The Watchtower Society At Our Doors

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Webers_Home

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SOLOMON vs JESUS

2Tim 3:16 . . All scripture is inspired of God

Followers of Islam claim that the entirety of the Koran was given to
Muhammad word for word via voice dictation; but Christians dare not make
the same claim for the Old Testament, viz: though it's all inspired, it was not
all given word for word via voice dictation.

Bible students are often baffled as to why Solomon's remarks in the book of
Ecclesiastes sometimes contradict Jesus' teachings in the New Testament.
Well; the answer to that is actually pretty simple.

Solomon wasn't inspired to record his observations from the perspective of
an enlightened man who's privy to knowledge beyond the scope of empirical
evidence and human experience; rather, from the perspective of a man
under the sun; viz: a down to earth thinking man whose perception of reality
is moderated by what he can see for himself going on around him in the
physical universe; which of course results in an evaluation of life on earth as
seen from the earth rather than an evaluation of life on earth as seen from
heaven.

In other words: Ecclesiastes is one man's world view-- his personal
philosophy of life --rather than a book of either history, revelation, or
prophecy; and it's loaded with pessimism; which is basically a mindset
inclined to dwell on the negative in human experience rather than the
positive. For example:

"You only go around once, so do it with all the gusto you can get!"

That was a Schlitz beer advertisement some years ago. It's worldly wisdom
thru and thru rather than heavenly. Compare it to a couple of Solomon's
remarks:

Ecc 9:5 . . The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead,
they are conscious of nothing at all

Ecc 9:10 . . All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for
there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol, the place
to which you are going.

That wisdom is Schlitz beer wisdom thru and thru.

Solomon was a very wise man; in point of fact, he was the brightest
intellectual of his day. But Solomon's knowledge and experience were
limited. He didn't know everything there is to know, nor had he seen
everything there is to see, nor been everywhere there is to go.

Matt 12:42 . .The queen of the south will be raised up in the judgment
with this generation and will condemn it; because she came from the ends of
the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, but, look! something more than
Solomon is here.

In other words; Jesus' wisdom trumps Solomon's.

John 1:1-3 . . In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God,
and the Word was a god. This one was in the beginning with God. All things
came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing
came into existence.

Col 2:3 . . Carefully concealed in him are all the treasures of wisdom and
of knowledge.

And Jesus' comes highly recommended too.

Matt 17:5 . . This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved; listen to
him.

So then, when encountering remarks in the book of Ecclesiastes that are out
of step with Jesus' teachings in the New Testament, my unsolicited spiritual
counseling is: go with "my Son".

John 8:12 . . I am the light of the world. He that follows me will by no
means walk in darkness, but will possess the light of life.
_
 
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Webers_Home

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THE ELITE 144,000

So-called Replacement Theology is just another name for identity theft. Take
for example the Watchtower Society's interpretation of Rev 7:1-8 wherein is
listed a specific number of Hebrews taken from every tribe of the sons of
Israel.

The Society alleges that those aren't biological sons of Israel; but rather
"spiritual" sons-- referring of course to the Society's elite cadre of 144,000
Witnesses who have supposedly undergone a spirit birth as per Christ's
instruction at John 3:3-8; and the anointing as per 1John 2:26-27.

The Society's allegation is premised upon its observation that there never
was a tribe of Joseph; when in reality Joseph is listed as both a son and a
tribe at Gen 49:2-28, and as a tribe at Ezek 48:31-34. So that portion of the
Society's reasoning is clearly a false premise.

The Society's allegation is also premised upon its observation that Ephraim
and Dan are missing from the list of tribes at Rev 7:4-8. However, what the
Society's theologians have somehow overlooked in the Old Testament is that
it doesn't matter whose names are chosen to represent the twelve tribes of
Israel just so long as there are twelve names. Are there twelve in Rev 7:4
-8? Yes. Well then that's good enough. I realize that makes no sense but then
the Lord's apostles were still referred to as "the twelve" even with Judas out
of the picture. So that premise in the Society's reasoning is spurious too.

