Christ vs the anti-Christ: Who is winning?

[Jane_Doe22]

For you to have a living hope, you need to;
1] care about truth

2] Understand the biblical Jesus

3] Leave the false teachings of the liar Joseph Smith

4] Come to Jesus savingly.....the biblical Jesus, part of the trinity.

Do YOU don't care about truth?
*I* do yes. I extremely care about truth. that's why I take the time to listen to other people and get the facts straight about what they believe-- even if it's something I PASSIONATELY disagree with and find completely unbiblical. That's why I take the time and stick my head our to defend people who are being misrepresented, such as yourself during those idiotic "Calvinism is a cult" threads. I'm not of fan of when people purposefully ignore information or degrade to personal attacks. I am OCD truthful.

 

[brakelite]

People are offended that God is God.
People are offended by other peoples' misapprehension of who God is. None would be offended if they knew Who He truly is.
And no, people get offended when other people play God. When other people, pretending to be His representatives, point their collective fingers at others and proclaim them as being condemned, cultic, unconverted, un Christian. Yet Jesus came not to condemn the world, but to lay His life down for many. If God chooses some to salvation, and others to condemnation, what is that to you that you would bother to come here to preach that some here are converted, and some not? As if that changes anything, or by our agreeing with you (or disagreeing) we can alter our destiny?
What if I, being an Adventist, should of a sudden say, "Goodness! You are correct!!! I am in a cult, therefore not saved. Woe is me!!" To what purpose would such a confession avail me? Apart from etching a notch on your own belt of self righteousness, how could such a confession affect my destiny if my decisions for or against God are meaningless? Why bother??? Even if I should fall to my knees in total repentance and surrender, confessing my helplessness and poverty, my complete depravity and incapability to make even a right decision without Him, and plead for His mercy and grace, what would any of that avail me if God has already predestined me to hell? Would all that repentance, no matter how sincere and honest, if God has decided to condemn, nothing more that a human work in futility to gain salvation?
Now of course you may respond and say, that if a person has indeed done all of that, then it is because God has indeed elected him to be saved, and he therefore is saved. And his confession was simply the fruit of God's work upon his life. Right? But how do you know that there aren't people within certain churches you personally disapprove of, that have done precisely that, and God is in the very process of delivering them from those churches? Unless you somehow can prove that they are saved only once they come out, then they are Christians, despite their current allegiances are they not? After all, if God didn't have His own people, saved and secure, yet in Babylon, why would He be calling them out?

 

[CoreIssue]

^This is not what you are dong.

You have been given TONS of bad information about what "Mormons" believe and act. It is GROSSLY inaccurate.
None of that^ is your fault.

But when you come to me, on one hand saying how you believe truth is so important to you, but on the other hand clinging to all this bad information and shunning anything else. It really defeats your own position. Add to that the continual blind personal attacks, it really gives the impression you don't care about truthfulness at all, and that you're very insecure about what it is you do believe.

Again, I don't remotely hold you believing unknowingly given bad information against you. I try to approach this conversation with patience and kindness. I love talking about Christ, people's beliefs, and anything rejoicing about faith. But your behavior here is... honestly I find it very silly. You can do it if you want- that is your right. But that only solidifies my perception of it.

The only one pushing false claims here is you.

I posted a link in the mormon thread to mormon scriptures and official documents. But instead of commenting on them you are denying what others post that are part of the documents.

You even tried to claim the book of mormon is not considered scripture on the level of the old and new testament. Yet it is called a testament within your own church. And the official documents stated it is.

And you'll actually believe you can persuade others to accept your claims.

 

[amadeus]

Any one reading the bible gains value if they have an open mind.

Do you really believe that simply an open mind is enough? Do you see no difference between and open mind and an open heart?

The holy spirit leads us to deeper understanding of the bible.

Not just a deeper understanding, but any understanding that is ultimately meaningful to God.

No one is quickened by the holy spirit until born again.

And what is the difference between the quickening of the Holy Spirit and the restoration of David's soul as per:

"He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake." Psalm 23:3

And what of this?

