTAKEN. You might want to set aside your biased preconceptions, and go back and study every related passage ( and there are more than a few).

 

[Keraz]

3 against 1, good odds! I am well aware that I am outnumbered, just as the ancient prophets were. I promote what they Wrote, so opposition is just to be expected. And I will not stop refuting Satanic lies.

Hello, the rapture is not based on one verse alone.

Too bad none of them actually say the God will 'rapture' anyone to heaven.
Your 2 scriptures don't say anything about a removal from the earth.

Yes I know, you force your interpretation upon the Scripture.

It is the 'rapture' believers who force their theory onto scripture.
Your question about measuring the heavens, is a nonsense, God will fulfil His Promises to the patriarchs, thru their descendants by faith; Galatians 3:26-29 and Romans 9:24-26 plainly state this truth. You reject God's Word to your discredit.

Sorry but you are HUGELY MISTAKEN. You might want to set aside your biased preconceptions, and go back and study every related passage ( and there are more than a few)

I know the Bible very well, having intensively studied it for many years. The mistake is yours, for believing false teaching.
I have no preconceptions, just reading and understanding the plain Words of scripture, like how Jesus said many times that it was impossible for people to go to heaven.
Revelation 13:10......all this, [the Great Tribulation] calls for the endurance and faithfulness of God's people. And do not think there are 2 peoples of God. John 17:0-23, Ephesians 4:4-6, +

 

[CoreIssue]

3 against 1, good odds! I am well aware that I am outnumbered, just as the ancient prophets were. I promote what they Wrote, so opposition is just to be expected. And I will not stop refuting Satanic lies.

Your problem is they did not teach what you claim.

Too bad none of them actually say the God will 'rapture' anyone to heaven.
Your 2 scriptures don't say anything about a removal from the earth.

So what does coming down and going up in the clouds mean? Sure not relocating in different places on the earth.

The word rapture is not in the Bible. It is the English word for the Greek one which means snatched away.

So so what these portions of the verses mean to you then?
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven,
After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

Then there is revelations 3:10:
Revelation 3:10 New International Version (NIV)
10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

Keep from in the Greek is Tereo Ek which means to protect by removal. Since it is the whole earth that demands removal from the earth.

Hour of trial

The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 5610 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
w&ra apparently a primary word
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Hora 9:675,1355
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ho'-rah Noun Feminine
Definition

1. 
   
   
   • a certain definite time or season fixed by natural law and returning with the revolving year
     1. of the seasons of the year, spring, summer, autumn, winter
   • the daytime (bounded by the rising and setting of the sun), a day
   • a twelfth part of the day-time, an hour, (the twelve hours of the day are reckoned from the rising to the setting of the sun)
   • any definite time, point of time, moment

The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 3986 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
peirasmovß from (3985)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Peirasmos 6:23,822
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
pi-ras-mos' Noun Masculine
Definition

1. 
   
   
   • an experiment, attempt, trial, proving
     1. trial, proving: the trial made of you by my bodily condition, since condition served as to test the love of the Galatians toward Paul (Gal. 4:
   • 1. the trial of man's fidelity, integrity, virtue, constancy
        1. an enticement to sin, temptation, whether arising from the desires or from the outward circumstances
        2. an internal temptation to sin 1b
     2. of the temptation by which the devil sought to divert Jesus the Messiah from his divine errand
        1. of the condition of things, or a mental state, by which we are enticed to sin, or to a lapse from the faith and holiness
        2. adversity, affliction, trouble: sent by God and serving to test or prove one's character, faith, holiness
     3. temptation (i.e. trial) of God by men
        1. rebellion against God, by which his power and justice are, as it were, put to the proof and challenged to show themselves

It is the 'rapture' believers who force their theory onto scripture.
Your question about measuring the heavens, is a nonsense, God will fulfil His Promises to the patriarchs, thru their descendants by faith; Galatians 3:26-29 and Romans 9:24-26 plainly state this truth. You reject God's Word to your discredit.

The verses I listed are not forcing a theory on. They clear-cut teach rapture.

I know the Bible very well, having intensively studied it for many years. The mistake is yours, for believing false teaching.
I have no preconceptions, just reading and understanding the plain Words of scripture, like how Jesus said many times that it was impossible for people to go to heaven.
Revelation 13:10......all this, [the Great Tribulation] calls for the endurance and faithfulness of God's people. And do not think there are 2 peoples of God. John 17:0-23, Ephesians 4:4-6,

I studied the Bible for 57 years. So your argument on that score is meaningless to me.

What you're saying is not plainly stated in the Bible. You are a conclusion in search of evidence.

Impossible for people to go to heaven? What about Enoch and Elijah? They have been there for many centuries.
+

 

[Enoch111]

Too bad none of them actually say the God will 'rapture' anyone to heaven.

Just because the word "rapture" is not in the Bible does not mean that the doctrine is false. The Greek harpagesometha means "caught up together" and if the Church is to meet the Lord "in the air" then the obvious destination is Heaven (as confirmed by other Scriptures which refer to "my Father's house").

The English word rapture is derived from the Latin rapiemur, which is the translation for "caught up together".

hoc enim vobis dicimus in verbo Domini quia nos qui vivimus qui residui sumus in adventum Domini non praeveniemus eos qui dormierunt quoniam ipse Dominus in iussu et in voce archangeli et in tuba Dei descendet de caelo et mortui qui in Christo sunt resurgent primi deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus (1 Thess 4:15-17)

Of course, you are free to disbelieve anything in the Bible, but if you disbelieve this doctrine, you might as well disbelieve everything else. Just as Enoch was *translated* to Heaven, the Church will also be *translated* to Heaven(if you wish to avoid rapture).