Can Jesus and Paul be reconciled on the LAW?

[justbyfaith]

1 Corinthians 9:1-3 and Galatians 2:7-9 (esp. v.9) answer the most recent objections for me.

Also, Paul had a high regard for James; he considered him to be an apostle, Galatians 1:19.

 

[Trekson]

Actually, we will be (2 Corinthians 5:10, Revelation 20:12-13, 1 Peter 1:17) though if anyone is saved, he is saved by grace (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:4-7, Romans 11:5-6, Romans 4:1-8). The answer is in 2 Corinthians 5:17.

There are two judgments, the one that determines if we are saved or not will not take into consideration our works, but once we pass the saved judgment we will then be judged by our works to see if we have earned any rewards/crowns or if they will all be burnt in the fire.

 

[justbyfaith]

There are two judgments, the one that determines if we are saved or not will not take into consideration our works, but once we pass the saved judgment we will then be judged by our works to see if we have earned any rewards/crowns or if they will all be burnt in the fire.

Everyone will be judged by their works. For those who are in Christ, their sins are forgiven/washed away, they will only be judged for reward over the good things they did; and will suffer loss over anything they did that was wood, hay, or stubble (possibly some wood will survive if it is overlaid with gold, silver, or precious gems, see Haggai 1:8).

For those who are not in Christ, they will be condemned over the evil things they did, and because they rejected the only forgiveness offered to them.

2 Corinthians 5:10 speaks to me on this. "We" includes the church.

Romans 14:10-12 also speaks.

 

[Danube]

You still can’t get past the fact, the othe 12 didn’t reject him as an apostle.

There are 12 apostles.
They are the pillars of his kingdom!!
You can have the 13th all to yourself.

He was indeed among the most memorable of the Apostles, as per his writings given under inspiration of God.

You or anyone else is having a hard time proving Paul had any inspiration.
Like Jesus showed us...all needs the witness testimony of 2 or more.
Paul requires you to simply accept his apostleship at face value.
I don't though, which seems to get all these Paulinist folk in befuddlement.

 

[Waiting on him]

There are 12 apostles.
They are the pillars of his kingdom!!
You can have the 13th all to yourself.


You or anyone else is having a hard time proving Paul had any inspiration.
Like Jesus showed us...all needs the witness testimony of 2 or more.
Paul requires you to simply accept his apostleship at face value.
I don't though, which seems to get all these Paulinist folk in befuddlement.

And there it is. That is your objective!!befuddlement

 

[Danube]

And there it is. That is your objective!!befuddlement

I can state a fact and you can add your own "intent" onto that if you like, why not?
However...

None of you have offered any proof of Pauls inspiration.... There is no witness testimony for Paul.

Do you not think Jesus would want you to apply what he taught?

Here they are again if you missed them:

John 8:1-11.
Matthew 18:20

Where does that leave Paul's inspiration?

 

[justbyfaith]

There are 12 apostles.
They are the pillars of his kingdom!!
You can have the 13th all to yourself.

Actually, it has been said that Peter was off-base to try and pick Judas' replacement by casting lots. And that God had Paul in mind to be Judas' replacement all along. The fact that his letters to the churches are included in the New Testament testifies to me that Paul was indeed God's pick for the 12th apostle...the one who replaced Judas in slot #12.

We are not in a good frame of thinking to limit God. And that is what Peter did by limiting God's choice of a replacement to those who were present in the upper room (which numbered 120 people). Peter was putting the Lord in a box...and God said, "No, Peter...I don't fit in a box!"

Paul requires you to simply accept his apostleship at face value.
I don't though, which seems to get all these Paulinist folk in befuddlement.

I am certainly not befuddled by your rejection of Paul. (Perhaps a little concerned for you, since you are very likely to miss the most important piece of the puzzle when it comes to your salvation). I am quite secure in my understanding that Paul was a real, bona fide, genuine apostle. The ministry that the Holy Spirit has provided to me through his words is something that no one can take away from me; my faith in it is secure.

 

[justbyfaith]

You or anyone else is having a hard time proving Paul had any inspiration.
Like Jesus showed us...all needs the witness testimony of 2 or more.

Again, see Galatians 2:9.

 

[ScottA]

Hi @ScottA,

We must consider that it is the spirit of antichrist that would lead you to believe that Jesus isn't come in the flesh. He ate a piece of broiled fish after His resurrection. And He said to the disciples that He would not drink again of the fruit of the vine until he drinks it new with us in the kingdom of God. When He was on the earth, and Peter went out to Him on the water, He reached out and caught Peter with His hand.

Who said anything about Jesus not coming in the flesh? Indeed he has come in the flesh already. But which is greater and the glory of God, the flesh or the spirit?

The real question is why would anyone believe that Jesus would come again to do what He has already done, since he has said, "It is finished?" Whoever does this, obviously does not believe what is written of him.

