Can We as Saved Christians Lose Our Salvation?

[BreadOfLife]

the harlot

The Harlot is apostate Jerusalem (Isa. 1:21, Matt. 23:37, Rev. 17:6).
Do your homework . . .

 

[CoreIssue]

Can we lose Salvation?
Consider is Salvation of men or is Salvation of God?

Ezekiel 36:26
[26] A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

What is this stony heart? Table of stone. Notice God is the One that removes the stone and gives a heart of flesh. Notice God is the One that put in a new spirit.

2 Corinthians 3:3
[3] Forasmuch as you are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.


2 Corinthians 3:5-7
[5] Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; [6] Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. [7] But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

Who removes the stony heart out of your flesh, and gives a heart of flesh?
Our sufficiency is OF GOD. Not the sufficiency of man...But OF God.

Ezekiel 36:27
[27] And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them .

To say one loses Salvation based off the seed falling still ...There was(is) only one ground (heart) the seed falls on and takes root and endures...endures heat and thorns and is not devoured by the fowls. Luke 8:6-8
[6] And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture. < not that one.

And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it. < not that one.

And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. < that one. God gives the heart. God gives the Spirit. God even gives the increase. And here we see “He who has ears to hear (what the Spirit speaks) let him hear.”

Can we lose Salvation?
If Salvation is of men then yes we can lose it.
If Salvation is OF GOD then no.
Acts 5:38-39
[38] And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: [39] But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.

Add Romans 8 your list.

 

[CoreIssue]

The Harlot is apostate Jerusalem (Isa. 1:21, Matt. 23:37, Rev. 17:6).
Do your homework . . .

Nope. Do your homework. She is the Roman Catholic Church sitting on the seven hills of Rome.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Nope. Do your homework. She is the Roman Catholic Church sitting on the seven hills of Rome.

Careful - your pathetic ignorance is showing again.

Vatican Hill is NOT one of the 7 hills of Rome, Einstein.
They are:
1. Aventine Hill
2. Caelian Hill
3. Capitoline Hill
4. Esquiline Hill
5. Palatine Hill
6. Quirinal Hill
7. Viminal Hill

HOWEVER - Jerusalem DOES sit on 7 hills:
1. The northern summit (hill) is called Scopus [Hill One],
2. The middle summit (hill) was called Nob [Hill Two],
3. The highest point of Olivet itself, and the southern summit (hill) was called in the Bible the "Mount of Corruption" or "Mount of Offence" [Hill Three] (2 Kings 23:13).
4. On the middle ridge between the Kedron and the Tyropoeon Valleys there was (formerly) in the south "Mount Zion" [Hill Four] (the original "Mount Zion" and not the later southwest hill that was later called by that name),
5. The "Ophel Mount" [Hill Five],
6. To the north of that the "Rock" around which "Fort Antonia" was built [Hill Six],
7. Then, there was the southwest hill itself [Hill Seven] that finally became known in the time of Simon the Hasmonean as the new "Mount Zion."

There ends the lesson, Einstein . . .

 

[CoreIssue]

Careful - your pathetic ignorance is showing again.

Vatican Hill is NOT one of the 7 hills of Rome, Einstein.
They are:
1. Aventine Hill
2. Caelian Hill
3. Capitoline Hill
4. Esquiline Hill
5. Palatine Hill
6. Quirinal Hill
7. Viminal Hill

HOWEVER - Jerusalem DOES sit on 7 hills:
1. The northern summit (hill) is called Scopus [Hill One],
2. The middle summit (hill) was called Nob [Hill Two],
3. The highest point of Olivet itself, and the southern summit (hill) was called in the Bible the "Mount of Corruption" or "Mount of Offence" [Hill Three] (2 Kings 23:13).
4. On the middle ridge between the Kedron and the Tyropoeon Valleys there was (formerly) in the south "Mount Zion" [Hill Four] (the original "Mount Zion" and not the later southwest hill that was later called by that name),
5. The "Ophel Mount" [Hill Five],
6. To the north of that the "Rock" around which "Fort Antonia" was built [Hill Six],
7. Then, there was the southwest hill itself [Hill Seven] that finally became known in the time of Simon the Hasmonean as the new "Mount Zion."

There ends the lesson, Einstein . . .

You have tried that argument before.

Your problem is before that land is given to the Catholic Church it most assuredly was part of Rome.

Even today people think of the Vatican being in Rome.

Our concern is how it was viewed in the Bible.

Ironic for you the Pope is called the Bishop of Rome.

And historically how about the holy Roman empire?

You need to get your facts straight.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Add Romans 8 your list.

Ephesians 5:30
[30] For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

2 Corinthians 5:17
[17] Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Ephesians 2:10
[10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

it doesn’t say anywhere in the Word God uncreates what was created in Christ
Instead the word says the opposite in that nothing can overthrown it or separate the children from the Love of God.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You have tried that argument before.

Your problem is before that land is given to the Catholic Church it most assuredly was part of Rome.

Even today people think of the Vatican being in Rome.

Our concern is how it was viewed in the Bible.

Ironic for you the Pope is called the Bishop of Rome.

And historically how about the holy Roman empire?

You need to get your facts straight.

And the fact remains, Einstein, that the Vatican is NOT one of the 7 hills of Rome.
As I showed you, however, Jerusalem DOES sit on 7 hills - AND fits the prophecies about the "Harlot" city in Isa. 1:21, Matt. 23:37 and Rev. 17:6.