The Society's allegation is also premised upon its reasoning that Levi isn't a
valid tribe based upon the fact that the Levites are exempt from warfare.
However, Levi is clearly listed as both a son and a tribe along with Joseph at
Gen 49:2-28. Levi is also listed as a tribe at Ezek 48:31-34; which is a good
many years after Num 1:1-54. So that premise is bogus too.

The Watchtower Society not wanting the 144,000 to be biological Hebrews is
one thing; but I would just like to know from whence Charles T. Russell's
and Joseph F. Rutherford's followers got the idea that their people constitute
the 144,000. That's a pretty serious claim. How do they validate it? I don't
know; but I can just about guarantee that their explanation is an outlandish
stretch of the imagination consisting of humanistic reasoning, rationalizing,
clever sophistry, and semantic double-speak.


NOTE: According to Rev 14:1-4, the 144,000 are supposed to be all male,
and none have ever slept with a woman. That, if true, would of course
disqualify married Witnesses.
_
 

Nancy

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I am no fan of general JW doctrines or culture, a fact that I've made quite clear on this forum. I'm a advocate for letting people explain their own beliefs, and hence visit many other churches. I've told how my visits to JW services and talking with their missionaries ended disastrously. Like I said, I am not a fan.

That being said, Martin's and Schnell's books are extremely inaccurate junk. I would not recommend that miseducation to anyone.

NO.

The first challenge of evangelizing anyone is showing them that you honestly care about them. You must first establish that you care, else even preaching with the tongue of angels is just clanking brass.

As has been said "Nobody cares how much you know until they know how much you care" ♥
 
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aspen

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I am no fan of general JW doctrines or culture, a fact that I've made quite clear on this forum. I'm a advocate for letting people explain their own beliefs, and hence visit many other churches. I've told how my visits to JW services and talking with their missionaries ended disastrously. Like I said, I am not a fan.

That being said, Martin's and Schnell's books are extremely inaccurate junk. I would not recommend that miseducation to anyone.

NO.

The first challenge of evangelizing anyone is showing them that you honestly care about them. You must first establish that you care, else even preaching with the tongue of angels is just clanking brass.

This really is a great point. If we are sharing our most intimate relationship with an another.......shouldn’t we have already cultivated a close relationship with the person we are sharing with? I don’t share information about my close relationships with strangers because, frankly it is a bit creepy and it cheapens and betrays my relationships.
 

FatalMoves

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For a home-spun religion whose origin is relatively recent, the Watchtower
Society has done pretty well for itself. Beginning with one man shortly after
the American Civil War, it currently numbers approximately 8.2 million
active members spread out in approximately 118,000 congregations
worldwide. (Congregations have been displaced and consolidated in recent
years due to the Society liquidating a number of Kingdom Halls in order to
settle its legal obligations.)

My first encounter with a Watchtower Society missionary (a.k.a. Jehovah's
Witness) occurred in 1969. At the time I was young and inexperienced; and
thus assumed that the hewer of wood, and hauler of water coming down my
dad's driveway was a typical Christian.

But when I talked this over with an elder; he became alarmed; and urged
me to read a little book titled "30 Years A Watchtower Slave" by William J.
Schnell; whom the Society at one time demonized as an agent of Satan. I
would not be surprised if it still does.

After getting my eyes opened by Mr. Schnell's book, I was afterwards
steered towards another book titled "Kingdom Of The Cults" by Walter
Martin. No doubt the Society demonizes Mr. Martin too.

Around late 1980, my wife and I attended a series of lectures sponsored by
a local church titled "How To Witness To Jehovah's Witnesses". The speaker
(call him Pete) was an ex Witness who had been in the Watchtower Society
system for near three decades and was an area manager before terminating
his association with the Society; so he knew the twists and turns of its
doctrines pretty good.

Later on, I read a book titled "Why I Left The Jehovah's Witnesses" by Ted
Dencher. I also read the Society's little brown book titled "Reasoning From
The Scriptures".

