Rapture and End Time Beliefs

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CoreIssue

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Please provide an example of this.
To help you: I post the prophesies that tell us how God will assemble His holy people into all of the holy Land. Tell us where the Bible says all the faithful Christians will gather somewhere else.

Oh boy, you're trying to run away from the topic at hand, which is the rapture.

Deal with the verses and information you've been given. You have failed to respond to any of them simply because you would have to accept them as provided.
 

Keraz

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Of course, you are free to disbelieve anything in the Bible, but if you disbelieve this doctrine, you might as well disbelieve everything else. Just as Enoch was *translated* to Heaven, the Church will also be *translated* to Heaven(if you wish to avoid rapture).
I disbelieve nothing in the Bible. But I do disbelieve theories that contradict Bible teaching. Jesus said: No-one goes to heaven except the One who came from there. John 3:13 That is part of an important Christian teaching, as it goes on to John 3:16.
Rapture believers discount it, to their discredit.
 

Keraz

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Oh boy, you're trying to run away from the topic at hand, which is the rapture.

Deal with the verses and information you've been given. You have failed to respond to any of them simply because you would have to accept them as provided.
Rubbish, you are trying; unsuccessfully, to divert the issue.
I have addressed your scriptures; NONE of them even mention heaven, let alone that Christians will go there.

WILL WE SHALL GO TO HEAVEN ONE DAY?....
And if this is a fundamental plain teaching of the Bible, then surely we should be able to find many verses all over the Bible saying things such as: "When we get to heaven," "When we see each other in heaven," "They are up there in heaven with God," "We shall go to heaven at Christ's return," "We shall be in heaven where God is one day." BUT VERSES LIKE THIS CANNOT BE FOUND IN THE BIBLE!

BUT, what we do read in the Bible is the Words of Jesus: No man goes to heaven, except the One who came from there. John 3:13 Where I go, you cannot come. John 7:34 Your home is in this world, Mine is not. John 8:23 I do not pray, Father, that You take them out of this world.... John 17:15

So the truth is, the idea of a 'rapture to heaven', is a straight out Satanic lie; one of his most successful ones, that will cause many unprepared Christians to fall on the Day of trial. 1 Peter 4:12, 1 Corinthians 3:13-15

Most Christians think that heaven is our destination and preachers tout it from the pulpit. Why then didn't the people of the Bible use such language? Could it be that they knew that going off to heaven where God the Father now dwells was NEVER promised to any earthy mortal person?

The word "heaven" is used 570 times in the Bible. "Heavenly" appears 23 times and "heavens" is used 121 times. Surely, somewhere, in all those uses we can find a statement: "When we are in heaven" or "We are going to go to heaven" or maybe "He has gone to God in heaven." If you take a Bible concordance you can find all the verses where "heaven," "heavenly," and heavens" are used throughout the Bible. Look them up! See if you can find a verse that says, "We shall go to heaven," "Heaven is our eternal abode," "They are up in heaven" or any plain statement about Christians or children of God going to be with God in heaven for ANY length of time. You have over 500 places where "heaven" is used. Try to find any verse that tells us clearly we shall someday, sometime, go to live where God the Father dwells.

There are THREE heavens mentioned in the Bible. 1) The heaven [atmosphere] where the birds fly. 2) the heaven [space] where the planets and stars are. 3) The heaven [spiritual] where God's throne is, where God is now.

I knew a man in Christ.... caught up to the THIRD heaven....He was caught up into Paradise, and heard unspeakable words....2 Cor. 12:2-4 The third heaven is where God dwells!

KINGDOM OF HEAVEN ?
Some will say, "Well Christ talked about our being in the Kingdom of heaven. Surely that proves we shall 'go to heaven'. If it does, then some shall be in heaven while others are not. Matthew 5:3-5. Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of heaven....blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. The Kingdom OF heaven is the Kingdom that BELONGS to heaven. It is owned and operated by heaven. the Kingdom that BELONGS to God, not the Kingdom inside God. The Gospels according to Mark and Luke use "Kingdom OF God"

OUR REWARD IS IN HEAVEN
Is not our reward to go to heaven? Are there not some verses that say something to that effect? Here they are: Rejoice, and be exceeding glad; for great is your reward in heaven.... Matthew 5:12 Do not display your religion before others, if you do you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. Matthew 6:1 But lay up for yourselves treasure in heaven.....Luke 6:23 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled…reserved in heaven for you. 1 Peter 1:4

Now, let's be honest. Do the above verses say: "Our reward is to get to heaven" or "When we get to heaven we shall be given our reward." Do these verses say: "Our reserved inheritance is to get to heaven to be with God" ? No, they do not! Truly, Christians will receive rewards and we are to inherit eternal life, but when? Eternal life comes at the resurrection. Read 1 Cor.15; Rev.2:10; 2 Tim.4:8 Our rewards are to be given to us by Christ at His return. And, behold, I come quickly, and MY REWARD IS WITH ME, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Rev. 22:12 Our rewards and inheritance are reserved in heaven. They come down out of heaven with Christ at his return.

