D
Dave L
Guest
Scripture supports the priesthood of all believers. It does not mention a distinction between clergy and laity.No - YOU haven't any Biblical support for YOUR asinine claim that Catholic Priests are "frauds" . . .
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Scripture supports the priesthood of all believers. It does not mention a distinction between clergy and laity.No - YOU haven't any Biblical support for YOUR asinine claim that Catholic Priests are "frauds" . . .
I am not part of any movement or denomination.If you are a Trinitarian Christian and you are neither a Catholic nor an Orthodox Christian - then you are a Protestant by definition.
Your version of church is not found in the NT. All denominations are man made and will never rise above that. Only they will entropy over time.I don't respond to cluster bombing / shot gun tactics. You have no biblical support for using scripture to attack the Church. The Bible never does that. You do it because it is a man made tradition.
They are frauds because scripture calls all believers priests. And there is no difference between clergy and laity in the NT.Then "fraud priests" would have been recorded somewhere, like the heretics Arius, Nestorius, Apollinarius and legions of other heretics. All recorded. But even your reference manuals don't list the names of your alleged "fraud priests". Neither do you. You are making up falsehoods as you go along.
Acts and the rest of the epistles present house churches as common place. And all believers are priests. And clergy and laity are synonyms. So you are without scriptural support for any claim to denominationalism or institutional churches as being the NT model.Dave, how long should I wait for the name of a house church run by a fraud priest?
The historic Church has always had three levels of priests, and has always taught the priesthood of all believers. The distinction is found in function, not status. "Man of God" always refers to one who is ordained, or one who is called directly by God. Nowhere in scripture is "man of God" any layman.Scripture supports the priesthood of all believers. It does not mention a distinction between clergy and laity.
But no scripture directly supports this.The historic Church has always had three levels of priests, and has always taught the priesthood of all believers. The distinction is found in function, not status. "Man of God" always refers to one who is ordained, or one who is called directly by God. Nowhere in scripture is "man of God" any layman.
That does not answer the question. Your charge of "fraud priests" is stupid ignorant bigotry and your running with this non-reply because you got caught in a lie. You have no history and no scripture to support this insult.Acts and the rest of the epistles present house churches as common place. And all believers are priests. And clergy and laity are synonyms. So you are without scriptural support for any claim to denominationalism or institutional churches as being the NT model.
They are fraudulent because they usurp the priesthood of the believer. And they make and artificial division between clergy and laity. Which are synonyms.That does not answer the question. Your charge of "fraud priests" is stupid ignorant bigotry and your running with this non-reply because you got caught in a lie. You have no history and no scripture to support this insult.
Knock it off. Your paying games. You can't find "man of God" in scripture? First, the notion that every doctrine and practice must be explicitly found in scripture IS NOT IN SCRIPTURE! I'll deal with the sola scriptura farce later.But no scripture directly supports this.
Scripture refutes everything you say.Knock it off. Your paying games. You can't find "man of God" in scripture? First, the notion that every doctrine and practice must be explicitly found in scripture IS NOT IN SCRIPTURE! I'll deal with the sola scriptura farce later.
"...Though many Protestant pastors apply St. Paul's words, "rightly divide the word of truth," to themselves, in fact, these words were written to St. Timothy specifically, not to the congregation in general. 2 Tim. 3:16-17 shows the relationship between the legitimate ambassador and Scripture:
"All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work." (2 Tim. 3:16-17)
There is the relationship: the Scriptures are a tool for "teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness," but who is to use this tool for these purposes? That is, who has the authority to teach, reproof, correct, and train others in righteousness? The "man of God" has this authority.
