Rapture and End Time Beliefs

[brakelite]

Hmmm, there are some really good points here that I agree with. Revelation does indeed tell us that history is a "tale of two cities", as it were. But here's a question. If Rome, as it were, is the AC, why is the US going to be the second beast? Do you think they will be working together? How likely is that outside the pages of scipture and metaphorical images? In fact, if any growing superpower (Country wise) would make me wonder about forced worship, I often look at China, and it's "social program". The millions of cameras they have which loop back to a persons "point score", which then tells them if they have certain rights based on that score. That's scary. And I just can't imagine the US getting something like that off the ground! Not with the American people as they are at the moment!

Okay, fair enough. Those are good questions. And don't forget that standing in the way of any church/state union in the US is the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Or at least that is what many are holding on to as their hope for continuing republicanism. But how real is that hope when one considers the following...

• The constitution does not make or break laws...the Supreme Court does.
• The Supreme Court is made up predominantly by Catholics. I don't think one Protestant among them, although I may stand to be corrected on that after recent nominations.

Then, consider the implications of the following....memes say so much don't they? Pictures paint a thousand words etc etc???

 

[brakelite]

@Naomi25 May I offer this also...I am sure you will find this interesting...

 

[Naomi25]

My apologies, Naomi. I do not mean to question your character.
But I do question your and most other Christians ability to discern what the Bible Prophets wrote. All of them, including Jonah tell of how the wrath of God can and will fall upon the ungodly peoples.
Jesus said that He would come unexpectedly, in fire and destroy His enemies. As John prophesied; Matthew 3:11-12

We who study the prophesies should know about and be prepared for it.

I actually agree with you. I would think most do, ultimately. I suppose the 'road' to getting there differs, depending on which end times system you adhere to, but surely most must agree that the bible teaches that at the end Gods offer of grace will end, and the nations that have rejected it and sort repeatedly after their own ways and evil will be judged.

 

[Keraz]

I actually agree with you. I would think most do, ultimately. I suppose the 'road' to getting there differs, depending on which end times system you adhere to, but surely most must agree that the bible teaches that at the end Gods offer of grace will end, and the nations that have rejected it and sort repeatedly after their own ways and evil will be judged.

Thanks.
The end time system that I adhere to, is the one laid out in Revelation; the given sequence of the 7 Seals, of which the first five were opened at Jesus' Ascension. Revelation 5:7
The Sixth Seal is the Lord's Day of wrath against the nations, as per Psalms 83, the thread I started on Habakkuk and over 100 other prophesies, that will change the world as we know it. Then the Seventh Seal is a time gap of 'about 20 years' until the Return.
The 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls are the Great Tribulation, that will happen during the last 3 1/2 years prior to Jesus Returning.
This sequence is logical and can be confirmed by all the other prophesies.

 

[farouk]

... surely most must agree that the bible teaches that at the end Gods offer of grace will end, and the nations that have rejected it and sort repeatedly after their own ways and evil will be judged.

I would hope that true Christians would indeed believe this.

I do think it's a pity that so many professing Christians seem rather cynical about sincerely trusting God's Word about future events and His sovereign control over them.

 

[Stranger]

The context that you ignore is the entire teachings of Jesus. How He came to offer Salvation to all who will accept it.
We Christians are now the Israelites of God, His Overcomers and the Victorious ones, as seen in each of the 7 church's of Revelation 2 & 3.

Those 2 scriptures prove how deceived you and all the 'rapture to heaven' believers are.
Neither of them say anyone goes to heaven. 1 Thess 4:13-17 is just a prophecy about the Return of Jesus, when He sends out His angels to gather His own people to Himself. Matthew 24:31
1 Corinthians 15:50-56 is another prophecy; about what will happen at the Great White Throne Judgement. Only then, is Death done away with and those whose names are Written in the Book of Life are given immortality.

Yes, we Christians are a people apart and our proof of citizenship of the Kingdom is kept in heaven. But we never go to live there, tho eventually God will dwell with mankind, therefore heaven comes to us. Revelation 21:1-7

I say: You are deceived and confused and I doubt we will sort it out, as you are locked into your beliefs and I will never compromise the Word, so only as things finally happen will the truths be known to all.

(John 14:2-3) "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself: that where I am there ye may be also."