NAMED TO GO TO HEAVEN?
Are not Christians named and written down in a book to go to heaven? ….but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven Luke 10:20 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven....Heb. 12:23
Do these verses say, "Because you will go to heaven" or "The church of the firstborn will one day get to heaven" ? No! Our names (God knows who are His) are written down in the book of

life, the book of life being in heaven. But we receive life eternal after the Great White Throne Judgement, when the Book of Life is opened. Revelation 20:11-15

OUR HOPE....TO GO TO HEAVEN?
For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel. Col.1:5 What is the hope for Christians? Paul answers in another letter he wrote: But if there be NO RESURRECTION of the dead, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.....then they which are also fallen asleep in Christ are PERISHED....For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man on his own order: Christ the firstfruits: AFTERWARDS they that are Christ's AT HIS COMING. 1 Cor. 15: 13-23

Our HOPE is Christ, who has been raised from the dead and is now in heaven, waiting to be sent back to this earth when He shall RESURRECT the DEAD. 1 Thes.4: 16

Colossians 1:5 does NOT say, "Our hope is to get to heaven." Or "The church's hope is to be with Christ in heaven." It says: our HOPE is kept in heaven. That hope is Christ and His Return. Philippians 3:20 Christian believers are citizens of heaven and from heaven we can expect our Deliverer to come: The Lord Jesus Christ.

Notice! This Kingdom is in heaven that we are citizens of. If we be Christ's, we belong to His family. We are brothers of His, we are part of God's family, His children, and so of His government, kingdom, which is at present in heaven. Not that we are in heaven, for the reality is: we live on earth, but the Kingdom, where our citizenship is; that we now belong to, is in heaven.

NO MAN HAS EVER GONE TO HEAVEN
Here is a plain and easy to understand verse: And NO MAN has ASCENDED up to heaven, except for He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. John 3:13 BELIEVE what Christ said, He should know. He was in heaven with the Father from the beginning, and He did not see any human ever come from earth up to heaven. It’s indisputable, Enoch could not have gone to the third heaven, neither did Moses, nor did Elijah. All humans who have ever lived, or will live, up to the Return of Jesus and are not still alive when Jesus comes, will sleep in death. They will be in the grave, and the martyrs, those killed for their faith, Revelation 20:4, wait to hear the voice of the Son of man, to rise from the dead in a resurrection. Then, for a thousand years they shall reign with Christ on His throne over this earth, as they establish the Kingdom of God on earth.

At the end of the thousand years comes the new heavens and the new earth. Then the heavenly Jerusalem together with God the Father will come from heaven to this new earth, which will then become the dwelling place of the throne of the universe for all Eternity.

What we can say is that we, the children of God, will one day be in heaven.....yes.....when heaven comes to earth. Revelation 21:1-4 But what we cannot say is that any human will be taken up to heaven to avoid the wrath to come. The Lord promises protection to all these who place their trust in Him and this may be a profound spiritual experience. Nahum 1:1-8, Isaiah 43:2, + Ref: Keith Hunt
 

CoreIssue

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Rubbish, you are trying; unsuccessfully, to divert the issue.
I have addressed your scriptures; NONE of them even mention heaven, let alone that Christians will go there.

WILL WE SHALL GO TO HEAVEN ONE DAY?....
And if this is a fundamental plain teaching of the Bible, then surely we should be able to find many verses all over the Bible saying things such as: "When we get to heaven," "When we see each other in heaven," "They are up there in heaven with God," "We shall go to heaven at Christ's return," "We shall be in heaven where God is one day." BUT VERSES LIKE THIS CANNOT BE FOUND IN THE BIBLE!

BUT, what we do read in the Bible is the Words of Jesus: No man goes to heaven, except the One who came from there. John 3:13 Where I go, you cannot come. John 7:34 Your home is in this world, Mine is not. John 8:23 I do not pray, Father, that You take them out of this world.... John 17:15

So the truth is, the idea of a 'rapture to heaven', is a straight out Satanic lie; one of his most successful ones, that will cause many unprepared Christians to fall on the Day of trial. 1 Peter 4:12, 1 Corinthians 3:13-15

Most Christians think that heaven is our destination and preachers tout it from the pulpit. Why then didn't the people of the Bible use such language? Could it be that they knew that going off to heaven where God the Father now dwells was NEVER promised to any earthy mortal person?

The word "heaven" is used 570 times in the Bible. "Heavenly" appears 23 times and "heavens" is used 121 times. Surely, somewhere, in all those uses we can find a statement: "When we are in heaven" or "We are going to go to heaven" or maybe "He has gone to God in heaven." If you take a Bible concordance you can find all the verses where "heaven," "heavenly," and heavens" are used throughout the Bible. Look them up! See if you can find a verse that says, "We shall go to heaven," "Heaven is our eternal abode," "They are up in heaven" or any plain statement about Christians or children of God going to be with God in heaven for ANY length of time. You have over 500 places where "heaven" is used. Try to find any verse that tells us clearly we shall someday, sometime, go to live where God the Father dwells.

There are THREE heavens mentioned in the Bible. 1) The heaven [atmosphere] where the birds fly. 2) the heaven [space] where the planets and stars are. 3) The heaven [spiritual] where God's throne is, where God is now.

I knew a man in Christ.... caught up to the THIRD heaven....He was caught up into Paradise, and heard unspeakable words....2 Cor. 12:2-4 The third heaven is where God dwells!

