The Coming Great Apostasy

[Earburner]

It is a commonly used expression even to this day that "sitting" refers to "authority" as in "a sitting President" which doesn't mean "sitting down" but means "in charge".

If ever there was a description of one who is "large and in charge" it is that of the Man of Sin papal Antichrist which ruled over the lives of men as the professed "Vicar of Christ" for over a thousand years during the great period of apostasy where every stripe and type of paganism was dragged into the Christian church and baptized as "holy".

 

[Earburner]

You are lost in your religious belief in system.

 

[Earburner]

OK, Jesus is lying and the Mac daddy is telling the truth. I'm done.

The "little horn" ROSE FROM the 3RD BEAST of the Grecian Empire, and performed the AoD, as recorded BY JEWISH HISTORY (1&2 Maccabees), of which is traditionally kept by the Jews as Hanukkah!!

 

[Earburner]

You all cannot discern the difference between prophecy and type vs. anti type.
WHEN are you going to think with God's Mind and NOT your own?? Isa. 55:8-9
.
Both Jesus and the Jews knew that by the FOREKNOWLEDGE of God, the AoD had already taken place, through the typical battles of men.
Jesus only referenced that PAST event as a TYPE (foreshadow), and therefore was applying it as ANTI TYPE (the true), to what the 70 weeks prophesied, of what God was going to do to Jerusalem!
.
Jesus' mentioning of the AoD, was now going to take place as ANTI TYPE by God's Hand, according to the 70 weeks DETERMINED [by God] upon thy people and upon thy holy city,... Dan. 9:24-27
Read it!!
But know this, the word "he" in verse 27 is speaking of THE MESSIAH (Jesus' first appearance), and not Titus or anyone else!!
Go and RE-Learn your Daniel!!

 

[Davy]

I think you're missing the main point: Irenaeus may have believed the temple in which the Antichrist would sit was a literal temple, but the fact is that he believed that just after the fall of Pagan Rome into the ten horn divisions, the "Little horn" Antichrist would arise among those ten. Therefore, he believed that the Little Horn could not rise because the Roman Empire was preventing that while it ruled over the land.

He certainly didn't believe a period of almost 2,000 years would go by after the fall of Rome without the rise of Antichrist.

He, like all the ECFs, believed that the Antichrist would arise on the heels of the fall of the Roman Empire, which is the Protestant Historicist view, not the error of Jesuit Futurism's view.

No, I'm right on... the point. And once again the point is that Apostle Paul in 2 Thess.2:3-4 meant a LITERAL temple in Jerusalem, and not some spiritual temple idea that pope haters want it to mean.

Irenaeus in his OWN words taught this also, interpreted it that very way, but you tried to post some man's opinion that was against what Irenaeus said, proving that you are on an agenda to discredit the early Church fathers like Irenaeus!

That reveals you are not to be trusted.

 

[mjrhealth]

Yes, Antinomianists freely cover themselves in that which made necessary the suffering and death of our dear Lord while proclaiming "Freedom in Christ to cover myself it this filth!"

If Christs righteousness is filth, says much of what you think of Him.

 

[ScottA]

In 2 Thessalonians 2, Apostle Paul taught of the event of "a falling away" that is to happen first, prior to our Lord Jesus' coming and gathering of the Church.

2 Thess 2:3-4
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
KJV

The Greek word is apostasia (Strong's no. 646) and it's where our English word apostasy comes from. It means to forsake what one held to, becoming an apostate. And the object of the cause Apostle Paul gives is the worship of that false one, the "man of sin" and his sitting in the temple of God exalting himself over all that is called God or that is worshiped, i.e., the very sin that Satan did in the beginning.

That falling away to worship that false one instead is Paul's real subject in that chapter, and is what the "strong delusion" is that he speaks of in verse 11...

2 Thess 2:11-12
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
KJV

Paul's first warning there again was what? "Let no man deceive you by any means:". Deceive you into what? Into falling away to worship that coming false one by his working of all power of signs and lying wonders per verse 9. Those signs and wonders were another warning our Lord Jesus gave about the coming pseudo-Christ in Matthew 24:23-26. He warned the Church again through Apostle John in Revelation 13:11-14 about the "another beast" that will come working miracles and make fire come to down on earth in the sight of men.

