WHY ARE MANY OF US STILL HERE?

[marks]

Since "bondage under the law" refers to one's attempt by obedience to obtain salvation,

On this point, I'd add there are many who claim that while we don't receive our salvation by works, we maintain it by works, or somehow add to it by works.

But if we're actually dead to the law as the Bible says we are, then the attempt to keep the law becomes dead works, from ourselves and not from the Holy Spirit.

God wants to direct us personally, having made us new.

There's no need to return to a law that was given to increase sin, and to make sin utterly sinful.

Much love!
mark

 

[Phoneman777]

So does Salvation by grace through faith, does it not? Extremely convenient!

???

But meanwhile, it's a Non Sequitor to say that because I believe God wants me here so I stay, therefore, I must also believe in keeping the 10 commandments.

I didn't say that at all. I'm saying WADR the reason you guys give for still being here sounds like bulldookey because you can't admit how inconsistent your reasoning seems to be, again WADR.

I obey Christ. I am dead to the law

Being dead to the law is not a license to break the law - it means you're dead to the idea of salvation by works, not the "good works which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." The seventh day Sabbath included.

Now. Who is your Levite that is within your gates? Have you given your 10th to him? Have you kept the feasts in Jerusalem? Where is your Levitical priest to whom you show your skin infections, offering the appropriate sacrifices?

Silly argument. Haven't you heard the "handwriting of ordinances that was against us" was nailed to the Cross?
Haven't you heard the "works of HIS HANDS...HIS COMMANDMENTS stand fast forever and ever?"
When you figure out a way to nail Stone Tablets to a wooden Cross without shattering them in pieces, I'll agree with you.

, God included this is His covenant of Law.

Know what else He included in His New Covenant? His Ten Commandments, which Paul says the "Spirit of the living God" writes on our hearts in 2 Corinthians 3:1-3.

Tell me . . . in Romans 7, as God uses the example of marriage to explain to us that we are "dead to the law", what does that phrase mean to you?

That Christians are not obligated to keep the Mosaic Law of the Old Covenant. However, I can show you over and over where the New Testament commands those who love Him to do that which God wrote on the tables of stone

 

[Phoneman777]

On this point, I'd add there are many who claim that while we don't receive our salvation by works, we maintain it by works, or somehow add to it by works.

But if we're actually dead to the law as the Bible says we are, then the attempt to keep the law becomes dead works, from ourselves and not from the Holy Spirit.

God wants to direct us personally, having made us new.

There's no need to return to a law that was given to increase sin, and to make sin utterly sinful.

Much love!
mark

Why do you Antinomianists get all fouled up in legalities - which makes you guys the true legalists - when it comes to a very simple issue?

Does a husband "maintain" or "add to" the marriage by not cheating on his wife?

Or is that which actually accomplishes the maintenance and growth of the marriage - love - made evident by his choice to not cheat on his wife?

The reason why people want to make cheating on God legal is because they don't love Him. Those of us who do love Him will fight on our hands and knees in the hour of temptation against the devil. By that, we evidence that we love Him (1 John 2:3-4).

 

[marks]

???
I didn't say that at all. I'm saying WADR the reason you guys give for still being here sounds like bulldookey because you can't admit how inconsistent your reasoning seems to be, again WADR.

Completely consistant.

The just shall live by faith. And that goes for everything.

The law states that he who does these shall live.

But we have something new, the just shall live by faith. He takes away the old to establish the new.

Being dead to the law is not a license to break the law - it means you're dead to the idea of salvation by works, not the "good works which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." The seventh day Sabbath included.

If you can show the keeping of the Sabbath as part of the works God hath before ordained then there would be that.

But that would be a different question than can I truly believe that God wants me here, and obey His wishes, and yet not claim to be bound by the 10 commandments as well. Or some other list of rules.

I suppose what's silly to me is to question this as even a matter of obedience.

Your presupposition is that anyone - everyone - would of course just suicide and go to heaven unless they were afraid to.

I'm not afraid of death. I've been close enough to it for that matter.

But I want to be here. I don't want to be in heaven yet. I have all of forever to enjoy the ages to come, why rush this? I want to be here! So I can care for my wife. So I can hopefully contribute to other's faith.

Your premise just doesn't apply. I know that there is no condemnation against me, and nothing can change that. God says it very plainly, in many ways. But it's just not good. To stay is good. Until it becomes time to go. Then, to go, however it is that God does it, it will be good.

Much love!
Mark

 

[Phoneman777]

Completely consistant.

The just shall live by faith. And that goes for everything.

The law states that he who does these shall live.

But we have something new, the just shall live by faith. He takes away the old to establish the new.



If you can show the keeping of the Sabbath as part of the works God hath before ordained then there would be that.

But that would be a different question than can I truly believe that God wants me here, and obey His wishes, and yet not claim to be bound by the 10 commandments as well. Or some other list of rules.

I suppose what's silly to me is to question this as even a matter of obedience.

Your presupposition is that anyone - everyone - would of course just suicide and go to heaven unless they were afraid to.