"So will not we go back from thee: quicken us, and we will call upon thy name." Psalm 80:18

Were those psalm writers born again or simply touched by the power of the Holy Spirit hundreds of years before Jesus was born to Mary and before the outpouring of the Holy Spirit of Acts 2?

 

[amadeus]

Loads of compromise, drivel, false accusations, assumptions, pragmatism, fabrications, failure to endure sound doctrine, patronizing, failure to understand the Gospel, and a huge lack of mature biblical discernment in the above.

Obviously you don't know the Gospel of Christ or true conversion yourself.[/QUOTE]
Does that mean you don't understand the God's message to men? I am praying for you.

 

[CoreIssue]

Do you really believe that simply an open mind is enough? Do you see no difference between and open mind and an open heart?


Not just a deeper understanding, but any understanding that is ultimately meaningful to God.


And what is the difference between the quickening of the Holy Spirit and the restoration of David's soul as per:

"He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake." Psalm 23:3

And what of this?

"So will not we go back from thee: quicken us, and we will call upon thy name." Psalm 80:18

Were those psalm writers born again or simply touched by the power of the Holy Spirit hundreds of years before Jesus was born to Mary and before the outpouring of the Holy Spirit of Acts 2?

The point is pentecostalism carries some things to extremes the bible does not support.

Yes, the holy spirit is critical to us but the bible also tells us we are responsible for studying and learning using our old god given abilities.

Such as tonques. The bible says it is a lesser gift but Pentecostals make it sound like everything revolves around it.

Most assuredly we need an open heart and an open mind. But we're not to defend false doctrine and false Christ such as the Mormons have.

I pray every day to Christ, not the holy spirit. I understand god answers via the holy spirit.

The bible says look to Christ, not always even knowing the critical role the holy spirit.

Maybe you don't see it but you talk about the holy spirit more than talk about Christ.

Sorry if that sounds harsh, what I felt it needed to be said.

 

[tzcho2]

I'm sorry that this offends you, but the sources you have gotten information from gave you really bad info. I am OCD honest, and hence need to say that. I don't say it to assault the personal character of these persons, I find that many of these people have no idea the information is bad and are honestly have good intentions in sharing it. But it's still bad info.

If it "destroys my credibility" to be honest, I really can't help your perception that way. And since you started this conversation (with zero prior information about me) already declaring me a liar, deceived, etc, really don't think this "loss of creditably" has anything to actually do with me. Rather it's more that you're just prejudging based on labels (which are based on said false information), and there's nothing I can do about. So I really just don't care. I'm just going to continue being OCD truthful.

I'm not the least bit offended. I'm tired of the denial & dishonesty concerning Mormonism-- that's what loses credibility. You have continued to ignore repeated requests to answer direct questions. So just nevermind.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I'm not the least bit offended. I'm tired of the denial & dishonesty concerning Mormonism-- that's what loses credibility. You have continued to ignore repeated requests to answer direct questions. So just nevermind.

I have answered every question 100% truthfully. If there's some question you feel I have not fully answered, I will address it again to the upmost truthfulness.


I canNOT say "I hate Christ" because that would be false. Christ is my Lord and Savior. I canNOT denounce my discipleship of Him.
I canNOT say "I hate the Bible" because that would be false. I love every word, read it cover to cover and regularly study.
I canNOT say "I worship Joseph Smith" because that would be false.

Again, I'm OCD truthful.

 

[brakelite]

But we're not to defend false doctrine and false Christ such as the Mormons have.