So what is the "lie" that Paul said God is sending the unrighteous? It is the lie of that false one coming to Jerusalem to play Messiah, and by the power of miracles he will be given to perform, it will cause many brethren to fall away in false worship to him as God, instead of waiting on our Lord Jesus' coming afterwards to destroy him with the 'spirit of His mouth', as per verse 8.

Thus that great falling away is NOT yet happened today. It is hard-linked to the time of that coming false one exalting himself as Messiah in Jerusalem.

Did not the fall happen in the beginning?
Do not many since the very day anti-Christ was announced, look to the temple of the flesh for Christ to return again, though he has already enter into the glory of the Father, whom is spirit?

Why then do you look to the future?

The lie...is that the flesh does profit. But it does not.

 

[bbyrd009]

The book of Daniel reveals in Daniel's visions and the interpretations by the angels, that "horns" are symbolic of kings and/kingdoms WITHIN an Empire (beast).

yes, and we rush to apply those literally when they may have a different and much better application imo, not saying that they don't also work on that level ok. The kingdom is within you, and the empire is within you to maybe, something like that

 

[bbyrd009]

If Christs righteousness is filth, says much of what you think of Him.

no it doesn't mjr, Pm was discussing a concept and not accusing anyone specifically--maybe one of these days I'll learn that lol--and you are completely ignoring his point to talk about him and accuse him ok, and I guess I don't even need to say why huh.

So no offense but I have to witness for Pm here

 

[Earburner]

yes, and we rush to apply those literally when they may have a different and much better application imo, not saying that they don't also work on that level ok. The kingdom is within you, and the empire is within you to maybe, something like that

Dan. 7[3] And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
[17] These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
The vision given to Daniel, is in the symbolism of four great beasts that come upon the sea. However, the angel interprets as the earth
But why the confusion?
Ans. One view is from the vision of Daniel, in his OWN words. The other view is from the angel, who interprets the vision by God's words.
Therefore,
Daniel's vision must not be mixed with the angel's interpretation. The authority here is the angel, and not Daniel or any church.
A guiding note:
All of the four beasts, and their appendages, are described in masculine gender. NEVER is any of that described in the feminine gender!
.
How one interprets the symbolism, is guided by the word usage of "kings" and "kingdoms", being perfectly symbolized as being "head(s)" and "horns" of the Beasts themselves.
.
Important note:
Horns reveal symbiotic powers existing within a beast, and/or are lesser kings/kingdoms jutting out from the "heads" of the beasts.
.
Since the vision is about only four beasts, we must not rush off into the future, and describe them from the platform of the two beasts shown in Rev.
The rule of thumb here, is that "horns" can never be a Beast, but are rather an outgrowth of a Beast.
.
These four particular beasts all had horns that arose out from the beasts, whereby some became broken, while others continue "even until the consummation"- Dan. 9:27.

 

[Davy]

You all cannot discern the difference between prophecy and type vs. anti type.
WHEN are you going to think with God's Mind and NOT your own?? Isa. 55:8-9
.
Both Jesus and the Jews knew that by the FOREKNOWLEDGE of God, the AoD had already taken place, through the typical battles of men.
Jesus only referenced that PAST event as a TYPE (foreshadow), and therefore was applying it as ANTI TYPE (the true), to what the 70 weeks prophesied, of what God was going to do to Jerusalem!
....

So Jesus was rehashing past history when He quoted from Daniel 11 about a final false one coming to Jerusalem to place the "abomination of desolation" in a temple there??? You're twisting what He said to try and create your own doctrine, and it is a false doctrine!

Antiochus IV was a blueprint only, a type. He did not present himself as a false-Christ like Jesus warned. Nor did Antiochus perform miracles in Jerusalem like Jesus said the coming pseudo-Christ will do:

Matt 24:21-26
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
KJV

There have been worse tribulations on earth since what the Romans did in 70 A.D., so that era will never fit that coming "great tribulation" event that is yet to happen upon the whole world.