KINGDOM OF HEAVEN ?
Some will say, "Well Christ talked about our being in the Kingdom of heaven. Surely that proves we shall 'go to heaven'. If it does, then some shall be in heaven while others are not. Matthew 5:3-5. Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of heaven....blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. The Kingdom OF heaven is the Kingdom that BELONGS to heaven. It is owned and operated by heaven. the Kingdom that BELONGS to God, not the Kingdom inside God. The Gospels according to Mark and Luke use "Kingdom OF God"

OUR REWARD IS IN HEAVEN
Is not our reward to go to heaven? Are there not some verses that say something to that effect? Here they are: Rejoice, and be exceeding glad; for great is your reward in heaven.... Matthew 5:12 Do not display your religion before others, if you do you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. Matthew 6:1 But lay up for yourselves treasure in heaven.....Luke 6:23 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled…reserved in heaven for you. 1 Peter 1:4

Now, let's be honest. Do the above verses say: "Our reward is to get to heaven" or "When we get to heaven we shall be given our reward." Do these verses say: "Our reserved inheritance is to get to heaven to be with God" ? No, they do not! Truly, Christians will receive rewards and we are to inherit eternal life, but when? Eternal life comes at the resurrection. Read 1 Cor.15; Rev.2:10; 2 Tim.4:8 Our rewards are to be given to us by Christ at His return. And, behold, I come quickly, and MY REWARD IS WITH ME, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Rev. 22:12 Our rewards and inheritance are reserved in heaven. They come down out of heaven with Christ at his return.

NAMED TO GO TO HEAVEN?
Are not Christians named and written down in a book to go to heaven? ….but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven Luke 10:20 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven....Heb. 12:23
Do these verses say, "Because you will go to heaven" or "The church of the firstborn will one day get to heaven" ? No! Our names (God knows who are His) are written down in the book of

life, the book of life being in heaven. But we receive life eternal after the Great White Throne Judgement, when the Book of Life is opened. Revelation 20:11-15

OUR HOPE....TO GO TO HEAVEN?
For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel. Col.1:5 What is the hope for Christians? Paul answers in another letter he wrote: But if there be NO RESURRECTION of the dead, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.....then they which are also fallen asleep in Christ are PERISHED....For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man on his own order: Christ the firstfruits: AFTERWARDS they that are Christ's AT HIS COMING. 1 Cor. 15: 13-23

Our HOPE is Christ, who has been raised from the dead and is now in heaven, waiting to be sent back to this earth when He shall RESURRECT the DEAD. 1 Thes.4: 16

Colossians 1:5 does NOT say, "Our hope is to get to heaven." Or "The church's hope is to be with Christ in heaven." It says: our HOPE is kept in heaven. That hope is Christ and His Return. Philippians 3:20 Christian believers are citizens of heaven and from heaven we can expect our Deliverer to come: The Lord Jesus Christ.

Notice! This Kingdom is in heaven that we are citizens of. If we be Christ's, we belong to His family. We are brothers of His, we are part of God's family, His children, and so of His government, kingdom, which is at present in heaven. Not that we are in heaven, for the reality is: we live on earth, but the Kingdom, where our citizenship is; that we now belong to, is in heaven.

NO MAN HAS EVER GONE TO HEAVEN
Here is a plain and easy to understand verse: And NO MAN has ASCENDED up to heaven, except for He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. John 3:13 BELIEVE what Christ said, He should know. He was in heaven with the Father from the beginning, and He did not see any human ever come from earth up to heaven. It’s indisputable, Enoch could not have gone to the third heaven, neither did Moses, nor did Elijah. All humans who have ever lived, or will live, up to the Return of Jesus and are not still alive when Jesus comes, will sleep in death. They will be in the grave, and the martyrs, those killed for their faith, Revelation 20:4, wait to hear the voice of the Son of man, to rise from the dead in a resurrection. Then, for a thousand years they shall reign with Christ on His throne over this earth, as they establish the Kingdom of God on earth.

At the end of the thousand years comes the new heavens and the new earth. Then the heavenly Jerusalem together with God the Father will come from heaven to this new earth, which will then become the dwelling place of the throne of the universe for all Eternity.

What we can say is that we, the children of God, will one day be in heaven.....yes.....when heaven comes to earth. Revelation 21:1-4 But what we cannot say is that any human will be taken up to heaven to avoid the wrath to come. The Lord promises protection to all these who place their trust in Him and this may be a profound spiritual experience. Nahum 1:1-8, Isaiah 43:2, + Ref: Keith Hunt

You still haven't said by the verses I provided did not say rapture. They sure do not say relocation on this earth.

Heaven never comes to earth. You can't provide one single verse that says.New Jerusalem is not heaven. In heaven but not heaven.
 

Stranger

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Keraz

Oh please, you now want to present yourself as some sort of martyr for being alone against all those who hold to the Rapture. Cease with the drama.

Your problem is I have given you Scripture which you refuse to answer. I have asked you questions which you have refused to answer. See post #(173).

You have attempted to redefine the rapture with the use of (Acts 8:39). What a lame effort that was. If anything set the precedent for the rapture, it was God taking Enoch and Elijah alive to be with Him.