 

[Jun2u]

The word apostle derives from a Greek verb that means “to send.” It follows that, to be an apostle of Christ, Christ must have sent one.

Indeed you do know the meaning of the word “apostle” that is “one who is sent” and I wanted to hear/verify that from your own lips. However, you do NOT KNOW how Scripture defines the meaning of the word.

Firstly, anyone that follows the teachings of Jesus is said to be a disciple of His.

Secondly, I will prove (you probably will disagree and that’s alright because it is irrelevant) that Paul and Jesus’ disciples are qualified to be apostles. Note, I did not say “were” qualified because it is still ongoing.

There are two fundamental principles/examples the Bible teaches who qualifies as an apostle (sent).

THE ACCOUNT AT PENTECOST

It is a common belief that the Holy Spirit was first given to the people at Pentecost so as to speak in tongues. That is an erroneous teaching. This must be read in light of Acts 1:8 when Jesus gave the power (dunamis) of the Holy Spirit to the apostles to begin to evangelize the world. Hence, the people heard the Gospel in their own native tongues which was about fifteen different dialects.

THE GREAT COMMISSION

Matthew 28:19-20
19) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations , baptizing them into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Armed with the knowledge above and since all the apostles being gone, we see then that all born-again believers are mandated by Jesus to go into all the world and preach the Gospel to every nation as set forth in Acts 1:8 and Matthew 28:19-20 so as to continue building the house/church of Jesus in which He began at Pentecost. Therefore, in order for Jesus to continue to build His church He had to put into service “send” all the believers. BTW, this was prophesied by the prophet Joel and is not a new teaching.

To God Be The Glory

 

[Jun2u]

Paul was not a very good liar (Paulinists rate lies as being good or bad depending on if Paul told the lie)
Paul did not rate Jesus' own brother James much though.
How odd.

You keep saying Paul is a liar and that you hate all liars especially someone who claims to be an apostle. Didn’t I tell you all of Paul’s sins have been forgiven before the foundation of the world and I gave you the Scripture reference Revelation 13:8?

Why then do you insist that you know more than God? In fact, God forgave Paul of his sins when He went to the cross NOT you!!! Or, did you???

2 John 1:9-11
9) Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he had both the Father and Son.
10) If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11) For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

According to the above, are you worth it for any of us here to disobey God just to bring you to salvation?

To God Be The Glory

 

[Danube]

You keep saying Paul is a liar and that you hate all liars especially someone who claims to be an apostle. Didn’t I tell you all of Paul’s sins have been forgiven before the foundation of the world and I gave you the Scripture reference Revelation 13:8?

Why then do you insist that you know more than God? In fact, God forgave Paul of his sins when He went to the cross NOT you!!! Or, did you???

2 John 1:9-11
9) Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he had both the Father and Son.
10) If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11) For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

According to the above, are you worth it for any of us here to disobey God just to bring you to salvation?

To God Be The Glory

I have Jesus.
I do not need Paul for salvation.
What part of that are you struggling with?

 

[mjrhealth]

I have Jesus.
I do not need Paul for salvation.
What part of that are you struggling with?

The probelm is not teh you having Jesus or not, but how can one have Christ and not recognize the truth when one sees it. Jesus is the Truth and Pauls gospel of Grace through faith is completely in line with salvation though Jesus...

 

[Danube]

The probelm is not teh you having Jesus or not, but how can one have Christ and not recognize the truth when one sees it. Jesus is the Truth and Pauls gospel of Grace through faith is completely in line with salvation though Jesus...

Jesus taught the commandments, taught that having love for the father was keeping his commands.... Last time I checked Paul says it is ok to eat anything because nothing is unclean, or eat meat that has been sacrificed to strange/foreign gods, he said it was ok to lie to people to gain their trust (act greek around the greeks or jewish around the jews etc etc).

 

[mjrhealth]

Jesus taught the commandments, taught that having love for the father was keeping his commands.... Last time I checked Paul says it is ok to eat anything because nothing is unclean, or eat meat that has been sacrificed to strange/foreign gods, he said it was ok to lie to people to gain their trust (act greek around the greeks or jewish around the jews etc etc).

you really have no idea.. none at all...

 

[Danube]

you really have no idea.. none at all...

You seem lost for giving any answer. Check Pauls negations of the same commandments, Jesus teaches you are required to keep the commandments to show your "love" of the father. Do you ignore the contradictions?

 

[Stranger]

I can state a fact and you can add your own "intent" onto that if you like, why not?
However...

None of you have offered any proof of Pauls inspiration.... There is no witness testimony for Paul.

Do you not think Jesus would want you to apply what he taught?

Here they are again if you missed them:

John 8:1-11.
Matthew 18:20

Where does that leave Paul's inspiration?

You're not paying attention, or probably just ignoring. Paul was never one of the 12 disciples. He was a disciple born out of due time. (1 Cor. 15:8) And he saw the risen Christ. He didn't need the disciples approval of his apostleship.