From all that vetting, study, and training I quickly discovered that although
the Watchtower Society uses many of classical Christianity's standard terms
and phrases, those terms and phrases mean something entirely different in
the Witness mind than what you'd expect because the Society has re-defined
the meanings of those terminologies.

So your first challenge with Watchtower Society teachings is to scale the
language barrier. That by itself is an Herculean task because you'll not only
be up against a tangle of semantics, but also a Jumanji of twisted scriptures,
double speak, humanistic reasoning, rationalizing, and clever sophistry.
_
Those people are always happy. I wonder why they're happy. Are they happy because of what they believe? Say your miserable because of what you believe, should you believe something that makes you happy. But if their beliefs are really really wrong then why are they happy? Does my head in.
 

BrotherIan

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lol, yer there happy because its Gods reward for all the remarkable work they do.
I had two Epiphanys after a ruptured Artery and extremely high troponin levels indicating death,
no heart damage, have you ever seen Doctors looking bewildered? i have .
then arriving home i needed support but whom??? no one was there for me.
then a vehicle drove up my track to home, and J.W found me,
i told them i was praying to God to send some one.
Over the next 2 days i had 2 epiphanys right where i had my heart attack,
in front of my fire place, yes i was praying and amazing things happened
i grabbed the video camera and recorded.
i have posted here today, the two videos.
Thanks To J.W Fellowship, for there unconditional love and God and the Angels that sent them ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
Brotherian.
 
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FatalMoves

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lol, yer there happy because its Gods reward for all the remarkable work they do.
I had two Epiphanys after a ruptured Artery and extremely high troponin levels indicating death,
no heart damage, have you ever seen Doctors looking bewildered? i have .
then arriving home i needed support but whom??? no one was there for me.
then a vehicle drove up my track to home, and J.W found me,
i told them i was praying to God to send some one.
Over the next 2 days i had 2 epiphanys right where i had my heart attack,
in front of my fire place, yes i was praying and amazing things happened
i grabbed the video camera and recorded.
i have posted here today, the two videos.
Thanks To J.W Fellowship, for there unconditional love and God and the Angels that sent them ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
Brotherian.
So you're a JW I suppose.
 

BrotherIan

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No Sir, was Baptised a Catholic, Though later in life decided to remain Neutral,
as to mix with all Men.
though J.W have shown more Love and Compassion
than any other Religion has, though i never discount a Human for
what ever they Follow, So long as they follow and try there best to live a Mirror Image
of Jesus's Teachings. It is Quiet Simple, unfortunately there is a Reverse force,
that Side tracks many of us from a Spiritual Journey.
Peace n Love.
Ian
 
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FatalMoves

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No Sir, was Baptised a Catholic, Though later in life decided to remain Neutral,
as to mix with all Men.
though J.W have shown more Love and Compassion
than any other Religion has, though i never discount a Human for
what ever they Follow, So long as they follow and try there best to live a Mirror Image
of Jesus's Teachings. It is Quiet Simple, unfortunately there is a Reverse force,
that Side tracks many of us from a Spiritual Journey.
Peace n Love.
Ian
Okay then.
 

Nancy

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No Sir, was Baptised a Catholic, Though later in life decided to remain Neutral,
as to mix with all Men.
though J.W have shown more Love and Compassion
than any other Religion has, though i never discount a Human for
what ever they Follow, So long as they follow and try there best to live a Mirror Image
of Jesus's Teachings. It is Quiet Simple, unfortunately there is a Reverse force,
that Side tracks many of us from a Spiritual Journey.
Peace n Love.
Ian

Welcome, brother.
Well, that was easy :)
In Him,
nancy
 
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brakelite

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I highly recommend avoiding debate with JWs over the personage of God's
spirit because they will match you scripture for scripture and you're likely to
just end up going round and round in circles and never get to the bottom of
anything.
Could that be because there is more scriptural evidence in favour of their understanding than your own more "orthodox" opinion? I would suggest an even better reason for avoiding such a debate with them. Because you are discussing something which is holy, sacred, something only God truly understands and has decided not to share yet with mortal man. Amazing we create formulas and creeds and denounce others on this subject which none of fully understand, and most of us get wrong in the little we pretend to understand.
 