Both your theology concerning the Rapture and that believers don't go to Heaven is riddled with holes. Therefore allegory must come into play. You must make Scripture say something it is not saying. And who is the great interpreter of your allegory...you of course.

So, what of (Rev. 3:10)? You and all others, who constantly mock the Rapture claiming those who believe it are just looking for a way out of trouble, have no answer for (Rev. 3:10). For it is a promise of God. "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

Not only is your view of the Rapture, and that believers don't go to Heaven, wrong. But your whole method of interpreting the Bible, through allegory, is shown to be wrong.

So, go back to post #(173), and answer my questions.

Stranger
 

Keraz

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Not only is your view of the Rapture, and that believers don't go to Heaven, wrong. But your whole method of interpreting the Bible, through allegory, is shown to be wrong.
It is those who think that God will take them to heaven before any trials or testing, who are wrong and who use allegory, inference and plain guesswork to make out a 'rapture'.
Where all the faithful Christians will go, is told to us in Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Zechariah 8:1-8, +
 

Stranger

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It is those who think that God will take them to heaven before any trials or testing, who are wrong and who use allegory, inference and plain guesswork to make out a 'rapture'.
Where all the faithful Christians will go, is told to us in Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Zechariah 8:1-8, +

Explain (Rev. 3:10).

I don't interpret (1 Thess. 4:16-17) allegorically. I interpret it literally. We shall be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Neither do I interpret (John 14:2-3) allegorically. I interpret it literally. Jesus is going to His Fathers house and preparing a place for the Christians there.

So, where did Jesus go? Where is our place? Is God in Heaven in your theology? So many questions you continue to avoid.

Concerning your useage of Old Testament verses, what a hypocrite you are. You accuse me of false teaching for using Old Testatment verses and here you go and use them. Of course you should use them, but it is you who brought accusation against me for using them.

Concerning (Is. 35:1-10), all one has to do is follow who is being spoken to. So, let's go back a bit. (Is. 26:1) "In that day shall this song be sung in the land of Judah;..." Let's continue with (Is. 27:6) "He shall cause them that come of Jacob to take root: Israel shall blossom and bud, and fill the face of the world with fruit." Continue on with (Is. 28:1) "Woe to the drunkards of Ephraim...." (28:14) "Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem." Continue on with (Is. 29:1) "Woe to Ariel, to Ariel, the city where David dwelt!" Ariel is another name for Jerusalem. (29:22) "Therefore thus saith the LORD, who redeemed Abraham, concerning the house of Jacob, Jacob shall not now be ashamed, neither shall his face now wax pale."

You can follow this pattern all the way to your verses in (Is. 35). Those being addressed are Israelites, of Jacob, of the twelve tribes. (Is. 35) is not speaking of Heaven. It is speaking of the Millennial Kingdom which Israel will inherit on the earth. It is not a picture of the Church inheriting their place in the earth. It is Israel. Heaven still exists, and that is the place of the Christian. The Christian will have access to the earth of course, but his place is where Jesus Christ has prepared for him. In Heaven.

The same is true with your other verses.

Your unwillingness to see the Church and Israel as two distinct bodies of believers has caused you great confusion, and this confusion you spread to others in the Church.

Stranger
 

Keraz

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Your unwillingness to see the Church and Israel as two distinct bodies of believers has caused you great confusion, and this confusion you spread to others in the Church.
There is only ONE people of God. We Christians are the Israelites of God, His Overcomers and the Victorious ones. Revelation 21:7
There is just two types of people on earth; those who believe in God and are born again in Jesus and all the rest, which includes the Jewish rejecters of Jesus.

The confusion that is spread by the proponents of the 'rapture to heaven' theory, is that the Jewish people are still God's chosen people and will eventually be Redeemed, while the Church sits in heaven. What unbelievable and unscriptural drivel!
Must I post the dozens of scriptures that prove who the chosen people are now? John 15:14-16, 1 Peter 2:9-10
The dozens of scriptures that prove the virtual demise of Judah? Romans 9:27
The proof that everyone will be tried and tested for their faith? 1 Peter 4:12
The Words of Jesus that say; No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from there. The idea of the Church going to live in heaven is never stated in the Bible, it is a lie that you and all who have fallen for it, should renounce NOW.
 

Stranger

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There is only ONE people of God. We Christians are the Israelites of God, His Overcomers and the Victorious ones. Revelation 21:7
There is just two types of people on earth; those who believe in God and are born again in Jesus and all the rest, which includes the Jewish rejecters of Jesus.

The confusion that is spread by the proponents of the 'rapture to heaven' theory, is that the Jewish people are still God's chosen people and will eventually be Redeemed, while the Church sits in heaven. What unbelievable and unscriptural drivel!
Must I post the dozens of scriptures that prove who the chosen people are now? John 15:14-16, 1 Peter 2:9-10
The dozens of scriptures that prove the virtual demise of Judah? Romans 9:27
The proof that everyone will be tried and tested for their faith? 1 Peter 4:12
The Words of Jesus that say; No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from there. The idea of the Church going to live in heaven is never stated in the Bible, it is a lie that you and all who have fallen for it, should renounce NOW.

