Rapture and End Time Beliefs

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Stranger

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I think there is biblical proof to show that 1 Thess 4:16-17 is indeed, speaking of the second coming. Let me show you:

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. -1 Thessalonians 4:16–17

We see prominent events happening here: the Lords decends with a cry, the voice of an archangel, the sound of a trumpet. The dead in Christ rise. The living are caught up. Are there other verses that speak of such things, and can they help us pinpoint a timeframe?


But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. -1 Corinthians 15:23–26

Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

“Death is swallowed up in victory
.” -1 Corinthians 15:51–54



Basically, 1 Cor 15 is telling us the order of things. When Christ comes, the dead will rise first, then those of us alive will also be 'snatched away', and receive our new, imperishable bodies. This must happen at this time, because Paul goes on to tell us that the perishable bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom, which is what happens next. It happens because it is "the end", when Christ delivers this world, and all his enemies to the Father. He has reigned from heaven until he has put each and every enemy under his feet. The last enemy, which will be defeated upon his return, and when we receive our new bodies and effecively end death, is defeated upon Christ's return. At that moment, all enemies are done for, the end comes, this world is laid before the Fathers feet, and the Kingdom comes.

This is the natural reading, chronologically, of this text. To add a Rapture, or a gap, or even a Earthly Kingdom reign into it, is to not read it naturally.


True...but, but look at what Christ actually says:

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. -John 14:3

Most people concede that this 'place' Christ is preparing for us, is the New Jerusalem. And we know that New Jerusalem comes down, out of Heaven, to reside upon the Earth. Heaven is not it's true home.
And we can see from what Christ actually says, that he doesn't promise that he will take people to heaven. His promise is to come TO them, to them to himself. That we might be where HE his. And if he comes to us, then he is not in heaven anymore, is he?
This is not saying he cannot return to heaven, it is just pointing out that you cannot, from this verse, insist it means we are promised to be whisked away to heaven. Because that's not what it says.
Instead, we should look to other passages that tell us what Christ does when he comes back for us. Do we have any actual verses that say he returns to heaven with his people? Or does the weight of scripture compel us to think that when he returns, his attention is fully on the consumation of human history?


I am...unsure how the Marriage Super of the Lamb has anything to do with proving or disproving a Pre-trib Rapture. I think, what I would say on this point is: Ephesians 5:25–26 says: "Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word"

We cannot separate OT believers, from NT "Church" believers from "Tribulation Saints", in terms of salvation and their right to also be the "Bride of Christ". Because they too were saved by Christ, washed by him and sanctifyed by him. We are not saved by different means, and therefore we must all be the bride.
That said, the wedding must take place when all the Bride can attend, don't you think?
Then we see this right at the end of Revelation:

And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. -Revelation 21:2

Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.”
And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,
-Revelation 21:9-10


It seems there is a correlation between New Jerusalem and the Bride, presumably because both will be the dwelling place of God being with his people. And it seems that in the process of "coming down out of heaven" we see the Bride only prepared, but then also as "the wife".

I think we must look back at Jewish custom to make sense of this thing. We know that in Jewish custom, at least in Christ's day, that when a 'betrothal' happened, basically, the couple became married. It was a contracted deal. The 'wife' would go into seculsion while waiting for the husband to finish working on the 'add-on' section to his parents house where they would live. When the husbands father declared the 'house' finished, the groom would go and retrieve his wife (knowing, due to her seclusion, that she would not be pregnant to another, and therefore pure) and the massive celebration would commence.

I think we can say that when Christ died on the cross for his people, and triumphed over the grave, he won for himself a bride. When the end comes, and he returns in triumph over everything else, even death, and the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven...his dwelling place for us from the Father...then the celebration will commence!

But, I think, regardless, we can see that the fulfillment of these things happens when the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven, which even you must admit, is long past when the Rapture was to take place.

Yes, (1 Thess 4:16-17) and (1 Cor. 15:51-54) speak of the same event. That event is the Rapture.

You say this happens because it is the 'end'. But it never says that is the end. For those who are raised at that time and who are raptured at that time, 'Death is swallowed up in victory'. (1 Cor. 15:54) Death is not yet defeated on the earth. Much death to go yet.

Concerning (John 14:1-3), where is God's house? Is God in Heaven? In verse (3), where did Christ go?