(1 Thess. 4:16-17) "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel,...Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

(Heb. 10:34) "...knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance."

(1 Peter 1:3-4) "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ...hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. To an inheritance incorruptible , and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,"

Concerning (Matt. 24:31) you are in the wrong time period. This occurs at the end of the Tribulation, and is the Second Coming of Christ. The Rapture occurs prior to the Tribulation.

Understand also, though you have this aversion of going to heaven, in the end, earth will be just a part of heaven. God will create a new heaven and earth. (Rev. 21) No trace of sin or it's affects anymore.

Stranger

 

[Naomi25]

Okay, fair enough. Those are good questions. And don't forget that standing in the way of any church/state union in the US is the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Or at least that is what many are holding on to as their hope for continuing republicanism. But how real is that hope when one considers the following...

• The constitution does not make or break laws...the Supreme Court does.
• The Supreme Court is made up predominantly by Catholics. I don't think one Protestant among them, although I may stand to be corrected on that after recent nominations.

Then, consider the implications of the following....memes say so much don't they? Pictures paint a thousand words etc etc???
View attachment 4776 View attachment 4777

Well...to give your opinion its due, the democrats are doing their level best to do away with all of those things that hold America steady. Democracy, voting...the Supreme Court. I honestly think that if Hilary had gotten in, we might be half way to somewhere where a scenario like you paint could be 'doable'.
And I think that's something we all need to remember when we're discussing these things. God holds the fates of nations in his hands. He can turn, build up or destroy in a single day if he choses. The bible is constant and should be our compass, I think. Don't we sometimes wish it would spell these things out in a much more forthright manner, and expell some of the arguementation and debate on these things?
But then I tell myself that there must have been a reason for there not to be. Perhaps debate keeps us alert, keeps us scanning the horizon of Countries and leaders for who could match up with what the bible talks about in those last days.
Anyway...it's nice to know, however we differ, that I can always enjoy a good musing with you, and ask some questions without offending!

 

[farouk]

(John 14:2-3) "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself: that where I am there ye may be also."

(1 Thess. 4:16-17) "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel,...Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

(Heb. 10:34) "...knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance."

(1 Peter 1:3-4) "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ...hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. To an inheritance incorruptible , and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,"

Precious verses that have been an inspiration and comfort to many!

 

[Naomi25]

Thanks.
The end time system that I adhere to, is the one laid out in Revelation; the given sequence of the 7 Seals, of which the first five were opened at Jesus' Ascension. Revelation 5:7
The Sixth Seal is the Lord's Day of wrath against the nations, as per Psalms 83, the thread I started on Habakkuk and over 100 other prophesies, that will change the world as we know it. Then the Seventh Seal is a time gap of 'about 20 years' until the Return.
The 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls are the Great Tribulation, that will happen during the last 3 1/2 years prior to Jesus Returning.
This sequence is logical and can be confirmed by all the other prophesies.

I don't know that i've heard about that sequence before! So...you see the sixth seal as an event that must take place next? And then the seventh...the 20 year gap?

 

[farouk]

Well...to give your opinion its due, the democrats are doing their level best to do away with all of those things that hold America steady. Democracy, voting...the Supreme Court. I honestly think that if Hilary had gotten in, we might be half way to somewhere where a scenario like you paint could be 'doable'.
And I think that's something we all need to remember when we're discussing these things. God holds the fates of nations in his hands. He can turn, build up or destroy in a single day if he choses. The bible is constant and should be our compass, I think. Don't we sometimes wish it would spell these things out in a much more forthright manner, and expell some of the arguementation and debate on these things?
But then I tell myself that there must have been a reason for there not to be. Perhaps debate keeps us alert, keeps us scanning the horizon of Countries and leaders for who could match up with what the bible talks about in those last days.
Anyway...it's nice to know, however we differ, that I can always enjoy a good musing with you, and ask some questions without offending!

We need to keep looking up, right?

"Looking unto Jesus..." (Hebrews 12.2)

 

[Naomi25]

I would hope that true Christians would indeed believe this.

I do think it's a pity that so many professing Christians seem rather cynical about sincerely trusting God's Word about future events and His sovereign control over them.