Yes, I know what you are saying. You are a broken record. No matter what questions I ask, you ignore and just repeat your broken record. You present yourself as some master Bible teacher, yet you cannot answer my questions. Why? I will tell you why. Because you don't know what you are talking about. You have a pre-conceived belief and have some inter-net Scripture knowledge to support it, but you yourself have never made this knowledge yours. You have not done the 'study'. If you had done the study on your own you could field the questions I ask instead of ignoring them and relying on your broken record copy and paste.

Now all you are doing is repeating the same verses over again that I have explained and given Scripture and questions to you which you ignore.

Who do you think you are fooling? Do you think any would want to follow your patchwork theology when you cannot and will not answer questions to you?

Stranger
 

CoreIssue

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It is those who think that God will take them to heaven before any trials or testing, who are wrong and who use allegory, inference and plain guesswork to make out a 'rapture'.
Where all the faithful Christians will go, is told to us in Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Zechariah 8:1-8, +
Tereo Ek (Protect from) The hour of trial (tribulation period) is not allegory, it is very literal and plainly said.

There is only ONE people of God. We Christians are the Israelites of God, His Overcomers and the Victorious ones. Revelation 21:7
There is just two types of people on earth; those who believe in God and are born again in Jesus and all the rest, which includes the Jewish rejecters of Jesus.

The confusion that is spread by the proponents of the 'rapture to heaven' theory, is that the Jewish people are still God's chosen people and will eventually be Redeemed, while the Church sits in heaven. What unbelievable and unscriptural drivel!
Must I post the dozens of scriptures that prove who the chosen people are now? John 15:14-16, 1 Peter 2:9-10
The dozens of scriptures that prove the virtual demise of Judah? Romans 9:27
The proof that everyone will be tried and tested for their faith? 1 Peter 4:12
The Words of Jesus that say; No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from there. The idea of the Church going to live in heaven is never stated in the Bible, it is a lie that you and all who have fallen for it, should renounce NOW.

So you disagree with the Bible.


Ephesians 3:6 New International Version (NIV)
6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

Joint heirs, not one heir. Church and Israel.

Revelations 3:10 still denies you

And no one goes to heaven? Well. You still have a problem. Enoch and Elijah are still there and have been for centuries.
 

Keraz

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Here is the truth of the future for the faithful Christians:

The Church Triumphant – the Bride of Christ:
Will there be a time when the Church of the Living God, purchased by the blood of His Son, shines in purity and power before the Return of Jesus? The early Church had the right teaching and received the power of the Holy Spirit but sadly this did not last, as man inspired doctrines and traditions came in. But historians have been amazed at the ability of the true Christian Church to rejuvenate out of decay and to repeatedly revive throughout the ages. A holy remnant has always been in existence.

There are three main interpretations of the future fulfilment of the Church’s destiny:

First, that it all will finally happen in heaven, after a ’rapture’. - The idea of a pre-wrath rapture or any removal of people to heaven before the Return is not found in Bible teachings.

Second, it happens at the moment of the Return, as an instantaneous transformation of the character of His chosen people. - This is illogical and also un-scriptural.

Third, the Church is ready, prepared as His holy Bride, to greet their Lord Jesus with the shout of: ‘Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord!’ That there will be such a time on earth, when the Church: all who love the Lord and keep His commands, will ‘shine as jewels in His Land’, Zechariah 9:16, before the Return, is prophesied throughout the Old and New Testaments. With many of those OT prophesies, for example Isaiah 54, that tells of the restoration of His people, accepted and re-settled back into all of the cleared and cleansed holy Land, Isaiah 62:1-5, the assumption has been that Jesus would be present by then. But Isaiah 54:10 & 16 talks about the Destroyer coming and the earth shaking, also Isaiah 30:25-30 tells of the Lord’s judgement of the nations with a devouring fire, but on that Day, the Lord will protect and save His people. These and many other prophesies match with the Sixth Seal, the Day of the Lord’s wrath, an event set to happen years before the glorious Return.

In Ephesians 4:11-16, Paul lists the gifts that the ascended Christ gave to His Church. Their purpose is to build up the worldwide body until His Return. In the early chapters of Acts, we read how, at that time, the Church had a real sense of unity, ‘they were of one heart and soul’, and they received the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost. The true Church before His Return will again have a complete unity of doctrine and agreement of belief. John 17:21

Hebrews 8:10-12 In the latter days I shall set My Laws in their hearts, they will not need to say: ‘know the Lord’, for all will understand the true Way of life. I shall forgive all their sins.
They too, will be given the Holy Spirit at the great redemption and rejoining of Ezekiel 37. Joel 2:28-29, Ezekiel 36:26-27, Isaiah 59:21, Colossians 1:1-12

Ezekiel 11:17-20 I shall gather My people from among the nations, bring you from the places to which you have been dispersed and give the holy Land to you. You will abandon all your un-righteous practices when I give you a one-ness of heart and a new Spirit. You will be My people and I will be your God. Joel 2:29, Romans 9:24-26 [By the same way that He was to ancient Israel.]