But, note this. (2 Peter 3:15-16) "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction."

Couple of things you should see in these verses. 1.) Peter identifies Paul's writings as Scripture. 2.) You are mentioned in the last sentence.

So, you don't believe Paul's writings are Scripture. And Psalms can't be Scripture as it says the same as Paul said. Now, Peter's epistles can't be Scripture as he declares Paul's writings are Scripture. So again my question that you're scared to answer. What writings in the Bible do you consider Scripture?

Stranger

 

[Danube]

You're not paying attention, or probably just ignoring. Paul was never one of the 12 disciples. He was a disciple born out of due time. (1 Cor. 15:8) And he saw the risen Christ. He didn't need the disciples approval of his apostleship.

But, note this. (2 Peter 3:15-16) "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction."

Couple of things you should see in these verses. 1.) Peter identifies Paul's writings as Scripture. 2.) You are mentioned in the last sentence.

So, you don't believe Paul's writings are Scripture. And Psalms can't be Scripture as it says the same as Paul said. Now, Peter's epistles can't be Scripture as he declares Paul's writings are Scripture. So again my question that you're scared to answer. What writings in the Bible do you consider Scripture?

Stranger

Like I have explained many many times, when I have read (and understand the meaning thereof) of ANY scripture I either do not fully understand at the present time, I can give you an honest answer. You can allude to the meal before you eat or to the service, you can allude even to some apparant imaginary fear of your question, problem is you will likely not be satisfied one way or another.
God has given me all the time neccessary to learn what is being said from all perspectives (spirit, knowledge and commands...all of it) who says what to who and why.
I have raised many questions regarding Paul and like you have done above, like most who have been kind enough to answer, is to prove Paul by quoting Paul. I am not getting through to anyone when I say quote Paul directly by name outside of his own works, relate the warnings that you say you hear but cannot place them. What is genuine scripture in the bible, good question, can I still continue my research so I can get to that point of knowing. At best we have fragments of works that so far the writer cannot even be known. At present I am grappling with the clear (to me anyway) contradictions in the flow of scripture only until I read Pauls letters. If that offends you tough, it is my duty to use the bible as a historical, spiritual, migrationary time piece that itself alludes to error and rereading.
I wont trawl through this thread to use this as an opportunity now to re ask all the important questions that have been dodged or just to point score some silly arguement based upon differences in belief. I don't care if you or anyone else are certain in your own mind about anything of Paul, biblical or not.
I still do not see ANYONE here born again or without error. So far Jesus' words is where I am grounded, does that mean I write this person or that person off....NO, especially while I am reading Pauls letters.

 

[Danube]

...And he saw the risen Christ.

Are you sure?

 

[Stranger]

Like I have explained many many times, when I have read (and understand the meaning thereof) of ANY scripture I either do not fully understand at the present time, I can give you an honest answer. You can allude to the meal before you eat or to the service, you can allude even to some apparant imaginary fear of your question, problem is you will likely not be satisfied one way or another.
God has given me all the time neccessary to learn what is being said from all perspectives (spirit, knowledge and commands...all of it) who says what to who and why.
I have raised many questions regarding Paul and like you have done above, like most who have been kind enough to answer, is to prove Paul by quoting Paul. I am not getting through to anyone when I say quote Paul directly by name outside of his own works, relate the warnings that you say you hear but cannot place them. What is genuine scripture in the bible, good question, can I still continue my research so I can get to that point of knowing. At best we have fragments of works that so far the writer cannot even be known. At present I am grappling with the clear (to me anyway) contradictions in the flow of scripture only until I read Pauls letters. If that offends you tough, it is my duty to use the bible as a historical, spiritual, migrationary time piece that itself alludes to error and rereading.
I wont trawl through this thread to use this as an opportunity now to re ask all the important questions that have been dodged or just to point score some silly arguement based upon differences in belief. I don't care if you are certain in your own mind about anything, biblical or not.
Funny putting questions here on a forum and watching how people under grace behave or conduct themselves.

If you don't know what is Scripture, what is inspired by God, why do you label yourself 'Christian'? That you are 'grappling' is clear to see.

I gave you Scripture from Peter now and from David before. Yet you do not address it. Why? Because it disproves your position.

What offends me is you presenting yourself as Christian and then trying to disprove the inspiration of the Bible. It was clear at the beginning that was where you were going.

I have answered your questions. It is you who have ignored mine. Again, address Peters comments I gave you on Paul. Tell me that Peter is not Scripture also.

It's funny watching people as yourself project themselves as Christian but are trying to tear down the Christian faith. Do you think you are the first one. We see them all the time.

How did you like that last line in (2 Peter 3:16). "...they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." Funny how the Scriptures speak to your position. Just like (Rom 3:8). "And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just." And that is just what you were claiming. You are finding yourself in bad company. Or should I say we are finding you in bad company.

Stranger