@tzcho2 @Preacher4Truth and anyone else here....
I agree. The Mormon church promotes a Christ that is not related to the Christ of the Bible. LDS promote a God that bears no or little relation to the God of the Bible. The plan of salvation for the Mormon of necessity must include duties and certain rituals that need to be performed for one to be selected for the ultimate reward. The Book of Mormon is nonsense. A fairy tale.
BUT...…..
let us not preclude the power of the true God who is merciful, gracious and true to His own word, that He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. So when we meet someone who claims to have turned away from sin, repented of their lifestyle of rebellion against God, recognise that Christ paid the price for their redemption, and believe that according to His promises they are therefore justified by grace, then who are we to say to such..."nah! You don't know Him. Your Christ is a false Christ. " Be very careful when calling Christ false. You simply do not know that the Christ they have faith in is not the true Christ, and is in fact in the very process of delivering that child of His from the snares of deception. I do not think God appreciates our human fallible judgements as to who is saved, who is not saved, based on the circumstances and place where He called them. People are not saved or unsaved based on their church/denomination etc. I think you may find that many will be saved despite their denominational affiliations.
Now, by all means bring light to the errors of churches that you believe are leading people astray. But you need to be specific. Shotgun blasts from 200 meters away are useless. I see a lot of that here. They shouldn't hold a firearms licence...they could be hitting anything. "You belong to a cult" is meaningless unless you, with plenty of detail and a depth of understanding, explain why it is an error. Saying something is error, and leaving it at that, is not going to convince anyone. And when the person you are sharing with says, "Oh, I don't believe that", then you say Praise the Lord. If they should say, "My church doesn't teach that", then ask, what does your church teach then? Because from what I have read in your own manuals, it certainly appears to be the case> Can you explain why I misunderstand you?" Now such calls for patience. And sincerity. If you are truly intent on bringing light and truth to someone's life, then you will follow through such an inquiry to the end. Otherwise you are just exalting your own knowledge to satisfy ego. Roundly condemning individuals is fraught with danger as you may find yourself doing the devil's work and discourage others from searching for truth. But of course you Calvinists don't care huh, because you can say anything you like and if God chooses to save someone, then nothing you say or do will make a difference right?

 

[Jane_Doe22]

@tzcho2 @Preacher4Truth and anyone else here....
I agree. The Mormon church promotes a Christ that is not related to the Christ of the Bible. LDS promote a God that bears no or little relation to the God of the Bible. The plan of salvation for the Mormon of necessity must include duties and certain rituals that need to be performed for one to be selected for the ultimate reward. The Book of Mormon is nonsense. A fairy tale.
BUT...…..
let us not preclude the power of the true God who is merciful, gracious and true to His own word, that He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. So when we meet someone who claims to have turned away from sin, repented of their lifestyle of rebellion against God, recognise that Christ paid the price for their redemption, and believe that according to His promises they are therefore justified by grace, then who are we to say to such..."nah! You don't know Him. Your Christ is a false Christ. " Be very careful when calling Christ false. You simply do not know that the Christ they have faith in is not the true Christ, and is in fact in the very process of delivering that child of His from the snares of deception. I do not think God appreciates our human fallible judgements as to who is saved, who is not saved, based on the circumstances and place where He called them. People are not saved or unsaved based on their church/denomination etc. I think you may find that many will be saved despite their denominational affiliations.
Now, by all means bring light to the errors of churches that you believe are leading people astray. But you need to be specific. Shotgun blasts from 200 meters away are useless. I see a lot of that here. They shouldn't hold a firearms licence...they could be hitting anything. "You belong to a cult" is meaningless unless you, with plenty of detail and a depth of understanding, explain why it is an error. Saying something is error, and leaving it at that, is not going to convince anyone. And when the person you are sharing with says, "Oh, I don't believe that", then you say Praise the Lord. If they should say, "My church doesn't teach that", then ask, what does your church teach then? Because from what I have read in your own manuals, it certainly appears to be the case> Can you explain why I misunderstand you?" Now such calls for patience. And sincerity. If you are truly intent on bringing light and truth to someone's life, then you will follow through such an inquiry to the end. Otherwise you are just exalting your own knowledge to satisfy ego. Roundly condemning individuals is fraught with danger as you may find yourself doing the devil's work and discourage others from searching for truth. But of course you Calvinists don't care huh, because you can say anything you like and if God chooses to save someone, then nothing you say or do will make a difference right?