Yes, we can separate the Old Testament believers from New Testament beleivers. Not only that, not all Old Testament believers are part of Israel. From Adam to Abraham, there was no people designated Israel or the chosen. And in the New Testament, the saints during the Tribulation are not part of the Church. They are the Tribulation saints. Are all saved by the blood of Christ? Of course. But not all are of the same body of believers.

When you got married did you get a wedding invitation to the Supper. Did you get an invitation to your own wedding? The Supper and the wedding are not the same.

Understand that when God makes a new Heaven and new Earth, we are in the eternal state. And though we are in the eternal state, there is still a new earth, an earth. A distinct place that, even though all things are made new, still will exist. The New Jerusalem is not all believers. It is the City where dwells the Church.

Stranger
 
B

brakelite

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Most people concede that this 'place' Christ is preparing for us, is the New Jerusalem. And we know that New Jerusalem comes down, out of Heaven, to reside upon the Earth. Heaven is not it's true home.
And we can see from what Christ actually says, that he doesn't promise that he will take people to heaven. His promise is to come TO them, to them to himself. That we might be where HE his. And if he comes to us, then he is not in heaven anymore, is he?
This is not saying he cannot return to heaven, it is just pointing out that you cannot, from this verse, insist it means we are promised to be whisked away to heaven. Because that's not what it says.
Instead, we should look to other passages that tell us what Christ does when he comes back for us. Do we have any actual verses that say he returns to heaven with his people? Or does the weight of scripture compel us to think that when he returns, his attention is fully on the consumation of human history?
I agree with most of what you present here, but for one or two important points. I don't see the New Jerusalem descending down to earth until the end of the millennium, not at the second coming. And notice that the only people raised at the second coming, are saints. Everyone else, that is the wicked, aren't raised until the end of the millennium. The wicked that are alive at the second coming are destroyed or killed by the brightness of HIs coming. Which leaves everyone either dead on earth, or alive with Christ...where He has prepared our rooms. Now if we are reigning with Christ throughout that 1000 years, then we are in the New Jerusalem when it comes down...that is when we witness the new heavens and the new earth being created.
In response to you are a couple of others who say we don't go to heaven (yet scripture clearly states we go to paradise) the following should be noted...
Paradise is mentioned 3 times in scripture:

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

2 Cor 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

The above verse says the tree of life is in the middle of paradise. Right?

Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, ...
...
Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

That says the tree of life is in the New Jerusalem. Right?

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

That refers to the New Jerusalem, which is the Father's house, which is in heaven. Right?

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

That says the New Jerusalem comes to earth from heaven. Right?
Conclusion: the Bible teaches that paradise and heaven are the exact same place!
 

Keraz

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You haven't proved anything except that you ignore Scriptures I give you and fail to answer the questions I have asked. As I said, I have already answered your questions and verses. And, I in turn ask you questions that you fail to answer.

Poor you, are you so mistreated and lonely. Get your theology right and you will probably feel better.

Stranger
This is sheer untrue rubbish.
I refute the scriptures you post; none of them prove a 'rapture to heaven'.
Your answers fail to prove that Jesus wasn't referring to everyone in His 5 statements of how it is impossible for humans to go to heaven.
Lonely? I am not lonely in my beliefs. People who read and properly understand the future God has planned for us, throw the 'rapture' theory into the bin where it belongs.
 

Keraz

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Yes, (1 Thess 4:16-17) and (1 Cor. 15:51-54) speak of the same event. That event is the Rapture.
This statement is patently wrong.
! Thess 4:15-17 is plainly prophesying about the Return of Jesus. After the Great Tribulation.
1 Cor 15:50-56 is what will happen at the Great White Throne Judgement. After the Millennium.

Neither of those prophesies say the Church goes to heaven. That idea is a fable that many have fallen for. 2 Timothy 4:3-4
 

Naomi25

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Yes, (1 Thess 4:16-17) and (1 Cor. 15:51-54) speak of the same event. That event is the Rapture.

You say this happens because it is the 'end'. But it never says that is the end. For those who are raised at that time and who are raptured at that time, 'Death is swallowed up in victory'. (1 Cor. 15:54) Death is not yet defeated on the earth. Much death to go yet.
I'm sorry, but the text simply does not support this. Let's look at it again, so it's not just my say so:

But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. -1 Corinthians 15:23–26

Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

“Death is swallowed up in victory.” -1 Corinthians 15:51–54


You say that this text doesn't say that it is "the end". But does it? In verse 24 it most certainly does. It says "then comes the end", putting it directly after our "being made alive" in Christ...our transformation as Christ was after his resurrection, he the firstfruits.
It doesn't mention a gap, between this transformation and 'the end'. Not at all. It's just "then at his coming us, then the end". Does this mean it is impossible for a gap to be there? No, with God all things are possible. But without it specifically written into the text, we cannot just assume it's there and insert it ourselves.