In the last days, before the Return, His people will live as a ‘light to the nations’, Isaiah 49:8. From them the 144,000 will be selected soon after the Sixth Seal, Rev. 7:1-14, Rev 14:1-7, to go out in pairs to the nations, proclaiming the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Luke 10:1-11 is the precursor to this. Joel 2:27 states ’You will know I am present in the holy Land’….
The Shekinah Glory will return to the new Temple. Ezekiel 43:4

Revelation 7:9-14 describes the righteous Church, from all races, tribes and languages, gathered in the holy Land, but note in verse 3, there is a time period of calm, that is: the Seventh Seal of about a ½ hour in heaven= 20 +/- years on earth, before Jesus Returns.

During those few years, when the Lord’s holy Christian people of His faithful Church, will be living in all of the holy Land in peace and prosperity, the rest of the nations will recover from the devastation of the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath. They will form a One World Government, with ten divisions, each headed by a President. Soon, a charismatic leader will rise and take over as a dictator. He will go to Beulah and negotiate a seven year treaty of peace with them. This marks the commencement of the 70th ‘week’ of Daniels prophecy. At the mid-point, he will attack and conquer Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, and place his own image in the new Temple. Sadly, many will allow this, Isaiah 28:14-15, but the faithful will be resolute and will stand firm during this testing time. Daniel 11:30-34

Then, during the 3½ year Great Tribulation, those true faithful ones, the ‘woman’ of Rev. 12:13-16, will be flown to a place of safety on earth. After all these prophesied events, the Lord Jesus will Return for His ‘bride’ - the Holy people, all the faithful born again Christians; gathered ‘from the earths farthest places’ - Matthew 24:30-31,
Revelation 19:5-9,
and to commence His Millennial reign.
Ref: logostelos.info
 

Stranger

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Here is the truth of the future for the faithful Christians:

The Church Triumphant – the Bride of Christ:
Will there be a time when the Church of the Living God, purchased by the blood of His Son, shines in purity and power before the Return of Jesus? The early Church had the right teaching and received the power of the Holy Spirit but sadly this did not last, as man inspired doctrines and traditions came in. But historians have been amazed at the ability of the true Christian Church to rejuvenate out of decay and to repeatedly revive throughout the ages. A holy remnant has always been in existence.

There are three main interpretations of the future fulfilment of the Church’s destiny:

First, that it all will finally happen in heaven, after a ’rapture’. - The idea of a pre-wrath rapture or any removal of people to heaven before the Return is not found in Bible teachings.

Second, it happens at the moment of the Return, as an instantaneous transformation of the character of His chosen people. - This is illogical and also un-scriptural.

Third, the Church is ready, prepared as His holy Bride, to greet their Lord Jesus with the shout of: ‘Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord!’ That there will be such a time on earth, when the Church: all who love the Lord and keep His commands, will ‘shine as jewels in His Land’, Zechariah 9:16, before the Return, is prophesied throughout the Old and New Testaments. With many of those OT prophesies, for example Isaiah 54, that tells of the restoration of His people, accepted and re-settled back into all of the cleared and cleansed holy Land, Isaiah 62:1-5, the assumption has been that Jesus would be present by then. But Isaiah 54:10 & 16 talks about the Destroyer coming and the earth shaking, also Isaiah 30:25-30 tells of the Lord’s judgement of the nations with a devouring fire, but on that Day, the Lord will protect and save His people. These and many other prophesies match with the Sixth Seal, the Day of the Lord’s wrath, an event set to happen years before the glorious Return.

In Ephesians 4:11-16, Paul lists the gifts that the ascended Christ gave to His Church. Their purpose is to build up the worldwide body until His Return. In the early chapters of Acts, we read how, at that time, the Church had a real sense of unity, ‘they were of one heart and soul’, and they received the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost. The true Church before His Return will again have a complete unity of doctrine and agreement of belief. John 17:21

Hebrews 8:10-12 In the latter days I shall set My Laws in their hearts, they will not need to say: ‘know the Lord’, for all will understand the true Way of life. I shall forgive all their sins.
They too, will be given the Holy Spirit at the great redemption and rejoining of Ezekiel 37. Joel 2:28-29, Ezekiel 36:26-27, Isaiah 59:21, Colossians 1:1-12

Ezekiel 11:17-20 I shall gather My people from among the nations, bring you from the places to which you have been dispersed and give the holy Land to you. You will abandon all your un-righteous practices when I give you a one-ness of heart and a new Spirit. You will be My people and I will be your God. Joel 2:29, Romans 9:24-26 [By the same way that He was to ancient Israel.]

In the last days, before the Return, His people will live as a ‘light to the nations’, Isaiah 49:8. From them the 144,000 will be selected soon after the Sixth Seal, Rev. 7:1-14, Rev 14:1-7, to go out in pairs to the nations, proclaiming the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Luke 10:1-11 is the precursor to this. Joel 2:27 states ’You will know I am present in the holy Land’….
The Shekinah Glory will return to the new Temple. Ezekiel 43:4

Revelation 7:9-14 describes the righteous Church, from all races, tribes and languages, gathered in the holy Land, but note in verse 3, there is a time period of calm, that is: the Seventh Seal of about a ½ hour in heaven= 20 +/- years on earth, before Jesus Returns.