The KJV phrase "false Christs" is Greek pseudochristos, from two Greek words, pseudo meaning false and christos meaning Christ, singular. Dr. James Strong in his Strong's Exhaustive Concordance defined that phrase as 'a spurious Messiah'. Jesus was warning about a singular false one coming to work those great signs and wonders on earth to deceive, and that it would be so powerful that it would almost deceive His very elect, if it were possible. Antiochus IV did none of that!

Thus ends the history lesson.

 

[bbyrd009]

.
How one interprets the symbolism, is guided by the word usage of "kings" and "kingdoms", being perfectly symbolized as being "head(s)" and "horns" of the Beasts themselves.
.
Important note:
Horns reveal symbiotic powers existing within a beast, and/or are lesser kings/kingdoms jutting out from the "heads" of the beasts.

so, a great description of our reasoning processes, at the same time not disagreeing with as above, so below

 

[Earburner]

1a. So Jesus was rehashing past history when He quoted from Daniel 11
1b. about a final false one coming to Jerusalem to place the "abomination of desolation" in a temple there???
2.You're twisting what He said to try and create your own doctrine, and it is a false doctrine!

3. Antiochus IV was a blueprint only, a type.
4. He did not present himself as a false-Christ like Jesus warned.
5. Nor did Antiochus perform miracles in Jerusalem 6. like Jesus said the coming pseudo-Christ will do:

Matt 24:21-26
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
KJV

7. There have been worse tribulations on earth since what the Romans did in 70 A.D., so that era will never fit that coming "great tribulation" event that is yet to happen upon the whole world.

8. The KJV phrase "false Christs" is Greek pseudochristos, from two Greek words, pseudo meaning false and christos meaning Christ, singular. Dr. James Strong in his Strong's Exhaustive Concordance defined that phrase as 'a spurious Messiah'.
9. Jesus was warning about a singular false one coming to work those great signs and wonders on earth to deceive, and that it would be so powerful that it would almost deceive His very elect, if it were possible. Antiochus IV did none of that!

10. Thus ends the history lesson.

1a. Yes!
1b. No.
2. No twisting here on my part. The prophecy of Daniel (70 weeks) IS ABOUT THE END of the Temple in Jerusalem, which was the "type" to the "anti type", who IS JESUS.
3. My point exactly!
4. Antiochus E. was just a mere man, living out his vain and empty life, as a headstrong maniac, who envisioned himself as one who wanted to go beyond being great.
5. Again, AE was just a mere man, who desired to exceed greatness. There is no prophecy pointing at him to be anything else, but a man of infamy.
6. Jesus said nothing of the sort. The figment of your imagination, is derived from the
"tares" and the denominational belief system that you have married yourself to. Your thoughts are not the Lord's thoughts... Isa. 55:8-9; John 16:13.
7. I agree! Daniel is about THE END of the Temple in Jerusalem, and now that has taken place in 70AD God is no longer granting any Jew preference over the Gentiles, in His age of Grace through Jesus.
8. Okay, but what does that have to do with "born again Christians" who are one of Christ's, as opposed to those who are "none of His" ?
Because His Holy Spirit is indwelling, we cannot be deceived by those who are without his Holy Spirit.
9. Wrong! How many times must you be told that there is NO singular "THE" Antichrist to come??
According to the Textus Receptus Greek, that fabricated concept IS NOT SCRIPTURAL!!
There is no "little horn" in Rev. Spoken of or implied.
You are believing fantasy!!
10. Sorry! The history lesson continues. You failed with "F", for not knowing your Daniel.