Agreed. I know many find judgement and hell horrible. And they are. They are horrible to contemplate. But we must understand what the nature of a holy and just God is, one who is sovereign. We must, as mortals who are limited in understand, trust that the same God who provided such an amazing way of rescue for wretches such as us, will act in a way that is right. Whatever action he takes will be completely justified and necessary. I absolutely believe this, and believe that we must not only trust in it, but praise him for it. In fact, Revelation tells us that we do.

 

[farouk]

Agreed. I know many find judgement and hell horrible. And they are. They are horrible to contemplate. But we must understand what the nature of a holy and just God is, one who is sovereign. We must, as mortals who are limited in understand, trust that the same God who provided such an amazing way of rescue for wretches such as us, will act in a way that is right. Whatever action he takes will be completely justified and necessary. I absolutely believe this, and believe that we must not only trust in it, but praise him for it. In fact, Revelation tells us that we do.

Hebrews 1 speaks of the necessity for the Lord Jesus to purge our sins; why else would He do so - in wondrous grace and love - if it were not necessary to do so for the believer to be saved?

 

[brakelite]

Well...to give your opinion its due, the democrats are doing their level best to do away with all of those things that hold America steady. Democracy, voting...the Supreme Court. I honestly think that if Hilary had gotten in, we might be half way to somewhere where a scenario like you paint could be 'doable'.
And I think that's something we all need to remember when we're discussing these things. God holds the fates of nations in his hands. He can turn, build up or destroy in a single day if he choses. The bible is constant and should be our compass, I think. Don't we sometimes wish it would spell these things out in a much more forthright manner, and expell some of the arguementation and debate on these things?
But then I tell myself that there must have been a reason for there not to be. Perhaps debate keeps us alert, keeps us scanning the horizon of Countries and leaders for who could match up with what the bible talks about in those last days.
Anyway...it's nice to know, however we differ, that I can always enjoy a good musing with you, and ask some questions without offending!

Looking to the archetypical enemies of God, aka democrats, Freemasons, occultists etc etc does not resolve the central theme regarding the false worship that is enforced in the last days... Deception. We normally expect our enemies to do their worst to us. No surprise there. But Jesus did it most dangerous enemies are those in our own household. Brothers. Sisters. Fathers. Mothers. Children. Because they are deceived. I believe we should take our collective eyes off our more traditional foes, and look to our so called brothers and sisters in Christ. Left wing liberals have no interest in establishing any form of worship... Certainly not through legislation. But the more conservative minded Christian right?

 

[Stranger]

Precious verses that have been an inspiration and comfort to many!

Yes they have and continue to be.

Stranger

 

[farouk]

Yes they have and continue to be.

Stranger

Indeed!

 

[Keraz]

(John 14:2-3)

Is a prophecy about the New Jerusalem, that will appear after the Millennium. Revelation 21:2

(1 Thess. 4:16-17)

Already addressed- why post this verse that describes the Return of Jesus again?

(Heb. 10:34)

Our citizenship and our names are kept in heaven, but this verse in no way says we go to live there.

(1 Peter 1:3-4)

Same as above.

Concerning (Matt. 24:31) you are in the wrong time period. This occurs at the end of the Tribulation, and is the Second Coming of Christ .

I agree; the gathering by angels is at the Return.

The Rapture occurs prior to the Tribulation.

THIS is what I object to! A bald statement, totally unsupported and obviously you don't know when, but you just blindly believe it will happen.

You are deceived by the false teaching of a 'rapture to heaven'. It is nowhere to be found in the Bible, but what really will happen, is found there. We will all pass thru testing as 1 Peter 4:12 tells us. Those who stand firm in their faith have a great future to look forward to!

 

[Keraz]

I don't know that i've heard about that sequence before! So...you see the sixth seal as an event that must take place next? And then the seventh...the 20 year gap?

The Revelation sequence of the 7 Seals first, as with an actual scroll; the seals must be removed before the scroll can be unrolled. The first five are open, as we have had wars, famines, plagues and the martyrs have been killed since Stephen.
Next to happen is the Sixth Seal; the well described Day of the Lord's wrath by fire from the sun, Isaiah 30:26, earthquakes, storms and tsunamis, that will set the scene for all the rest of the end time events; leading up to the Return of Jesus.
The Seventh Seal is about a half hour of silence in heaven. This is easily calculated as 'about 20 years earth time', using the 2 witnesses given; Psalms 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8, of one day to God being equal to 1000 years earth time. A half hour; 1/48 of a day = 1/48 of 1000 years.
The 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls are the Great Tribulation, that will occur during the last 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns.

