Removed, not hand lifted.
The lawless one is not lawlesness.
So...your whole argument relies on the fact that the restrainer must be taken completely out of this world. Done. Gone. Absoulute? And you are arguing for it to be the HS because he is omnipresent?
Are you not seeing how this just doesn't work? The HS IS God. God IS omnipresent. Even if we say that the restrainer didn't just lift restraint upon one person, which is doubtable anyway, how is he going to limit his presence to not be everywhere? Yes, of course we could say that he chooses to 'retire' in some way from earth for this time. Just as Christ chose not to make use of his divinity while in the incarnation. However, if you are hanging your argument on MUSTS and on NATURES, then these things do not fit. It falls back onto God and his will and his purposes. In which case, we're back to, well...what the passage actually says and not just suppositions.
The text says that lawlessness is already in this world. This is obvious to us. It also says that the restrainer (no identity given) is "restraining him (AC, also no identity given) now, so that him may be revealed in his time". Paul is telling us that the lawlessness that is needed to produce such a man already exists. If it were not for this 'restrainer', the man of sin would have come forward before his time.
The intent of the text is clear. A single man, for a single purpose. There is no need for the restrainer to be omnipresent or omnipowerful...only that he be given that authority by one who is.
But even if this task of restraining IS given to the HS, the idea that to do this task, he must 'retreat' from the earth, and therefore take all christians with him, is totally nonsensical and far beyond anything any text will grant you. I invite you to put any forth if you can find any.
It does not deny it.
The task does require it.
Really? How so? Let's 'compare notes'. In Revelation 20 one angel binds Satan. The big kahuna. But still, just one being for one purpose. In 2 Thess 2 we are told that the 'restrainer' is restraining the 'lawless one'...who comes under the power of Satan. So...he's not even Satan himself. Still only one being at one time.
By biblical precedent, it seems to me that an angel could be the restrainer. If you can show me from the passage that this 'task' HAS to require this omnipresence you seem to think it does, then go for it, but just claiming it does doesn't cut it.
Was anyone born again in the OT in the flesh? No.
Okay, firstly, we know that the Spirit was mightily active and present in the OT:
Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look. -1 Peter 1:10–12
For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. -2 Peter 1:21
“Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke beforehand by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus. -Acts 1:16
Secondly, the bible outright tells us that while the OT saints did not know the identity of Christ, in whom they were saved, they still put their faith in God and his 'promised one' (Gen 3:14-19) and that was credited to them as righteousness.
just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”? -Galatians 3:6
What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” -Romans 4:1–3
That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, -Romans 4:16
But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification. -Romans 4:23–25
It is impossible not to see how the bible is interweaving how Abraham was given salvation (by faith and grace) and how we are. How does the bible tell us we have faith?
For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. -Romans 12:3
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. -Ephesians 2:8–9
Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith—just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”? -Galatians 3:5–6
Again and again we are pointed to faith and grace in our salvation. And likewise Paul points us continually back to Abraham and shows how Abraham was not saved by his works, or by being under the law. Why? Because the law was a diagnosis tool. It showed sin. It showed the need for the promised one in Gen 3. But, we are told, Abraham was 'counted righteous' even before he circumcised himself. The Spirit was working mightily in the OT. Perhaps in a different way than in the NT with the new covenant, but it was still very present.
If you are attempting to say that the Spirit will again, work in the same way as it did in the OT, during the Tribulation period, fine, that's one thing. I don't see any real scripture supporting it, but it's not totally off the wall. But trying to point to the OT as support to say that the Spirit will not be present at all in the Tribulation period, and no one will be saved at all...well...I'm sorry, but you have way too many bible verses stacked against you. Way too many.
Spirits in heaven will give glory.
kept from trial, not through it... Rapture.
I don't deny that 'spirits' in heaven will give glory. There are plenty of bible verses in Revelation that say so. But there are no verses that say the HS will vacate the premises, so to speak, or that all Christians, or 'Saints' will as well.
Kept from trial, not through it? Have you read the NT? Jesus repeatedly warns that people who follow him will walk through trial after trial. There is a single reference in Revelation to being "kept from the hour of trial coming on the whole world to try those who dwell upon the earth". Two things here: first, those who think this passage means "get out of jail free", seem to miss the letter to those in Smyrna, who will have to endure "ten days of tribulation". Where they not good enough to be "kept from" trial?
Secondly, as I'm sure I've already pointed out to you, every single time we see the phrase "those who dwell on the earth" in Revelation it is speaking of evil doers and those who deny God. In that context, yes, God IS keeping his own from the trial that is coming to every unsaved person who dwells on the whole earth. We know that...we need not fear the second death, or even the first one. Or, as Jesus tells the Church in Smyrna about their 10 days of tribulation, "be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life". In the face of such a promise, what have we to fear?
Still Christians in the Trib. "Saints" equal Christians. Check NT...rife with it. And, well...a flock of Christians equals the church.
You are tring to deny the Rapture.
I know to Dispensationalists that's akin to mounting a goats head on my door. But actually, I'm not denying the Rapture. In fact, I'm rather looking forward to it. Just because I don't see the bible describing it happening when you do doesn't mean I'm denying the Rapture. Strawman argument.