During those few years, when the Lord’s holy Christian people of His faithful Church, will be living in all of the holy Land in peace and prosperity, the rest of the nations will recover from the devastation of the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath. They will form a One World Government, with ten divisions, each headed by a President. Soon, a charismatic leader will rise and take over as a dictator. He will go to Beulah and negotiate a seven year treaty of peace with them. This marks the commencement of the 70th ‘week’ of Daniels prophecy. At the mid-point, he will attack and conquer Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, and place his own image in the new Temple. Sadly, many will allow this, Isaiah 28:14-15, but the faithful will be resolute and will stand firm during this testing time. Daniel 11:30-34

Then, during the 3½ year Great Tribulation, those true faithful ones, the ‘woman’ of Rev. 12:13-16, will be flown to a place of safety on earth. After all these prophesied events, the Lord Jesus will Return for His ‘bride’ - the Holy people, all the faithful born again Christians; gathered ‘from the earths farthest places’ - Matthew 24:30-31,
Revelation 19:5-9,
and to commence His Millennial reign.
Ref: logostelos.info

It is always much easier presenting your ready-to-go theological stamp. No one to contend with. No questions to have to answer. But once the debate begins, your ready made house of cards falls apart. You hope to restart again the conversation from this new post of yours as you failed in the last one. But all that will happen is the same thing. You will present your verses which I will show you misunderstand and misapply. I will ask you questions that you will ignore as they prove the shallowness of your position.

And eventually you will try and restart again as you will have failed here also.

Seems to me that you should consider that you may be mistaken in your belief. If you have to go that much trouble to hide that you don't know what you are talking about, why not consider it?

Stranger
 

Keraz

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It is always much easier presenting your ready-to-go theological stamp. No one to contend with. No questions to have to answer. But once the debate begins, your ready made house of cards falls apart. You hope to restart again the conversation from this new post of yours as you failed in the last one. But all that will happen is the same thing. You will present your verses which I will show you misunderstand and misapply. I will ask you questions that you will ignore as they prove the shallowness of your position.
My beliefs are soundly based on what all the prophets have told us. I set it all out in #192 above.
Let us see your beliefs set out in a sequence of events, fully supported by scriptures.
Seems to me that you should consider that you may be mistaken in your belief. If you have to go that much trouble to hide that you don't know what you are talking about, why not consider it?[/QUOTE
Your forte is to denigrate and point the finger at those who show how wrong the belief of a 'rapture to heaven' is.
I have considered most every other end times theory. They fail from lack of scriptural support and even from directly stated verses that refute them.
Like the Church going to heaven; a scriptural impossibility.
 

Stranger

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My beliefs are soundly based on what all the prophets have told us. I set it all out in #192 above.
Let us see your beliefs set out in a sequence of events, fully supported by scriptures.

Your forte is to denigrate and point the finger at those who show how wrong the belief of a 'rapture to heaven' is.
I have considered most every other end times theory. They fail from lack of scriptural support and even from directly stated verses that refute them.
Like the Church going to heaven; a scriptural impossibility.

If your beliefs were sound, you could answer my questions. But you cant'.

Yes, in your post #(192) you tried to restart the discussion and avoid the questions I have asked up the this point. I explained why this would not work. It will simply lead to a repetition of the same verses and my questions, which again, you will not answer. And eventually you will post another 'restart' page as you have with post #(192).

Not only is your theology flawed, but your tactics are terribly evident. Do yourself a favor. Do your own study instead of a copy and paste theology. What could possibly be wrong with that?

You haven't shown how wrong the Rapture is. That is the problem. You say it, but you have nothing to prove it. You say many things, but have nothing to prove it. Then when pressured to prove it, you balk...and put a restart page as with post #(192). You are so blind. And worse, you think your blindness is not seen. Believe me, it is evident.

Stranger
 

Keraz

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You haven't shown how wrong the Rapture is.
I merely go by the Words of Jesus:
John 3:13 No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from there.

John 7:34 Where I go, you cannot come....

John 8:21-23 Your home is on earth......

John 17:15 I do not pray for You to take My followers out of the world, but keep them from the evil one.

Revelation 2:25-26 Hold fast to what you have until I Return. To those who are Victorious, to those who persevere in doing My will until the end, I will give them authority over the nations. Revelation 5:9-10

And the idea of leaving the earth, is totally refuted by Revelation 13:10.....this calls for the endurance and faithfulness of God's people.
 

Naomi25

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Your first sentence is incorrect as you are trying to make (1Thess. 4:16-17) speak to the Second Coming and it does not. It speaks to the Rapture, 7 years earlier.

I think there is biblical proof to show that 1 Thess 4:16-17 is indeed, speaking of the second coming. Let me show you:

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. -1 Thessalonians 4:16–17

We see prominent events happening here: the Lords decends with a cry, the voice of an archangel, the sound of a trumpet. The dead in Christ rise. The living are caught up. Are there other verses that speak of such things, and can they help us pinpoint a timeframe?


But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. -1 Corinthians 15:23–26

Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

“Death is swallowed up in victory
.” -1 Corinthians 15:51–54



Basically, 1 Cor 15 is telling us the order of things. When Christ comes, the dead will rise first, then those of us alive will also be 'snatched away', and receive our new, imperishable bodies. This must happen at this time, because Paul goes on to tell us that the perishable bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom, which is what happens next. It happens because it is "the end", when Christ delivers this world, and all his enemies to the Father. He has reigned from heaven until he has put each and every enemy under his feet. The last enemy, which will be defeated upon his return, and when we receive our new bodies and effecively end death, is defeated upon Christ's return. At that moment, all enemies are done for, the end comes, this world is laid before the Fathers feet, and the Kingdom comes.