You also say that "Death is swallowed up", only because those Raptured have escaped death. But it doesn't say that either. What it says about death is that it is an enemy that has been, once and for all defeated by Christ, who then submits that enemy to his Father, along with all other enemies; every other power and authority that Christ has defeated. Does that sound correct, if then the Tribulation occurs, and evil men, Satan and death are still rampant upon the earth? Can all of those things be before the Father, defeated and completely done? Can we truly sing in heaven, "Where, O death, is your sting?"
No, of course not. The Saints in heaven are still, while death and sin are upon the earth, crying out, "How long, O Lord?" How long will they wait until he judges the wicked? Until he defeats death?
No...this text is quite specific. When death is finally defeated, we rejoice fully, because death is no more, completely done. And that happens when we receive our new bodies...at the same time. It is quite clear.

Concerning (John 14:1-3), where is God's house? Is God in Heaven? In verse (3), where did Christ go?

Well, first off, I think we must take "God's house" with a little pinch of salt. And I know that will cause everyone to hiss and shield their eyes from me, but actually stop and consider what I mean: Do you think Christ is promising us a single, measly little room each in a massive house, with everyone crammed into the same abode? Egh! Can you imagine how crowded that would be! The picture Jesus is giving us here, is the opposite of what Mary and Joseph saw...no room at the Inn. In heaven, Christ is preparing a place for us. He has space for us, we will be welcomed, and welcomed gladly. So much so, that thought and love have gone into the preparation of our arrival. This is what Jesus means when he says that he "prepares a place for us", and when he assures us that God's house is large enough for all of us.

But, to your questions. Sure, God dwells in heaven. Technically, he dwells everywhere, but the bible particularly classifies his home and his 'presence' as heaven. And sure, that's where Christ went after he ascended.
But you can't just leave it there, because Jesus doesn't. He doesn't go on to say, "and one day, I'll bring you to where I am going."
No, He says "I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also."
He goes (to heaven)....he comes again (to earth) and takes us to himself (we see in so many other verses the phrases about "gathering us to himself")...that where he is (remember, at this point he has 'come again' to earth) we may be also.

All the passage demands is that Christ will come again FOR us, so that we may be WITH him, where he is. It does not say he will return to heaven with us. That is reading into the text.

Yes, we can separate the Old Testament believers from New Testament beleivers. Not only that, not all Old Testament believers are part of Israel. From Adam to Abraham, there was no people designated Israel or the chosen. And in the New Testament, the saints during the Tribulation are not part of the Church. They are the Tribulation saints. Are all saved by the blood of Christ? Of course. But not all are of the same body of believers.
I don't care how you want to categorize them. My point was simple: if you say that there is only one way under the sun that man can be saved: by the blood of Christ, then we all must be the bride of Christ...all saved by him, bought by him. If we are to understand properly what his sacrifice did for those whom he purchased with it, then we must understand that we all share in it's graces...that being, that we are fully his; his bride, washed clean and made ready.
You cannot say, "well sure, but those ones, those ones over there, they were saved by his blood too, but they don't get their white garments; they don't get to be washed clean of their sins, because his sacrifice meant something different for them, than it did for us.'

When you got married did you get a wedding invitation to the Supper. Did you get an invitation to your own wedding? The Supper and the wedding are not the same.
See, I'm still not getting the relevance you're trying to make here. Firstly, I may not have received an invite, but you can bet I went, I was sort of the star attraction. But when we are talking about the marriage supper of the Lamb, things get a little different, don't they. First, we don't expect any 'guests', do we? Pretty much everyone "attending" is going to BE the Bride. We are not going to have damned wedding guests, forced to sit around the edges of our feast, pretending merriment, all the while knowing they were on their way to hell (or going back there when the marriage was done). And I doubt we'd enjoy that either. The only legitimate guests there, I would say, would be angelic ones. Every believer present, will be the Bride. Those randsomed by Christ.