*thumbs up for good and honest conversation/learning methodology*

 

[brakelite]

Do you really believe that simply an open mind is enough?

Don't want to open the mind so much that everything falls out.

 

[mjrhealth]

"piece of steak in a cage of vultures" -- I like that phrasing!

I totally 100% agree with you that a person's faith/relationship with Christ is the most important thing and should trump all else. I disagree with the "Christ vs religion" paradigm though.

Something to do with this

1Co 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
1Co 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
1Co 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

its that paint thingy, you join your self to a religion you will become like your religion, you join yourself to Christ you will become like Christ.. not that hard.

 

[bbyrd009]

With Moses the best many will ever do is be hidden in the cleft of a rock and view his hinder parts. Until they are ready, will not more vision than that kill them? If we do not progress from through a glass darkly to face to face, what is our final result likely to be?

Wow, never saw that, awesome

 

[bbyrd009]

Is not the most effective witness a person can give to be found in his very own life from day to day, 24 hours per day and 7 days per week?

Time for an aeon change I guess huh? I've always searched that NT, lookie what I found OT A;
Deuteronomy 33:27 Lexicon: "The eternal God is a dwelling place, And underneath are the everlasting arms; And He drove out the enemy from before you, And said, 'Destroy!'
qedem: front, east, formerly
Transliteration: qedem
Definition: front, east, formerly
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from an unused word
Definition
front, east, formerly
NASB Translation
ancient (4), ancient times (3), before (1), before his of old (1), earliest times (1), East (1), east (26), east side (1), eastward (1), eternal (1), everlasting (1), formerly (1), forward (1), gone (1), long ago (1), old (16), times* (2).

Ha is that a hoot or what? Guess I gotta find em all now
Note "30" times for east

Links
Interlinear Greek • Interlinear Hebrew • Strong's Numbers • Englishman's Greek Concordance • Englishman's Hebrew Concordance • Parallel Texts

 

[bbyrd009]

Pointing out another person's supposed errors based on our own supposedly absolute knowledge may be found to be NOT according to our calling from God.

man, sure destroys my MO lol. I'm just realizing my place in Eves convo with Satan, yikes. Ty. Ouch tho.

 

[bbyrd009]

And when exactly was it that things were better among men than they are now?

indeed

Has not the same problem of men been in continuous existence since Adam and Eve disobeyed God?

hmm, dunno, now we have time to be bored?
lol

 

[bbyrd009]

You are errantly assuming that a "Mormon" = disciple of Joseph Smith.
Not the case.
I am a disciple of Jesus Christ, a Christian. I attend church at the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Joseph Smith is not the foundation of my life.

I know this contradicts all the junk you've been told "Mormons" believe.

certainly does for me, could you expand on this any, is there a strict division in Mormonism? Ty

 

[amadeus]

Actually , the Bible testifies of Itself that it is not dead but it is Living & Active. There is a reason it is called Holy scripture, it is God-breathed after all, and it testifies to itself through Paul's writings. The Holy Spirit is the author of the Word.

I agree that the words in the Bible were written by men inspired [led by the Holy Spirit] to do so. But what it took it put the message from God down on paper is also required for another person to receive that message. When a person receives the interpretation of what he reads or hears from the written scriptures from the Holy Spirit then it is also understood by him. This is why Apostle Paul writes:

"Quench not the Spirit." I Thess 5:19

People in the Spirit understand the things of God, but people let themselves or pull themselves out of or away from the guidance of the Spirit and add confusion to truth and the result is a terrible mess as we can see in the multitudes of denominations claiming to have God's truth based on the same Bibles. We see that here also on this forum between people who argue for their own doctrines versus the doctrines supported by other believers... even as you and I see things differently on the present issue. But only God gives the increase:

"I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase." I Cor 3:6-7

2 Tim 3: 16 "16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction , for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 So that the man of God may be complete, fully equipped for every good work...."