But, who is the "man of God?" You may wish to claim this title for yourself as well, but a short survey of Scripture's use of the title will reveal that this, too, is a privileged title that cannot be simply taken upon oneself:
Moses - "This is the blessing with which Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death." (Deut. 33:1)
"Then the people of Judah came to Joshua at Gilgal; and Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenizzite said to him, 'You know what the LORD said to Moses the man of God in Kadesh-barnea concerning you and me.'" (Josh. 14:6)
The Angel of the Lord - "Then the woman came and told her husband, 'A man of God came to me, and his countenance was like the countenance of the angel of God, very terrible; I did not ask him whence he was, and he did not tell me his name...' Then Manoah entreated the LORD, and said, 'O, LORD, I pray thee, let the man of God whom thou didst send come again to us, and teach us what we are to do with the boy that will be born.'" (Jud. 13:6, 8)
Samuel - "The servant answered Saul again, 'Here, I have with me the fourth part of a shekel of silver, and I will give it to the man of God, to tell us our way.'" (1 Sam. 9:8)
Elijah - "And she said to Elijah, 'What have you against me, O man of God? You have come to me to bring my sin to remembrance, and to cause the death of my son!'" (1 Kings 17:18)
Elisha - "And she went up and laid him on the bed of the man of God, and shut the door upon him, and went out... When Elisha came into the house, he saw the child lying dead on his bed." (2 Kings 4:21, 32)
David - "According to the ordinance of David his father, he appointed the divisions of the priests for their service, and the Levites for their offices of praise and ministry before the priests as the duty of each day required, and the gatekeepers in their divisions for the several gates; for so David the man of God had commanded." (2 Chr. 8:14)
St. Timothy - "But as for you, man of God, shun all this; aim at righteousness, godliness, faith, love, steadfastness, gentleness." (1 Tim. 6:11)
Contrary to the opinion that the "man of God" can be any Christian without distinction, Scripture itself will not allow such an interpretation, insisting that the "man of God" is a figure of authority, either commissioned by God directly through Divine Intervention (such as Moses or the Angel), or appointed by another holder of authority (such as Samuel, David, Elisha, and St. Timothy).
From this very brief survey of the phrase "man of God" (there are perhaps a dozen or so more passages, relating to the characters listed above - I have chosen representative verses), we see that what holds true for "pastors" holds true for the "man of God": it is a title of authority that can in no way be taken upon oneself, but rather, it is bestowed upon a man by a higher authority. A man must be called by God to hold this title of "man of God."
But there is another objection here: you will say, "I have been called by God to be a pastor." Very well, let us take another look at Scripture to measure your claim.
Biblically, there is only one way to become a legitimate ambassador of Christ, or "pastor": by appointment from a superior. This can be done in two ways: being commissioned by a legitimate ambassador (apostolic succession), or being called directly by God. We saw examples of this in Scripture already: Ss. Timothy and Titus were appointed to their positions of authority by succession, Moses was appointed to his position directly by God, with no human mediation.
As to the first method, apostolic succession comes through the laying on of hands in ceremony: "Hence I remind you to rekindle the gift of God that is within you through the laying on of my hands... guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us." (2 Tim. 1:6, 14)
When St. Paul imposed his hands on St. Timothy, he passed on a legitimate apostolic authority, "entrusted" the "truth" to him, and imparted the gift of "the Holy Spirit" for the safekeeping and preservation of the Gospel.
As has already been said, only a superior can do this, and not an inferior, since an inferior cannot pass on what he does not already possess.
By What Authority - A Challenge to Protestant Pastors
You have invented a new religion. The priesthood usurps nothing. The three levels of priest has been explained to you, you are just too proud to be corrected. See BoL post #141.They are fraudulent because they usurp the priesthood of the believer. And they make and artificial division between clergy and laity. Which are synonyms.
Translation: "I can't refute all those RELEVANT scriptures so I'll make a meaningless quip."Scripture refutes everything you say.
I can't force you to believe the truth, so I present it for all to read.Translation: "I can't refute all those RELEVANT scriptures so I'll make a meaningless quip."
The visible institutional and denominational churches are man made. The do not originate in the NT.You have invented a new religion. The priesthood usurps nothing. The three levels of priest has been explained to you, you are just too proud to be corrected. See BoL post #141.
The Office of New Testament Priest – Jimmy Akin
...the three-fold model of the priesthood which was in use at the time of Aaron was carried over into the New Testament and thus we find there also a high priest, ministerial priests, and universal priests. In the New Testament age the high priest is Jesus Christ (Heb. 3:1), the ministerial priests are Christ’s ordained ministers of the gospel (Rom. 15:16), and the universal priests are the entire Christian people (1 Peter. 2:5, 9).
So the Bible clearly states that all Christians are priests (1 Peter 2:5, 9), as the Catholic Church clearly teaches for all who bother to read its teachings, see Catechism of the Catholic Church 1141-4, 1268, 1305, 1535, 1547, 1591-2 on the common priesthood. But the Bible also said the same thing about the Israelites (Ex. 19:6), yet this did not prevent there from being a separate, ministerial priesthood even before the Law of Moses was given (Ex. 19:22, 24).
When I go to Mass, I exercise my common priesthood as a co-celebrant with the primary celebrant. We are participants, not spectators. Priesthood that usurps the common priesthood is just another stupid insult.
You add to scripture if you cannot support your claims from scripture. Serious error.Knock it off. Your paying games. You can't find "man of God" in scripture? First, the notion that every doctrine and practice must be explicitly found in scripture IS NOT IN SCRIPTURE! I'll deal with the sola scriptura farce later.