Understand that when God makes a new Heaven and new Earth, we are in the eternal state. And though we are in the eternal state, there is still a new earth, an earth. A distinct place that, even though all things are made new, still will exist. The New Jerusalem is not all believers. It is the City where dwells the Church.

Stranger
I'm not saying there won't be an actual city. And I know full well that we'll be living on an actual, physical earth. But as far as the city being symbolically referenced as the Bride, take that up with Revelation, not me, as it clearly does it:

And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. -Revelation 21:2

The New Jerusalem
Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, -Revelation 21:9–10
 
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farouk

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Yes, he does. But again, I don't think the information he gives allows us to pin-point with certainty the location or the identity of who this man will be. Speculation is always good, but we must always admit it IS speculation, and not become locked into it. Only the bible and the information it gives must be absolute.
We are not in any case 'looking for' antichrist; rather, we need to keep 'looking unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith' (Hebrews 12.2). :)
 
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Naomi25

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I agree with most of what you present here, but for one or two important points. I don't see the New Jerusalem descending down to earth until the end of the millennium, not at the second coming. And notice that the only people raised at the second coming, are saints. Everyone else, that is the wicked, aren't raised until the end of the millennium. The wicked that are alive at the second coming are destroyed or killed by the brightness of HIs coming. Which leaves everyone either dead on earth, or alive with Christ...where He has prepared our rooms.

Hi brakelite!
I agree that the New Jerusalem could very well come down at the end of the Millennium, but I suppose it then depends when that Millennium is!
As for whether the wicked are raised separately from the just....I'm not sure, don't these verses suggest that perhaps they are raised together?

But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. -Daniel 12:1b–2

Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. -John 5:28–29



Now if we are reigning with Christ throughout that 1000 years, then we are in the New Jerusalem when it comes down...that is when we witness the new heavens and the new earth being created.
Again, it depends on when the Millennium is. What if it is now? We know that the Kingdom of God has already come, in part, at least. We already know that Christ is ruling and reigning from heaven now, seated on a throne. We already know that he "must reign until all his enemies have been defeated...and the last enemy is death". If death is defeated at his return, might that not suggest that the end of this, particular "reign" will end when he returns, and vanquishes death once and for all?


In response to you are a couple of others who say we don't go to heaven (yet scripture clearly states we go to paradise) the following should be noted...
Paradise is mentioned 3 times in scripture:

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

2 Cor 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

The above verse says the tree of life is in the middle of paradise. Right?

Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, ...
...
Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

That says the tree of life is in the New Jerusalem. Right?

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

That refers to the New Jerusalem, which is the Father's house, which is in heaven. Right?

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

That says the New Jerusalem comes to earth from heaven. Right?
Conclusion: the Bible teaches that paradise and heaven are the exact same place!

I agree. But we can see that when the bible talks of those going into "paradise" before the return of Christ, it is in the manner that Paul would call in their "heavenly bodies". Which, as Paul points out, is better than being naked. But it is still not the imperishable, spiritual body that is like Christ's, like we will have when he comes for us at the end.
And it is this "end" that will see the New Jerusalem come down out of heaven, and thus, God's dwelling place will be with man, in the garden, just as it was in the beginning.
 

Stranger

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This is sheer untrue rubbish.
I refute the scriptures you post; none of them prove a 'rapture to heaven'.
Your answers fail to prove that Jesus wasn't referring to everyone in His 5 statements of how it is impossible for humans to go to heaven.
Lonely? I am not lonely in my beliefs. People who read and properly understand the future God has planned for us, throw the 'rapture' theory into the bin where it belongs.

You're the one whining about being lonely. Were you lying?

Stranger
 

Stranger

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This statement is patently wrong.
! Thess 4:15-17 is plainly prophesying about the Return of Jesus. After the Great Tribulation.
1 Cor 15:50-56 is what will happen at the Great White Throne Judgement. After the Millennium.

Neither of those prophesies say the Church goes to heaven. That idea is a fable that many have fallen for. 2 Timothy 4:3-4

No it's not. It is right.

No, (1 Thess. 4:15-17) is plainly prophesying about the Rapture of the Church. Which occurs just prior to the Tribulation.

No, (1 Cor. 15:50-56) is plainly speaking of the same event, the Rapture. This occurs prior to the Tribulation, which occurs prior to the Millennium, which at the end of, the Great White Throne Judgement occurs.

The Rapture takes the Church into Heaven. (2 Tim. 4:3-4) is a good verse. But it does not apply to what I have said.