 

[Stranger]

Is a prophecy about the New Jerusalem, that will appear after the Millennium. Revelation 21:2

Already addressed- why post this verse that describes the Return of Jesus again?

Our citizenship and our names are kept in heaven, but this verse in no way says we go to live there.

Same as above.

I agree; the gathering by angels is at the Return.

THIS is what I object to! A bald statement, totally unsupported and obviously you don't know when, but you just blindly believe it will happen.

You are deceived by the false teaching of a 'rapture to heaven'. It is nowhere to be found in the Bible, but what really will happen, is found there. We will all pass thru testing as 1 Peter 4:12 tells us. Those who stand firm in their faith have a great future to look forward to!

Concerning (John 14:2-3), no it's not.

Concrning (1 Thess. 4:16-17) You may have addressed it. But you did so wrongfully. Just because you addressed it...means nothing. This verse is about the translation of the Churchm not the return of Jesus.

(Heb. 10:34) "...knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance."

(1 Peter 1:4) "...reserved in heaven for you,...."

Concrning (Matt. 24:31), again, you are in the wrong time period. Do you agree?

(1 Peter 4:12) has nothing to do with the Tribulation period.

Stranger

 

[Naomi25]

Looking to the archetypical enemies of God, aka democrats, Freemasons, occultists etc etc does not resolve the central theme regarding the false worship that is enforced in the last days... Deception. We normally expect our enemies to do their worst to us. No surprise there. But Jesus did it most dangerous enemies are those in our own household. Brothers. Sisters. Fathers. Mothers. Children. Because they are deceived. I believe we should take our collective eyes off our more traditional foes, and look to our so called brothers and sisters in Christ. Left wing liberals have no interest in establishing any form of worship... Certainly not through legislation. But the more conservative minded Christian right?

I'm not sure I totally agree with you here. Those who deceive...deliberately, with the intent of leading others astray, yes, I believe they are our enemies, and the enemies of God. But those who are deceived...those who have been tricked, for want of a better word, into believing that which in not true...I believe that God would have us not looking upon them as enemies, but as the lost who need to find the truth. And I'm not sure that might be achieved if battle lines are drawn, intents of war stated, etc. Especially when it comes to things of God, and what people have been taught in error about him. I truly don't think going on the offense, calling them out for being enemies of God will have any positive outcome. Rather, we should attempt to show them...show all those who are deceived...through the truth of God's word, what is right, and what is in error. Make them think about it in a non-combative way, and let the Spirit work.

However...back to those who deliberately deceive. And there's plenty of those in every denomination, I would agree...oh yeah they are our enemies. The bible has some pretty heavy things to say about them.

But to begin to glance sideways at fellow-believers and wonder if they are end times deceivers...I don't know. I think that might be very divisive and only lead to mistrust in the body where there should be unity. We need to trust Christ to have and hold all things, and move forward in loving him and loving others. Yes persecution will come. It will probably come from all sides. But that should not be our primary concern...not even up to death. Honestly...if I thought that talking to my daughter about Jesus could be a 50/50 result of death for me or eternal life for her...it's a bit of a no-brainer!

 

[Keraz]

Concerning (John 14:2-3), no it's not.

Concrning (1 Thess. 4:16-17) You may have addressed it. But you did so wrongfully. Just because you addressed it...means nothing. This verse is about the translation of the Churchm not the return of Jesus.

(Heb. 10:34) "...knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance."

(1 Peter 1:4) "...reserved in heaven for you,...."

Concrning (Matt. 24:31), again, you are in the wrong time period. Do you agree?

(1 Peter 4:12) has nothing to do with the Tribulation period.

Stranger

I have refuted all of these scriptures; none of them say anything about humans going to live in heaven. You just add that.
What you miss, is the great promises of God to his faithful people, now every born again Christian. Great blessings of peace and prosperity, as we all live in all of the holy Land, being the people He always wanted there; His witnesses, Isaiah 43-10, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations. Isaiah 49:8, Matthew 5:14-16