This is the natural reading, chronologically, of this text. To add a Rapture, or a gap, or even a Earthly Kingdom reign into it, is to not read it naturally.

There is every reason for believers to go to Heaven because that is where Jesus went to prepare a place for us. (John 14:2) Where did Christ go to prepare a place for the believer? Where is the Father's house?
True...but, but look at what Christ actually says:

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. -John 14:3

Most people concede that this 'place' Christ is preparing for us, is the New Jerusalem. And we know that New Jerusalem comes down, out of Heaven, to reside upon the Earth. Heaven is not it's true home.
And we can see from what Christ actually says, that he doesn't promise that he will take people to heaven. His promise is to come TO them, to them to himself. That we might be where HE his. And if he comes to us, then he is not in heaven anymore, is he?
This is not saying he cannot return to heaven, it is just pointing out that you cannot, from this verse, insist it means we are promised to be whisked away to heaven. Because that's not what it says.
Instead, we should look to other passages that tell us what Christ does when he comes back for us. Do we have any actual verses that say he returns to heaven with his people? Or does the weight of scripture compel us to think that when he returns, his attention is fully on the consumation of human history?

There is no problem with the Marriage Feast taking place on earth at the beginning of the Millennium. But the Marriage Feast is not the Wedding. The Wedding would have already taken place. Thus begs the question, who are those invited to the wedding feast? They are not the bride. Did you send your wife an invitation to her own wedding?

The guests are guests, not the bride.

Stranger
I am...unsure how the Marriage Super of the Lamb has anything to do with proving or disproving a Pre-trib Rapture. I think, what I would say on this point is: Ephesians 5:25–26 says: "Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word"

We cannot separate OT believers, from NT "Church" believers from "Tribulation Saints", in terms of salvation and their right to also be the "Bride of Christ". Because they too were saved by Christ, washed by him and sanctifyed by him. We are not saved by different means, and therefore we must all be the bride.
That said, the wedding must take place when all the Bride can attend, don't you think?
Then we see this right at the end of Revelation:

And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. -Revelation 21:2

Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.”
And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,
-Revelation 21:9-10


It seems there is a correlation between New Jerusalem and the Bride, presumably because both will be the dwelling place of God being with his people. And it seems that in the process of "coming down out of heaven" we see the Bride only prepared, but then also as "the wife".

I think we must look back at Jewish custom to make sense of this thing. We know that in Jewish custom, at least in Christ's day, that when a 'betrothal' happened, basically, the couple became married. It was a contracted deal. The 'wife' would go into seculsion while waiting for the husband to finish working on the 'add-on' section to his parents house where they would live. When the husbands father declared the 'house' finished, the groom would go and retrieve his wife (knowing, due to her seclusion, that she would not be pregnant to another, and therefore pure) and the massive celebration would commence.

I think we can say that when Christ died on the cross for his people, and triumphed over the grave, he won for himself a bride. When the end comes, and he returns in triumph over everything else, even death, and the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven...his dwelling place for us from the Father...then the celebration will commence!

But, I think, regardless, we can see that the fulfillment of these things happens when the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven, which even you must admit, is long past when the Rapture was to take place.
 

Stranger

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I merely go by the Words of Jesus:
John 3:13 No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from there.

John 7:34 Where I go, you cannot come....

John 8:21-23 Your home is on earth......

John 17:15 I do not pray for You to take My followers out of the world, but keep them from the evil one.

Revelation 2:25-26 Hold fast to what you have until I Return. To those who are Victorious, to those who persevere in doing My will until the end, I will give them authority over the nations. Revelation 5:9-10

And the idea of leaving the earth, is totally refuted by Revelation 13:10.....this calls for the endurance and faithfulness of God's people.

I have already addressed these. Your restart effort is lame.

Stranger
 

Keraz

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I have already addressed these
I have already proved that all are in the context of applying to everyone.
I post proofs that a 'rapture' is impossible and you can come up with nothing that proves a rapture.

Thanks Naomi, I don't feel quite so lonesome now!
I have one issue with your post #197. It is with 1 Corinthians 15:50-56.
This prophecy is all about what happens at the Great White Throne Judgement, after the Millennium. Only then is the Book of Life opened and immortality conferred upon those worthy to have their names Written in it. Malachi 3:16
 

Stranger

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I have already proved that all are in the context of applying to everyone.
I post proofs that a 'rapture' is impossible and you can come up with nothing that proves a rapture.

Thanks Naomi, I don't feel quite so lonesome now!
I have one issue with your post #197. It is with 1 Corinthians 15:50-56.
This prophecy is all about what happens at the Great White Throne Judgement, after the Millennium. Only then is the Book of Life opened and immortality conferred upon those worthy to have their names Written in it. Malachi 3:16

You haven't proved anything except that you ignore Scriptures I give you and fail to answer the questions I have asked. As I said, I have already answered your questions and verses. And, I in turn ask you questions that you fail to answer.

Poor you, are you so mistreated and lonely. Get your theology right and you will probably feel better.

Stranger