Certainly, that is why the Bible is useful, but without the Holy Spirit quickening it in a person it remains dead on the cross, that is unresurrected:

"[God] Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." II Cor 2:3

It is not only dead, but dangerous when used unquickened. This is why lazy Christians who do not continuously surrender to God so as to always be in the Spirit may be hurt by atheists well versed in the dead scriptures.

Hebrews 4:12 "12 For the Word of GOD is Living and Active. Sharper then Any Double-edged sword, Sharper than Any Double-edged sword, It Pierces Even To Dividing the Soul and Spirit, Joints and marrow. IT JUDGES the THOUGHTS and INTENTIONS of the Heart. "

Yes, but the Word of God as it is written is dormant without power while it remains in the book alone. The Word of God is what Jesus always spoke. When we are in the Spirit, then we also may speak the Word of God from that which we have consumed [read or studied]. As I said a smart sincere atheist can out maneuver a lazy Christian. The Christian does not have to be smart or well educated to defeat a devil, but he must be yielded to the Holy Spirit. God loses no battles. We do when we presume even on yesterday's victory instead of simply leaning today on God.

1 Corinthians 2:9-13: "But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: ...Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual." (KJV)

Again the key is not to ever "quench the Spirit"...

1 Thessalonians 2:13: "For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe."
(KJV)

When we receive the Word of God is it through the Holy Spirit. People often feel the joy of the Lord and the wonder of that intial touch from God and presume they can walk on alone from there... They cannot.

"Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" Gal 3:3

 

[amadeus]

indeed

hmm, dunno, now we have time to be bored?
lol

We can be bored in the flesh or absorbed in the flesh... or we can simply yield always to the Holy Spirit of God. Probably most people most of the time are immersed in the first two. How many called Christian are always yielded to God? How much mercy will God have for them? Is there not a limit... such as when there is "time no longer"?

People will often speak of the end of time for everything, but without considering that, is there not an end of time for each person of flesh?

 

[amadeus]

The point is pentecostalism carries some things to extremes the bible does not support.

This is the same kind of generalizing that many people do against people of great or even slight differences in belief. I know I've been guilty on this myself, but God is still working on me.

Yes, the holy spirit is critical to us but the bible also tells us we are responsible for studying and learning using our old god given abilities.

We are certainly to do all that we can, but our very best without the Holy Spirit is what?

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8-9

Such as tonques. The bible says it is a lesser gift but Pentecostals make it sound like everything revolves around it.

Don't jump to too many conclusions based on what you have read or heard but not personally experienced. Simply get behind God and let Him lead you and you will not go astray. I believe in tongues and I speak in tongues, but that is something that God has given me. I don't speak for everyone:

"Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?" I Cor 12:30

Most assuredly we need an open heart and an open mind. But we're not to defend false doctrine and false Christ such as the Mormons have.

So believe that their doctrine is false if that is what you believe God has shown you, but until you are walking always [24/7] in the Spirit, do not presume that everyone else is or should be on the same page with you.

I pray every day to Christ, not the holy spirit. I understand god answers via the holy spirit.

I simply talk to God daily and sometimes I will specifically mention the name of Jesus as the Spirit leads me. See below...

The bible says look to Christ, not always even knowing the critical role the holy spirit.

Maybe you don't see it but you talk about the holy spirit more than talk about Christ.

Sorry if that sounds harsh, what I felt it needed to be said.

Harsh? To me it indicates that perhaps you do not understand an important role of the Holy Spirit in believers. Jesus is our Head:

"For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body." Eph 5:23

We on the other hand are the rest of the Body of Christ. This corresponds to the carnal body of a man with the head being in charge of the rest and in contact with the rest by means of the red blood which carries out the wastes and carries in the nourishment. The head of the carnal man issues the orders and the bodily parts are to obey.

The spiritual connection between us and our Head [Jesus] is the spiritual blood [not red as in Edom but white as in purified to be of God]. This is a difference between a physical body of a man and the spiritual Body of Christ. Without the Holy Spirit, there is no blood and therefore no Life because we are disconnected from He who should be our real Head: Jesus.