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brakelite

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.
THE SON's GOD

John 20:17 . . Be on your way to my brothers and say to them; "I am
ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God."

Q: If Jesus is God Almighty, as classical Christianity insists, then how can
he have a god? Does God worship God?

A: I have yet to encounter the language of John 20:17 in reverse, viz: I
have yet to see a passage in the Bible where God refers to His son as
"my God".

In other words: there is a definite hierarchy in the divine relationship just as
there is a definite hierarchy in human relationships. Though all members of a
human family are equally human, they are not all equal in rank; some are
superior and some are subordinate.

For simplicity's sake; it helps to think of "God Almighty" as a species. In that
respect when God Almighty begot a son, He begat a God Almighty son
because that's the only kind of offspring that a God Almighty can engender;
just as when humans beget a son, they beget a human son because that's
the only kind of offspring that humans can engender.

Now, we can volley back and forth with the JWs, countering each other's
verses with more verses: verse upon verse; but I can just about guarantee
that us and they will both be chasing our tails and getting nowhere unless
we approach the Son's relationship to his Father from a biological
perspective; which is a perspective that just about anybody with even a
cursory knowledge of the birds and the bees can understand with ease.
_
Christ was a Son before the incarnation. The apostle John went to great pains to prove that Christ Jesus was the Son of God. The only begotten. Both in his gospel, and in the first two of his letters, John repeatedly exalted Christ as God's only Son. Yet not once, unlike the other gospel writers, did he mention Bethlehem...the incarnation...the wise men...the shepherds seeing angels...a stable...manger...or gifts. Nothing. If John was trying to prove Jesus was God's Son why not quote Micah and prove Jesus was born in Bethlehem and by done with it? Set and match. But no. John was not trying to prove Jesus was born a man...He was proving Christ's divinity. His divine heritage as a Son of the Almighty from before creation...and as you correctly say above, because He is from eternity the Son of the Father, then Jesus can be none other than fully divine, 100% deity. It is His Sonship that irrevocably proves His divinity...which unfortunately is denied in many peoples thinking as a result of blindly accepting the trinitarian perspective of the Godhead.
 
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brakelite

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As to what He does with it? well; that's the bone of contention between
classical Christianity and the Watchtower Society. In their mind's eye,
Solomon is the afterlife expert; while in classical Christianity's judgment,
Christ's savvy trumps Solomon.
I think that you would discover that Solomon and Christ agree, as did the apostles, than only God hath immortality. Any attempt to prove that the human spirit is also immortal falls spectacularly earthwards when one considers the only immortal God is essentially and eternally the only immortal Spirit, God being Spirit and all.
 

Enoch111

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Any attempt to prove that the human spirit is also immortal falls spectacularly earthwards when one considers the only immortal God is essentially and eternally the only immortal Spirit, God being Spirit and all.
The application of the term *immortal* to the soul and spirit is actually a misnomer. Mortality and immortality pertain to the human body. And while at the present time only God has immortality, Scripture is also crystal clear that all the saints will be made immortal at the Resurrection/Rapture of the Church.

However the Bible is also crystal clear that all souls are IMPERISHABLE. Which means that they do not evaporate upon death, or become extinct, or non-existent. All souls went to Sheol/Hades until the resurrection of Christ. But after His resurrection, only the unsaved or unrighteous go to Hades. All the souls of God's saints go to Heaven. They do not *sleep* in graves as some churches erroneously teach. And there is plenty of Scripture to support this.

Since you are concerned about the truth Brakelite, why do you believe the lies about souls and immortality? Even the Eastern religions believe in the imperishability of the soul.
 