Stranger
 

Stranger

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I'm sorry, but the text simply does not support this. Let's look at it again, so it's not just my say so:

But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. -1 Corinthians 15:23–26

Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

“Death is swallowed up in victory.” -1 Corinthians 15:51–54


You say that this text doesn't say that it is "the end". But does it? In verse 24 it most certainly does. It says "then comes the end", putting it directly after our "being made alive" in Christ...our transformation as Christ was after his resurrection, he the firstfruits.
It doesn't mention a gap, between this transformation and 'the end'. Not at all. It's just "then at his coming us, then the end". Does this mean it is impossible for a gap to be there? No, with God all things are possible. But without it specifically written into the text, we cannot just assume it's there and insert it ourselves.

You also say that "Death is swallowed up", only because those Raptured have escaped death. But it doesn't say that either. What it says about death is that it is an enemy that has been, once and for all defeated by Christ, who then submits that enemy to his Father, along with all other enemies; every other power and authority that Christ has defeated. Does that sound correct, if then the Tribulation occurs, and evil men, Satan and death are still rampant upon the earth? Can all of those things be before the Father, defeated and completely done? Can we truly sing in heaven, "Where, O death, is your sting?"
No, of course not. The Saints in heaven are still, while death and sin are upon the earth, crying out, "How long, O Lord?" How long will they wait until he judges the wicked? Until he defeats death?
No...this text is quite specific. When death is finally defeated, we rejoice fully, because death is no more, completely done. And that happens when we receive our new bodies...at the same time. It is quite clear.



Well, first off, I think we must take "God's house" with a little pinch of salt. And I know that will cause everyone to hiss and shield their eyes from me, but actually stop and consider what I mean: Do you think Christ is promising us a single, measly little room each in a massive house, with everyone crammed into the same abode? Egh! Can you imagine how crowded that would be! The picture Jesus is giving us here, is the opposite of what Mary and Joseph saw...no room at the Inn. In heaven, Christ is preparing a place for us. He has space for us, we will be welcomed, and welcomed gladly. So much so, that thought and love have gone into the preparation of our arrival. This is what Jesus means when he says that he "prepares a place for us", and when he assures us that God's house is large enough for all of us.

But, to your questions. Sure, God dwells in heaven. Technically, he dwells everywhere, but the bible particularly classifies his home and his 'presence' as heaven. And sure, that's where Christ went after he ascended.
But you can't just leave it there, because Jesus doesn't. He doesn't go on to say, "and one day, I'll bring you to where I am going."
No, He says "I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also."
He goes (to heaven)....he comes again (to earth) and takes us to himself (we see in so many other verses the phrases about "gathering us to himself")...that where he is (remember, at this point he has 'come again' to earth) we may be also.

All the passage demands is that Christ will come again FOR us, so that we may be WITH him, where he is. It does not say he will return to heaven with us. That is reading into the text.


I don't care how you want to categorize them. My point was simple: if you say that there is only one way under the sun that man can be saved: by the blood of Christ, then we all must be the bride of Christ...all saved by him, bought by him. If we are to understand properly what his sacrifice did for those whom he purchased with it, then we must understand that we all share in it's graces...that being, that we are fully his; his bride, washed clean and made ready.
You cannot say, "well sure, but those ones, those ones over there, they were saved by his blood too, but they don't get their white garments; they don't get to be washed clean of their sins, because his sacrifice meant something different for them, than it did for us.'


See, I'm still not getting the relevance you're trying to make here. Firstly, I may not have received an invite, but you can bet I went, I was sort of the star attraction. But when we are talking about the marriage supper of the Lamb, things get a little different, don't they. First, we don't expect any 'guests', do we? Pretty much everyone "attending" is going to BE the Bride. We are not going to have damned wedding guests, forced to sit around the edges of our feast, pretending merriment, all the while knowing they were on their way to hell (or going back there when the marriage was done). And I doubt we'd enjoy that either. The only legitimate guests there, I would say, would be angelic ones. Every believer present, will be the Bride. Those randsomed by Christ.


I'm not saying there won't be an actual city. And I know full well that we'll be living on an actual, physical earth. But as far as the city being symbolically referenced as the Bride, take that up with Revelation, not me, as it clearly does it:

And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. -Revelation 21:2

The New Jerusalem
Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, -Revelation 21:9–10

Don't be sorry. I am not sorry.

