Rapture and End Time Beliefs

[CoreIssue]

I've seen it all before and I consider it all a fabricated mess. Where is there a gathering of Jews?

And I've heard all your claims before as well.

Jerusalem.

 

[Stranger]

I read it more than once. What does Enoch have to do with Christians being removed from tribulation? Jesus said the gathering happens AFTER tribulation and I believe him.

You gave examples of God bringing others through a trial. I gave you an example of God taking one from a trial. In fact, the flood is a perfect example of God delivering His people. Enoch is raptured out, to avoid the flood. Methuselah dies the year of the flood. Noah and his family are brought through the flood. God was protecting His people using different methods. Just like He will during the Tribulation.

(Rev. 3:10) "...I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." This is God promising to rapture the Church out of the earth to avoid the Tribulation.

Now, after each message to the 7 churches, Christ always said, "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches". See (Rev. 2:7, 2:11, 2:17, 2:29, 3:6, 3:13, 3:22) But, once the Tribulation starts and the beast is making war against those saints alive now during the Tribulation, note the difference in the same phrase. (Rev. 13:7-9) "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints...If any man have an ear, let him hear." Note that "what the Spirit saith unto the churches" is omitted.

Why is it omitted? Because the Church has been removed from the earth. Raptured out into Heaven. Note also how this is shown immediately after the messages are given to the 7 churches. (Rev. 4:1) "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter"

If you believe the Church goes through the Tribulation, that is fine. I don't.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

The only thing you've heard from post tribbers is the fabricated mess pre-trib is. It only takes one small passage to prove WHEN the rapture happens. But pre-tribbers have perverted that too!

Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days...And THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven….and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

If the Lord returns just for a rapture, that isn't a return in POWER AND GREAT GLORY!

You're addressing the Second Coming here. Not the Rapture. Two different events taking place at different times.

Stranger

 

[Dave L]

The universe explodes? God said, "let there be light." He must have also said, "let there be an explosion!"

“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” (2 Peter 3:10–13) (KJV 1900)

 

[Dave L]

So God is going to destroy the universe and then create a new heaven and a new earth? I think you need to acquire a sensible hermeneutic.

If Peter says so, who are you to question it?

 

[Dave L]

You don't even need a hermeneutic to understand the word HEAVEN! If the word KOSMOS were used it may indicate the universe. The word ouranos is used. That word is most often used to describe
the vaulted expanse of the sky with all things visible in it.... the aerial heavens or sky, the region where the clouds and the tempests gather, and where thunder and lightning are produced. VERY few times it is used to imply the universe. The word KOSMOS is used for that.

Just that Peter says it will soon pass away with a loud noise while the elements melt with a fervent heat.

 

[Trekson]

Just bringing this up, as I said I believe in a pre-wrath rapture but not a pre-trib one. Here's an interesting passage from John17:14-17

"I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."

 

[farouk]

I became a pretribber after years of Bible study, not because somebody else told me to be.

After 57 years of study I am thoroughly convinced pretrib is the truth.

From the first seal on their is zero mention of the church on earth or Christian.

I don't see the church going through the Great Tribulation (Matthew 24), as opposed to the general tribulation principle (John 16).

 

[farouk]

In Mathew 24 Jesus says the church will go through the great tribulation! I don't get it???

It's not the church in Matthew 24.

 

[CoreIssue]

Just that Peter says it will soon pass away with a loud noise while the elements melt with a fervent heat.

The word meanings, etc, literally says that the atomic level bonds holding everything together will literally be released in the atoms will fly apart.

Nuclear fission.

 

[CoreIssue]

In Mathew 24 Jesus says the church will go through the great tribulation! I don't get it???

You don't get it because it does not say the church will go through the tribulation.

Plus, the great tribulation is the second three and half years of the seven year tribulation.

 

[CoreIssue]

Just bringing this up, as I said I believe in a pre-wrath rapture but not a pre-trib one. Here's an interesting passage from John17:14-17

"I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."

Has nothing to do with the rapture.

Pre-wrath? There are still some people that believe in that one?

 

[CoreIssue]

If it's not the church then who is it? If you say Jews you are mistaken, they are not the focus of Jesus' reply. The chapter begins with a three part question which Jesus takes the entire chapter to answer.

1. When shall these things be. (Not on stone standing upon one another).
2. What shall be the sign of thy return.
3. What shall be the sign of the consummation of the age.

All the Gospels were written to Israel. Christ said he did not come to the Gentiles.

 

[CoreIssue]

It doesn't?

'Elect' always refers to Christians in the New Testament. NOT ONCE DOES IT IMPLY JEWS! The word elect is the same word as 'chosen' and in every verse I looked at in the NT it always referred to Christians, the Messiah, and a few times to angels. It's the same word as chosen in the NT.

The word elect is 'eklektos' which means...
1) picked out, chosen
a) chosen by
God,
1) to obtain salvation through Christ
a)
Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God
2) the Messiah in called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable
3) choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians

The word elect, chosen-'eklektos,' is used in the following verses in the NT where it always refers to Christians... whether Jew or gentile!

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Check also...
Matthew 20:16, John 13:18, 15:16, Acts 15:22, 15:25, Romans 8:33, 16:13, 1 Corinthians 1:27-28, Ephesians 1:4, Colossians 3:12, James 2:5, 2 Timothy 2:10, Titus 1:1, 1 Peter 1:2, 2:9, 5:13, Revelation 17:14.