I'm not afraid of death. I've been close enough to it for that matter.

But I want to be here. I don't want to be in heaven yet. I have all of forever to enjoy the ages to come, why rush this? I want to be here! So I can care for my wife. So I can hopefully contribute to other's faith.

Your premise just doesn't apply. I know that there is no condemnation against me, and nothing can change that. God says it very plainly, in many ways. But it's just not good. To stay is good. Until it becomes time to go. Then, to go, however it is that God does it, it will be good.

Much love!
Mark

All I know is that Paul longed with painful longing to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord, but Paul knew that the Ten Commandments were God's will for him, as well as us. That's why he remained. As for you, I'm not so sure why you choose to remain if you truly believe we are free to live contrary to the Ten Commandments.

 

[charity]

All I know is that Paul longed with painful longing to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord, but Paul knew that the Ten Commandments were God's will for him, as well as us. That's why he remained. As for you, I'm not so sure why you choose to remain if you truly believe we are free to live contrary to the Ten Commandments.

'We are confident, I say,
and willing rather
to be absent from the body,
and to be present with the Lord.
Wherefore we labour,
that, whether present or absent,
we may be accepted of Him.
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ;
that every one may receive the things done in his body,
according to that he hath done,
whether it be good or bad.'
(2 Corinthians 5:8-10)

Hello there, @Phoneman777,

If you look at Paul's argument in the verses preceding the above, in 2 Corinthians 5, that you refer to in your entry #25. You will see that Paul's desire was not to be 'unclothed' as in death: but to be 'clothed upon' with life, resurrection life; but that requires resurrection, and the appearing of our God and Saviour. Paul could only be 'present with the Lord', if 'clothed upon' by life, by resurrection life: for this mortal must put on immortality (1 Cor. 15:53). This requires resurrection from the dead, at the appearing of our Great God and Saviour: which is now on a future day, of God's choosing; but had the potential to have taken place during Paul's lifetime, if Israel had repented, which they did not. This was what Paul hoped for: for then he would not have known the 'unclothed' state of 'death', but would indeed have been 'present with the Lord'.

* Man does not have an immortal soul: for only God has immortality (1 Tim.6:16). Our mortal body, must be replaced by a resurrection body (1 Cor.15:53), like unto Christ's own resurrection body, which was made up of flesh and bones, and not a 'spirit' (Luke 24:39).

* No! There is no 'life' apart from resurrection.

'For we know that if our earthly house
.. of this tabernacle
.... were dissolved,
...... we have a building of God,
........ an house not made with hands,
.......... eternal in the heavens.
For in this we groan,
.. earnestly desiring to be clothed upon
.... with our house which is from heaven:
If so be that being clothed
.. we shall not be found naked.
For we that are in this tabernacle do groan,
.. being burdened:
.... not for that we would be unclothed,
...... but clothed upon,
........ that mortality might be swallowed up of life.'
(2 Corinthians 5:1-4)

Praise His Holy Name!

With respect to you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Dave L]

If we view death biblically, those who die young suffer less in hell having less sin to pay for. And Christians go to heaven where Paul says it is better to be there than here.

 

[Waiting on him]

...Or, none of us are as keen on death as we pretend to be!

If we wanted to "be with Jesus" quickly...( many christians say glibly,..... " I can't wait for heaven"....
NOT TRUE....if this were true , no one would run to the doctor when they got sick, but they'd ask us all to pray that that we get worse and die!!! LOL

I’m betwixt the two

 

[brakelite]

we just honor it the way God intends and not the way the law says.

Are you suggesting that God wasn't sure how to express Himself so what was written ended up contradicting what He meant?

Most of us are striving to live a life that God will approve of

Which is the very reason you fail.

But if we're actually dead to the law as the Bible says we are, then the attempt to keep the law becomes dead works, from ourselves and not from the Holy Spirit.

The thing is, by going to the old auto-default accusation of "legalism" don't you exclude the possibility that believers can, by faith through grace, receive such power as is needed to keep the law just as God intended? Or perhaps you agree with Trekson above, that it isn't God's intention that we keep His commandments as written?

The just shall live by faith. And that goes for everything.

Precisely...as I suggest above...but when it comes to obedience, such faith is deemed heretical by many at worst, and legalist at best. Christians claim and agree that the work of the holy Spirit is to change us into the image of Christ, but whenever it is suggested that such an image includes obedience to the laws of God, just as Jesus was obedient to the laws of God, that "image" becomes somewhat blurred and fogged up.

 

[charity]

1) If we view death biblically, those who die young suffer less in hell having less sin to pay for.
2) And Christians go to heaven where Paul says it is better to be there than here.

Hello @Dave L,

What 'Biblical' reference can you give to support what you maintain here, regarding either point one or two?

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Trekson]

Are you suggesting that God wasn't sure how to express Himself so what was written ended up contradicting what He meant?