(1 Cor. 15:23-26) is not addressing the Rapture.

Actually it does say that. (1 Cor. 15:51-53) is addressing the Rapture. As a result, (1 Cor. 15:54) , Death is swallowed up in victory.

Oh, well, I take what you say with a little pinch of salt. Which means I don't make much of what you say. And (John 14:1-3) says it is in His Fathers house that Christ makes a place for us. That is our place.

Your point is wrong. Though all are saved by the blood of Christ does not mean they are all of the same body. What do you base this on?

I understand, you don't get it.

The New Jerusalem is the Bride. Where do you think I said it is not?

Stranger
 

Keraz

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To Stranger and all who hold to the belief of a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church:
Have you really considered any alternative to a 'rapture'? Because there are viable and scriptural end times scenarios where God's people remain on earth.
You need to know that many respected Bible scholars cast doubts on the rapture, if not actively refute that theory.

So the attitude of some 'rapture to heaven' believers, of them holding the moral high ground, is unwarranted and in some cases, amounts to a very judgmental and sometimes rude response to their fellow Christians.
This is a serious indictment against all who have strong beliefs but fail to really study or comprehend any alternatives.

Is it really God's Plan to remove His people, to avoid the tough times prophesied to come?
Why should He do that for this generation, when all the previous generations have faced persecutions?
'Rapture' believers say it is a secret thing, therefore its not clearly stated in the Bible. Not in the Bible? So it is in fact; unbiblical and comes under the category of mankinds teachings. 2 Timothy 4:3-4

Jesus warned us against being deceived; Paul said; that ravening wolves would deceive the flock, even from among the Christians, some will distort the truth to get people to follow them. Acts 20:29-30
So, plainly, some are deceived and even if they may be in a majority, that does not mean their beliefs are true.
 
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farouk

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To Stranger and all who hold to the belief of a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church:
Have you really considered any alternative to a 'rapture'? Because there are viable and scriptural end times scenarios, where God's people remain on earth.
You need to know that many respected Bible scholars cast doubts on the rapture, if not actively refute that theory.

So the attitude of some 'rapture to heaven' believers, of them holding the moral high ground, is unwarranted and in some cases, amounts to a very judgmental and sometimes rude response to their fellow Christians.
This is a serious indictment against all who have strong beliefs, but fail to really study or comprehend any alternatives.

Is it really God's Plan to remove His people, to avoid the tough times prophesied to come?
Why should He do that for this generation, when all the previous generations have faced persecutions?
'Rapture' believers say it is a secret thing, therefore its not clearly stated in the Bible. Not in the Bible? So it is in fact; unbiblical and comes under the category of mans teachings. 2 Timothy 4:3-4

Jesus warned us against being deceived; Paul said; that ravening wolves would deceive the flock, even from among the Christians men will distort the truth to get people to follow them. Acts 20:29-30
So, plainly; some are deceived and even if they may be in a majority, that does not mean their beliefs are true.
The church is not going to pass through the great tribulation (Matthew 24), so why would it remain on earth?
 

Keraz

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The church is not going to pass through the great tribulation (Matthew 24), so why would it remain on earth?
Please provide actual verses to support you opinion.
I will give two that say that God's holy people are present when the GT starts; Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7.
Then, as Revelation 12:6-17 says; some will be taken to a place of safety and the rest must remain under persecution.
 

Stranger

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To Stranger and all who hold to the belief of a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church:
Have you really considered any alternative to a 'rapture'? Because there are viable and scriptural end times scenarios where God's people remain on earth.
You need to know that many respected Bible scholars cast doubts on the rapture, if not actively refute that theory.

So the attitude of some 'rapture to heaven' believers, of them holding the moral high ground, is unwarranted and in some cases, amounts to a very judgmental and sometimes rude response to their fellow Christians.
This is a serious indictment against all who have strong beliefs but fail to really study or comprehend any alternatives.

Is it really God's Plan to remove His people, to avoid the tough times prophesied to come?
Why should He do that for this generation, when all the previous generations have faced persecutions?
'Rapture' believers say it is a secret thing, therefore its not clearly stated in the Bible. Not in the Bible? So it is in fact; unbiblical and comes under the category of mankinds teachings. 2 Timothy 4:3-4

Jesus warned us against being deceived; Paul said; that ravening wolves would deceive the flock, even from among the Christians, some will distort the truth to get people to follow them. Acts 20:29-30
So, plainly, some are deceived and even if they may be in a majority, that does not mean their beliefs are true.

