I think there is biblical proof to show that 1 Thess 4:16-17 is indeed, speaking of the second coming. Let me show you:
For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. -1 Thessalonians 4:16–17
We see prominent events happening here: the Lords decends with a cry, the voice of an archangel, the sound of a trumpet. The dead in Christ rise. The living are caught up. Are there other verses that speak of such things, and can they help us pinpoint a timeframe?
But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. -1 Corinthians 15:23–26
Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.” -1 Corinthians 15:51–54
Basically, 1 Cor 15 is telling us the order of things. When Christ comes, the dead will rise first, then those of us alive will also be 'snatched away', and receive our new, imperishable bodies. This must happen at this time, because Paul goes on to tell us that the perishable bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom, which is what happens next. It happens because it is "the end", when Christ delivers this world, and all his enemies to the Father. He has reigned from heaven until he has put each and every enemy under his feet. The last enemy, which will be defeated upon his return, and when we receive our new bodies and effecively end death, is defeated upon Christ's return. At that moment, all enemies are done for, the end comes, this world is laid before the Fathers feet, and the Kingdom comes.
This is the natural reading, chronologically, of this text. To add a Rapture, or a gap, or even a Earthly Kingdom reign into it, is to not read it naturally.
True...but, but look at what Christ actually says:
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. -John 14:3
Most people concede that this 'place' Christ is preparing for us, is the New Jerusalem. And we know that New Jerusalem comes down, out of Heaven, to reside upon the Earth. Heaven is not it's true home.
And we can see from what Christ actually says, that he doesn't promise that he will take people to heaven. His promise is to come TO them, to them to himself. That we might be where HE his. And if he comes to us, then he is not in heaven anymore, is he?
This is not saying he cannot return to heaven, it is just pointing out that you cannot, from this verse, insist it means we are promised to be whisked away to heaven. Because that's not what it says.
Instead, we should look to other passages that tell us what Christ does when he comes back for us. Do we have any actual verses that say he returns to heaven with his people? Or does the weight of scripture compel us to think that when he returns, his attention is fully on the consumation of human history?
I am...unsure how the Marriage Super of the Lamb has anything to do with proving or disproving a Pre-trib Rapture. I think, what I would say on this point is: Ephesians 5:25–26 says: "Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word"
We cannot separate OT believers, from NT "Church" believers from "Tribulation Saints", in terms of salvation and their right to also be the "Bride of Christ". Because they too were saved by Christ, washed by him and sanctifyed by him. We are not saved by different means, and therefore we must all be the bride.
That said, the wedding must take place when all the Bride can attend, don't you think?
Then we see this right at the end of Revelation:
And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. -Revelation 21:2
Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.”
And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,
-Revelation 21:9-10
It seems there is a correlation between New Jerusalem and the Bride, presumably because both will be the dwelling place of God being with his people. And it seems that in the process of "coming down out of heaven" we see the Bride only prepared, but then also as "the wife".
I think we must look back at Jewish custom to make sense of this thing. We know that in Jewish custom, at least in Christ's day, that when a 'betrothal' happened, basically, the couple became married. It was a contracted deal. The 'wife' would go into seculsion while waiting for the husband to finish working on the 'add-on' section to his parents house where they would live. When the husbands father declared the 'house' finished, the groom would go and retrieve his wife (knowing, due to her seclusion, that she would not be pregnant to another, and therefore pure) and the massive celebration would commence.
I think we can say that when Christ died on the cross for his people, and triumphed over the grave, he won for himself a bride. When the end comes, and he returns in triumph over everything else, even death, and the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven...his dwelling place for us from the Father...then the celebration will commence!
But, I think, regardless, we can see that the fulfillment of these things happens when the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven, which even you must admit, is long past when the Rapture was to take place.
Yes, (1 Thess 4:16-17) and (1 Cor. 15:51-54) speak of the same event. That event is the Rapture.
You say this happens because it is the 'end'. But it never says that is the end. For those who are raised at that time and who are raptured at that time, 'Death is swallowed up in victory'. (1 Cor. 15:54) Death is not yet defeated on the earth. Much death to go yet.
Concerning (John 14:1-3), where is God's house? Is God in Heaven? In verse (3), where did Christ go?
Yes, we can separate the Old Testament believers from New Testament beleivers. Not only that, not all Old Testament believers are part of Israel. From Adam to Abraham, there was no people designated Israel or the chosen. And in the New Testament, the saints during the Tribulation are not part of the Church. They are the Tribulation saints. Are all saved by the blood of Christ? Of course. But not all are of the same body of believers.
When you got married did you get a wedding invitation to the Supper. Did you get an invitation to your own wedding? The Supper and the wedding are not the same.
Understand that when God makes a new Heaven and new Earth, we are in the eternal state. And though we are in the eternal state, there is still a new earth, an earth. A distinct place that, even though all things are made new, still will exist. The New Jerusalem is not all believers. It is the City where dwells the Church.
Stranger