There is nothing I believe about the sabbath that contradicts what God said but God has a plan that is revealed in stages, we recognize that but others get stuck in the past and don't see that others are keeping up God's plan.

Which is the very reason you fail.

If you say you never fail and never sin, then I will say you are a liar.

The thing is, by going to the old auto-default accusation of "legalism" don't you exclude the possibility that believers can, by faith through grace, receive such power as is needed to keep the law just as God intended? Or perhaps you agree with Trekson above, that it isn't God's intention that we keep His commandments as written?

Besides the day of the week, which I believe that every day to a christian is the sabbath, how exactly do you think we ignore the law? and no noone, even with grace is able to keep the whole law as written. If we could, than Christ wouldn't have been necessary. The law was intended to show us that we are all sinners incapable of keeping the whole law and that is why we needed the salvation that only Christ's blood could purchase. If God honestly thought and expected man to keep the whole law, He never would have set up a sacrificial system in the first place, but He did because he knew we were incapable of keeping it and needed a way to cover our inevitable sins. The point could be raised that the law, at the time, was for Israel only.

Precisely...as I suggest above...but when it comes to obedience, such faith is deemed heretical by many at worst, and legalist at best. Christians claim and agree that the work of the holy Spirit is to change us into the image of Christ, but whenever it is suggested that such an image includes obedience to the laws of God, just as Jesus was obedient to the laws of God, that "image" becomes somewhat blurred and fogged up.

Jesus lived and taught under the law to become the only man to have lived a perfect life making him the only one worthy to be sacrificed on the rest of humanity's behalf. Paul was tasked with teaching us how to live a godly life now that the law had been fulfilled and completed. That doesn't mean it disappears just that the sacrifice for our sins is eternal. The laws are written in our hearts as the new covenant describes so nothing becomes "fogged" up, quite the contrary, for those who are set free from the law see things in a much clearer light. Take off the shades bro and come join us in the light.

 

[Dave L]

Hello @Dave L,

What 'Biblical' reference can you give to support what you maintain here, regarding either point one or two?

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Will There Be Degrees of Judgment in Hell? See for degrees of suffering.

Paul said; “But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.” (Philippians 1:22–24) (KJV 1900)

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

It is interesting how few people remember that Jesus said, 'If, if You Love Me. YOU will keep my commands.'
Strangely Jesus's commands include the 10 commandments.

True Christians routinely surpass the requirements of the Ten Commandments. Nowhere in the Ten Commandments are we told that by just looking at another with lust in our hearts, that we have committed what amounts to adultery--although the argument could be made that we are violating the requirement to refrain from coveting. But, we are also never told in the Ten Commandments to love our enemies and pray for them. Yet, that is what Jesus asks us to do. Why should a holy God permit us into His heaven when we treat His moral requirements with contempt? Those who truly love the Lord understand that the commandments were given for our good and thank Him for them.

 

[Waiting on him]

True Christians routinely surpass the requirements of the Ten Commandments. Nowhere in the Ten Commandments are we told that by just looking at another with lust in our hearts, that we have committed what amounts to adultery--although the argument could be made that we are violating the requirement to refrain from coveting. But, we are also never told in the Ten Commandments to love our enemies and pray for them. Yet, that is what Jesus asks us to do. Why should a holy God permit us into His heaven when we treat His moral requirements with contempt?

Maybe what is lacking is Spiritual discernment??

 

[Waiting on him]

Will There Be Degrees of Judgment in Hell? See for degrees of suffering.

Paul said; “But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.” (Philippians 1:22–24) (KJV 1900)

I believe many people are unable to see beyond the flesh

 

[Waiting on him]

I will never leave nor forsake you. What is the you?

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Maybe what is lacking is Spiritual discernment??

Yes, I think you are right. To please Him, we must abide in the True Vine (by reading and studying our Bibles, praying and doing good out of our love for Him). We gain spiritual discernment as we live and love in Him. Walk in the Spirit.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

I will never leave nor forsake you. What is the you?

Jesus never left nor forsook His followers and He will never leave nor forsake us. But those who truly love Him will desire to please Him by refraining from evil. Everything that is not done in faith is evil.

 

[Windmillcharge]

Reduced to two, Matt. 22:36-40.

Which as you know are Jesus's summing up of the 10 commandments.

 

[Windmillcharge]

True Christians routinely surpass the requirements of the Ten Commandments. Nowhere in the Ten Commandments are we told that by just looking at another with lust in our hearts, that we have committed what amounts to adultery--although the argument could be made that we are violating the requirement to refrain from coveting. But, we are also never told in the Ten Commandments to love our enemies and pray for them. Yet, that is what Jesus asks us to do. Why should a holy God permit us into His heaven when we treat His moral requirements with contempt? Those who truly love the Lord understand that the commandments were given for our good and thank Him for them.

The surmon on the mount is a sadly ignored part of Jesus's esential teaching.
Everything you've commented on was covered by Jesus.

May I suggest that you ask your preacher to preach on this forgotten passage. Suggest that he deals wit it as a series over 6 months of sundays or longer.