If God wanted the elect of Mathew 24 to mean Jews, He would have used a different Greek word. Probably this one...
1445. Hebraios heb-rah'-yos from
1443; a Hebræan (i.e. Hebrew) or Jew:--Hebrew.

The NT Greek text shows that 'elect' denotes CHRISTIANS and there's no getting around it! Pre-tribbers refuse to see the extensive fabrication process of pretribulationism?

Elect does not always refer to church.

 

[CoreIssue]

In the NT it does! You are welcome to show me where it refers to Jews! I've looked at this several times and I KNOW you CANNOT quote ONE verse where it indicates Jews! Even in the OT it SOMETIMES refers to Jews but not always! Go ahead, quote ONE VERSE!

It truly is sad and disturbing the level of fabrication and the perversions Pre-tribbers have promoted, and those pre-tribbers have accepted. If you believe the gospel was written only for Jews you would fall for anything. These fabrications prove that pre-trib comes from a bad spirit.

I could probably quote several hundred verses that debunk the foolishness that the gospels were written only for Jews.

The gospel is the good news of the kingdom, NOT the good news for Jews.

I'm sure you've read John 17.

Jesus said,
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

The first Christians were Jews, so your statement is already invalid.

The four Gospels were all the Jews because no Christians existed yet.

There are no Christians on this earth in the flesh from the rapture on.

You're so hepped up on Christian yet you failed to notice the New Jerusalem Jewish name. Christ was born a Jew. The apostles were Jews.

The foundations of the new Jerusalem are Jewish.

In the MK Christ will sit on the throne of David, a Jew. The temple will read restored with its priesthood, all Jews.

The 144,000 chosen of Revelation are Jews.

Your argument is not thought through and is bogus.

 

[Keraz]

God does not test his children.

Read your Bible and give up your false beliefs before its too late.
Holy Discipline:
In the struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. You have forgotten the exhortation, which address you as sons:

My son; do not think lightly of the Lord’s discipline, or be discouraged when He corrects you. For whom the Lord loves, He disciplines and He chastises every son He acknowledges.

You must endure this testing, God is treating you as His children. Can anyone be a child and not be disciplined by his father?

If you avoid the discipline in which all children share, the you must be illegitimate and not true children.

Again, as we paid due respect to our human fathers who disciplined us, we should submit even more readily to our Spiritual father and so attain Life. They disciplined us for a short time, as they thought best, but God does so for our true welfare, so that we may share in His holiness.

Discipline, to be sure, is never pleasant and at times; painful, but afterwards those who have been trained by it will reap the harvest of a peaceful and upright life.

So: brace your drooping arms and shaking knees and keep strong in your faith, then after it is all over God will give healing and blessings.

Hebrews 12:4-13

 

[Keraz]

The 144,000 chosen of Revelation are Jews.

Jews are only of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, with a few from other tribes plus Gentiles, who have joined Judah and become Jews.
The other ten tribes remain scattered among the nations. They can be identified from their Christian faith.

So you constantly make wrong statements in your desperate attempts to prove the false theory of a 'rapture to heaven'.

 

[CoreIssue]

Read your Bible and give up your false beliefs before its too late.
Holy Discipline:
In the struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. You have forgotten the exhortation, which address you as sons:

My son; do not think lightly of the Lord’s discipline, or be discouraged when He corrects you. For whom the Lord loves, He disciplines and He chastises every son He acknowledges.

You must endure this testing, God is treating you as His children. Can anyone be a child and not be disciplined by his father?

If you avoid the discipline in which all children share, the you must be illegitimate and not true children.

Again, as we paid due respect to our human fathers who disciplined us, we should submit even more readily to our Spiritual father and so attain Life. They disciplined us for a short time, as they thought best, but God does so for our true welfare, so that we may share in His holiness.

Discipline, to be sure, is never pleasant and at times; painful, but afterwards those who have been trained by it will reap the harvest of a peaceful and upright life.

So: brace your drooping arms and shaking knees and keep strong in your faith, then after it is all over God will give healing and blessings.

Hebrews 12:4-13

I will restate. God does not test his children as those in the tribulation will be tested.

Discipline from God is not the same as testing.

Testing by others, our sin natures and circumstances is not testing God nor is God say he will protect us from such testing.

Get your word meaning straight.

 

[CoreIssue]

You've fallen for the many pre-trib fabrications. A person who accepted and followed Christ is a Christian. Just because the word isn't used is moot.

That's why I hate pre-trib. All it does is deceive people. Like I said. I counted 28 different pre-trib fabrications and perversions and just like all the rest, you're fallen for every one.

Mathew 24 outright DEBUNKS pre-trib!

But the Bible doesn't call them Christian in the book of Revelation.

Christian includes being born again. Trip saints are not born again while alive.

Christians do not worship in a stone Temple. But in the MK the temple is returned with priest from the tribe of Levi.

Christians do not do and will sacrifice but they will in the MK per Ezekiel.

Matthew 24 does not debunk pre-trib.

 

[CoreIssue]

But the Bible doesn't call them Christian in the book of Revelation.

Christian includes being born again. Trip saints are not born again while alive.

Christians do not worship in a stone Temple. But in the MK the temple is returned with priest from the tribe of Levi.

Christians do not do and will sacrifice but they will in the MK per Ezekiel.

Matthew 24 does not debunk pre-trib.It was written to Jews, not Gentiles.