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brakelite

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Since you are concerned about the truth Brakelite, why do you believe the lies about souls and immortality? Even the Eastern religions believe in the imperishability of the soul.
Because the only basis for the belief in the dead not really being dead is a sermon from the father of lies..."ye shall not surely die...ye shall become as god/God….you shall live forever".
Like I said above, God is Spirit, and only God is immortal, thus God is the only immortal spirit. The redeemed are indeed given eternal life...but this is not the self-sustained immortality or natural immortality many believe it to be...like God's. Our eternal life will always be dependant on God's grace and on His power...which is why I am so detrmined to stand against the corrupt idea of sinners also receiving the same gift so that they can suffer forever in hell. Immortality comes as a gift at the resurrection Enoch...not a moment before, and it isn't ours naturally. That eastern religions all accept this lie ought to be a red flag for us all.
 

jimmiec

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It would appear that all the cults flourish while there is tremendous resistance to the truth and the true Gospel. Which again confirms that Satan is indeed "the god of this world".

Any "ism", socialism, Phariseeism=Judah-ism=fraud, Zionism, etc is a fraud, lie and anti Christ foolishness. "All "isms", religions are hated by God." KJV If it is not of God it is of the devil. "The Liar!" A lie. Two choices. The Prince of Darkness or the Prince of Peace. PTL ! Thank you Jesus!
 

aspen

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Those people are always happy. I wonder why they're happy. Are they happy because of what they believe? Say your miserable because of what you believe, should you believe something that makes you happy. But if their beliefs are really really wrong then why are they happy? Does my head in.

Um....not in my experience

They are paranoid about the government
Hateful towards the Catholic Church
Miserable about their chances for a decent Eternity...

Oh wait, you’re right, they do kinda sound like garden variety fundamentalists
Never mind.....
 

Nancy

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No Sir, was Baptised a Catholic, Though later in life decided to remain Neutral,
as to mix with all Men.
though J.W have shown more Love and Compassion
than any other Religion has, though i never discount a Human for
what ever they Follow, So long as they follow and try there best to live a Mirror Image
of Jesus's Teachings. It is Quiet Simple, unfortunately there is a Reverse force,
that Side tracks many of us from a Spiritual Journey.
Peace n Love.
Ian

I had some work done recently in my home. They were 2 Jehovah's Witnesses. I was taking bids on knocking out a wall. There was electric lines fed from basement right through the walls to my kitchen. When they first came, I told them I ws going to get 2 to 3 different bids as I rely on God to help me make the right decisions...that is when he introduced himself as a minister of the JW's. I almost fell over...did not know what to say! Bottom line, they at first said okay, how about we do it for $250.00!!! I was like, whaaaa?? So, I hired them but told them I thought 250 was too little for all the work needing to be done so, he said...okay, we'll take $500.00. I felt better giving them 500. They were here for days on end working very hard...no proselytizing at all and, they did not seem at all offended by my Christ sayings and Christians books I have lying around. Also had my Christian music station on so...they are pretty awesome IMHO...yet, cannot accept their doctrines.
 
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shnarkle

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Christ was a Son before the incarnation. The apostle John went to great pains to prove that Christ Jesus was the Son of God. The only begotten. Both in his gospel, and in the first two of his letters, John repeatedly exalted Christ as God's only Son. Yet not once, unlike the other gospel writers, did he mention Bethlehem...the incarnation...the wise men...the shepherds seeing angels...a stable...manger...or gifts. Nothing. If John was trying to prove Jesus was God's Son why not quote Micah and prove Jesus was born in Bethlehem and by done with it? Set and match. But no. John was not trying to prove Jesus was born a man...He was proving Christ's divinity. His divine heritage as a Son of the Almighty from before creation...and as you correctly say above, because He is from eternity the Son of the Father, then Jesus can be none other than fully divine, 100% deity. It is His Sonship that irrevocably proves His divinity...which unfortunately is denied in many peoples thinking as a result of blindly accepting the trinitarian perspective of the Godhead.

The reason there is no nativity scene in John's gospel is because God has no beginning. A monotheistic God can't have a beginning. It is our sonship that also proves our divinity, but seeing how the trinity works doesn't preclude one from seeing the divinity of Christ. The fullness of the godhead dwells within his body, and that is seen even today in the many membered body; the church.
 
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brakelite

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It is our sonship that also proves our divinity
I get very nervous when people start quoting the devil ...
KJV Genesis 3
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
...to validate their own aspirations.