Why do you want to project this lie? Those who hold to the Rapture are not saying they are holding any moral ground. This is the lie presented by you and others against those who believe the Rapture.

I don't believe you have even studied your own view against the Rapture. I believe you are just giving what others have said and what you believe. As I have said before, if you had studied it yourself, you would not ignore my questions. You have no answer for some of my questions because they plainly go against your view.

Just because God is going to keep the Church from the Tribulation period, doesn't place the believers on a high moral ground. It just means that is God's decision and part of His plan. (Rev. 3:10) "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience,I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." Kept from the Tribulation and taken off the earth. No attitude here. Just believing what God has said.

I always question those who result to claiming those opposed to them are deceivers. Just because I hold to the Rapture, and that the Church and Israel are not the same, and that believers go to Heaven, doesn't make me a deceiver. It does bring into question your views which are contrary to these.

And, since when are those who hold to the Rapture in the majority? It seems common in our day for believers to reject dispensationalism, and the Rapture, and premillennialism.

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farouk

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Please provide actual verses to support you opinion.
I will give two that say that God's holy people are present when the GT starts; Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7.
Then, as Revelation 12:6-17 says; some will be taken to a place of safety and the rest must remain under persecution.
The church and Israel are distinct. The wording of Matthew 24 re. the great tribulation clearly indicates a unique event. "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." (verse 21).

It is a different tribulation idea from the one in John 16.

The church is not even mentioned in Daniel, or anywhere in the Old Testament.
 

Keraz

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(Rev. 3:10) "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience,I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." Kept from the Tribulation and taken off the earth. No attitude here. Just believing what God has said.
'Taken off the earth'? NOT what God has said at all.
Without going into the meanings of the Greek word 'terio ek', translated as 'keep', we know from many other prophesies that the Lord will protect His own during His terrible Day of wrath. Never does the Bible say the Church will be removed to heaven.
Just because I hold to the Rapture, and that the Church and Israel are not the same, and that believers go to Heaven, doesn't make me a deceiver.
It means that you are deceived, as those theories are unbiblical. And if you promote them, you are a deceiver.
The church is not even mentioned in Daniel, or anywhere in the Old Testament.
The Church are the Lord's faithful holy people. They are found throughout the Bible.
They have all been tried and tested before, why should God change His mind and remove the last generation?
 
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farouk

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'Taken off the earth'? NOT what God has said at all.
Without going into the meanings of the Greek word 'terio ek', translated as 'keep', we know from many other prophesies that the Lord will protect His own during His terrible Day of wrath. Never does the Bible say the Church will be removed to heaven.

It means that you are deceived, as those theories are unbiblical. And if you promote them, you are a deceiver.

The Church are the Lord's faithful holy people. They are found throughout the Bible.
They have all been tried and tested before, why should God change His mind and remove the last generation?
Look up the meaning of 'caught up' - raptured - in 1 Thessalonians 4.
 

Keraz

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since when are those who hold to the Rapture in the majority? It seems common in our day for believers to reject dispensationalism, and the Rapture, and premillennialism.
I'm pleased to hear it. Why do you believe those things?
But for many, to reject the 'rapture' is to lose your friends and be evicted from your church. Not easy, as Jesus said: the Way is hard and few go along it.
Remember, we will all stand before Jesus in Judgement. Will He ask why we believed something He specifically taught against?
 
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Keraz

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Look up the meaning of 'caught up' - raptured - in 1 Thessalonians 4.
'harparzo' means to take away, remove, sometimes forcibly.
What it doesn't mean is; going to live in heaven.

It is clear the 1 Thess 4:15-17 refers to the Return of Jesus to earth for His Millennium reign.
His people are gathered by the angels, Matthew 24:30-31, maybe 'snatched up' and transported to where Jesus is. Initially in the clouds, then in Jerusalem.
 

farouk

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'harparzo' means to take away, remove, sometimes forcibly.
What it doesn't mean, is; going to live in heaven.

It is clear the 1 Thess 4:15-17 refers to the Return of Jesus to earth for His Millennium reign.
His people are gathered by the angels, Matthew 24:30-31, maybe 'snatched up' and transported to where Jesus is. Initially in the clouds, then in Jerusalem.
Clear to you? not to dispensationalists like me.