"...Though many Protestant pastors apply St. Paul's words, "rightly divide the word of truth," to themselves, in fact, these words were written to St. Timothy specifically, not to the congregation in general. 2 Tim. 3:16-17 shows the relationship between the legitimate ambassador and Scripture:
"All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work." (2 Tim. 3:16-17)
There is the relationship: the Scriptures are a tool for "teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness," but who is to use this tool for these purposes? That is, who has the authority to teach, reproof, correct, and train others in righteousness? The "man of God" has this authority.
But, who is the "man of God?" You may wish to claim this title for yourself as well, but a short survey of Scripture's use of the title will reveal that this, too, is a privileged title that cannot be simply taken upon oneself:
Moses - "This is the blessing with which Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death." (Deut. 33:1)
"Then the people of Judah came to Joshua at Gilgal; and Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenizzite said to him, 'You know what the LORD said to Moses the man of God in Kadesh-barnea concerning you and me.'" (Josh. 14:6)
The Angel of the Lord - "Then the woman came and told her husband, 'A man of God came to me, and his countenance was like the countenance of the angel of God, very terrible; I did not ask him whence he was, and he did not tell me his name...' Then Manoah entreated the LORD, and said, 'O, LORD, I pray thee, let the man of God whom thou didst send come again to us, and teach us what we are to do with the boy that will be born.'" (Jud. 13:6, 8)
Samuel - "The servant answered Saul again, 'Here, I have with me the fourth part of a shekel of silver, and I will give it to the man of God, to tell us our way.'" (1 Sam. 9:8)
Elijah - "And she said to Elijah, 'What have you against me, O man of God? You have come to me to bring my sin to remembrance, and to cause the death of my son!'" (1 Kings 17:18)
Elisha - "And she went up and laid him on the bed of the man of God, and shut the door upon him, and went out... When Elisha came into the house, he saw the child lying dead on his bed." (2 Kings 4:21, 32)
David - "According to the ordinance of David his father, he appointed the divisions of the priests for their service, and the Levites for their offices of praise and ministry before the priests as the duty of each day required, and the gatekeepers in their divisions for the several gates; for so David the man of God had commanded." (2 Chr. 8:14)
St. Timothy - "But as for you, man of God, shun all this; aim at righteousness, godliness, faith, love, steadfastness, gentleness." (1 Tim. 6:11)
Contrary to the opinion that the "man of God" can be any Christian without distinction, Scripture itself will not allow such an interpretation, insisting that the "man of God" is a figure of authority, either commissioned by God directly through Divine Intervention (such as Moses or the Angel), or appointed by another holder of authority (such as Samuel, David, Elisha, and St. Timothy).
From this very brief survey of the phrase "man of God" (there are perhaps a dozen or so more passages, relating to the characters listed above - I have chosen representative verses), we see that what holds true for "pastors" holds true for the "man of God": it is a title of authority that can in no way be taken upon oneself, but rather, it is bestowed upon a man by a higher authority. A man must be called by God to hold this title of "man of God."
But there is another objection here: you will say, "I have been called by God to be a pastor." Very well, let us take another look at Scripture to measure your claim.
Biblically, there is only one way to become a legitimate ambassador of Christ, or "pastor": by appointment from a superior. This can be done in two ways: being commissioned by a legitimate ambassador (apostolic succession), or being called directly by God. We saw examples of this in Scripture already: Ss. Timothy and Titus were appointed to their positions of authority by succession, Moses was appointed to his position directly by God, with no human mediation.
As to the first method, apostolic succession comes through the laying on of hands in ceremony: "Hence I remind you to rekindle the gift of God that is within you through the laying on of my hands... guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us." (2 Tim. 1:6, 14)
When St. Paul imposed his hands on St. Timothy, he passed on a legitimate apostolic authority, "entrusted" the "truth" to him, and imparted the gift of "the Holy Spirit" for the safekeeping and preservation of the Gospel.
As has already been said, only a superior can do this, and not an inferior, since an inferior cannot pass on what he does not already possess.
By What Authority - A Challenge to Protestant Pastors
And NOWHERE does this even IMPLY that the Ten Commandments would be abolished or replaced.“Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, That I will make a new covenant With the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers In the day that I took them by the hand To bring them out of the land of Egypt; Which my covenant they brake, Although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, And write it in their hearts; And will be their God, And they shall be my people.” (Jeremiah 31:31–33) (KJV 1900)
The Ten Commandments were the Old Covenant. Jeremiah says the New Covenant replaced them.And NOWHERE does this even IMPLY that the Ten Commandments would be abolished or replaced.
How about you stop lying and try being honest for change??