 

[Earburner]

About my comment in #7, I intend to expound further, so that you can know that it is not prescribed within a fictional period of 7 years, as the churches are so deluded by. Simply put, they all misunderstand the 70 weeks in Dan 9. Their so called "missing week" is easily accounted through the word "he" in Dan. 9:27.
Is it meaning the Messiah Himself?
Is it meaning Titus of 70AD?
Is it meaning a coming "little horn", as proposed by the Protestant churches?
We shall find out, if you have not discovered for yourself BY His Spirit. Isa. 8:9; John 16:13.
.
"There can always be more than one lie, but there can never be more than one truth"- Earburner

 

[Earburner]

^ Isa. 55:8-9

 

[Earburner]

Dan. 9[26] And after threescore and two week [62] shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
[27] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the [62.5] week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for [because of] the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
.
After Jesus' Crucifixion, there are remaining 7.5 wks x 7= 527

 

[Earburner]

The computation above was a typo, and sent by error. Correction is 52.5 years remaining from Jesus' Crucifixion.

 

[Earburner]

I apologize for the errors above.
This site has no "safety net" for stopping a post from being sent accidently. It seems to be a gross oversight on the site builders!!
I will re-address and provide the correct info.
Thanks for your patience- Earburner

 

[Phoneman777]

The "little horn" ROSE FROM the 3RD BEAST of the Grecian Empire, and performed the AoD, as recorded BY JEWISH HISTORY (1&2 Maccabees), of which is traditionally kept by the Jews as Hanukkah!!

OK

 

[Phoneman777]

No, I'm right on... the point. And once again the point is that Apostle Paul in 2 Thess.2:3-4 meant a LITERAL temple in Jerusalem, and not some spiritual temple idea that pope haters want it to mean.

Irenaeus in his OWN words taught this also, interpreted it that very way, but you tried to post some man's opinion that was against what Irenaeus said, proving that you are on an agenda to discredit the early Church fathers like Irenaeus!

That reveals you are not to be trusted.

Look, none of us like it when a formidable challenge is presented to our cherished beliefs. I'm a firm believer in the use of sarcasm and demonstrating absurdity by being absurd to make a point, but your insults are uncalled for. Please stop.

"AGAINST HERESIES" PROOF THAT IRENAEUS
expected the Little Horn Antichrist to rise as soon as the Roman Empire fell:
​

Book V, chapter 26:
"John and Daniel have predicted the dissolution and desolation of the Roman Empire, which shall precede the end of the world and the eternal Kingdom of Christ...

"In a still clearer light has John, in the Apocalypse, indicated to the Lord's disciples what shall happen in the last times, and concerning the ten kings who shall then arise, among whom the empire which now rules [the earth] shall be partitioned. He teaches us what the ten horns shall be which were seen by Daniel, ...

Book V, chapter 30:
"But, knowing the sure number declared by Scripture, that is, six hundred sixty and six, let them await, in the first place, the division of the kingdom into ten (the division of the fourth beast aka Roman Empire); then... he (Little Horn Antichrist) who shall come claiming the kingdom for himself, and shall terrify those men of whom we have been speaking, having a name containing the aforesaid number, is truly the abomination of desolation..."

IRENAEUS EXPECTED THE ANTICHRIST TO ARISE FROM THE ROMANS (LATINS)​

"Then also Lateinos (LATEINOS) has the number six hundred and sixty-six; and it is a very probable [solution], this being the name of the last kingdom [of the four seen by Daniel]. For the Latins are they who at present bear rule: ..."

QUESTION: When did Irenaeus expect Antichrist to arise?
ANSWER: As soon as the Roman Empire fell into the Ten Horns, then the Little Horn would arise.

QUESTION: Did Irenaeus expect the Antichrist to be Latin, which precisely matches the papal kingdom?
ANSWER: Yes

QUESTION: Did Irenaeus know that the Roman Emperors restrained the rise of Antichrist, based on his own testimony that the Antichrist could only arise after Pagan Rome was out of the way?
ANSWER: Yes

The fact that Irenaeus thought the Antichrist would sit in a literal Jerusalem temple does not detract in the least that HE NEVER TAUGHT AS JESUIT FUTURISTS LIKE YOU TODAY DO THAT THE ANTICHRIST WOULD ARISE THOUSANDS OF YEARS AFTER ROME FELL.