Checkmate . . .

 

[marks]

Since you removed all of the text that I underlined - here it is again for your review.

No less that THIRTEEN admonishments to cooperate with God's grace.
Nothing is "automatic" simply because we become born again. We must endure in faith and cooperate with God's grace . . .

Col. 3:1-17
Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. Let the message of Christ dwell among you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom through psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit, singing to God with gratitude in your hearts. And whatever you DO, whether in word or deed, DO it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

Don't just quote a verse or two and declare a doctrine until you have presented it in its ENTIRE CONTEXT . . .

No worries . . . use your underlines, and big text, and bold colors, but just the same, which is the part that negates the statement made in verse 4?

You've never shown that, or in what way it is negated. Yes, we are to do these things, but just the same, if you've been born again, then you will appear with Him in glory.

Quote the chapter, quote the book, no worries! And yet, nothing in there modifies or takes away from the simple declarative statement made in Colossians 3:4.

Much love!
Mark

 

[farouk]

"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Romans 8.38-39

 

[BreadOfLife]

No worries . . . use your underlines, and big text, and bold colors, but just the same, which is the part that negates the statement made in verse 4?

You've never shown that, or in what way it is negated. Yes, we are to do these things, but just the same, if you've been born again, then you will appear with Him in glory.

Quote the chapter, quote the book, no worries! And yet, nothing in there modifies or takes away from the simple declarative statement made in Colossians 3:4.

Much love!
Mark

And YOU are falsely claiming that I said that the rest of the text "negates" the verses you cherry-picked.
They don't "negate" anything. They simply show that our salvation and rewards are conditional on our cooperation with God's grace - with what He has given us.

I gave you no less than THIRTEEN underlined admonishments and conditions.
If you can't see that - it's because you WON'T see it . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Romans 8.38-39

And so am I.
Nothing or nobody can separate me from God.

However - this passage NEVER mentions what the following passages do - that WE can separate ourselves . . .
(Matt. 5:13, Matt. 7:21, Rom. 11:22, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:20-22, 2 Peter 3:17, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19)

Here's a little advice:
Don't build an entire doctrine around 1 or 2 verses - when there are MANY more that put those 1 or 2 verses in their proper Scriptural context . . .

 

[Waiting on him]

That's NOT what Colossians 3 says at ALL.

The text repeatedly admonishes the born again believer NOT to fall into sin and to cooperate with the grace we've been given:

Col. 3:1-17
Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. Let the message of Christ dwell among you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom through psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit, singing to God with gratitude in your hearts. And whatever you DO, whether in word or deed, DO it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

 

[marks]

And YOU are falsely claiming that I said that the rest of the text "negates" the verses you cherry-picked.
They don't "negate" anything. They simply show that our salvation and rewards are conditional on our cooperation with God's grace - with what He has given us.

I gave you no less than THIRTEEN underlined admonishments and conditions.
If you can't see that - it's because you WON'T see it . . .

You have not connect a single verse to show any modification of verse 4. You've mischaracterized it as "cherry picked", but that is just an effort to marginalize my statements.

I'm saying that you are negating the words of verse 4. ". . . ye shall appear with Him in glory." There's not one word in this chapter that says that won't happen.

You keep saying that because we are instructed to do the things that we are instructed to do, that if we don't do them, the the prophecy in verse 4 will be unfulfilled. However, nothing in the chapter actually says that.

Let me give you an example.

Jesus told the people that all sins will be forgiven man, except the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, because they were saying Jesus had an unclean spirit.

Now . . . we can say, Jesus said, All sins will be forgiven men. Final. But that is out of context . . . And I can SHOW that it is out of context, because it is modified by ~ ~ ~ "except the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit".

So in this example, I can point to the text in a particular place and say, While He said all sins will be forgiven, He also made an exception in this part of the verse. I can point directly to it.

But you are not doing this. You are quoting a great chapter that says lots of great things, but none of those things are that there are some who having been born again will NOT appear with Jesus.

Much love!
mark

 

[Waiting on him]

The text repeatedly admonishes the born again believer NOT to fall into sin and to cooperate with the grace we've been given:

1 John 3:9 KJV
[9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Tecarta Bible

 

[farouk]

It's really a case of grace working in the heart, rather than attributing to mankind the supposed merit of cooperation with grace.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You have not connect a single verse to show any modification of verse 4. You've mischaracterized it as "cherry picked", but that is just an effort to marginalize my statements.

I'm saying that you are negating the words of verse 4. ". . . ye shall appear with Him in glory." There's not one word in this chapter that says that won't happen.

You keep saying that because we are instructed to do the things that we are instructed to do, that if we don't do them, the the prophecy in verse 4 will be unfulfilled. However, nothing in the chapter actually says that.

Let me give you an example.

Jesus told the people that all sins will be forgiven man, except the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, because they were saying Jesus had an unclean spirit.

Now . . . we can say, Jesus said, All sins will be forgiven men. Final. But that is out of context . . . And I can SHOW that it is out of context, because it is modified by ~ ~ ~ "except the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit".

So in this example, I can point to the text in a particular place and say, While He said all sins will be forgiven, He also made an exception in this part of the verse. I can point directly to it.

But you are not doing this. You are quoting a great chapter that says lots of great things, but none of those things are that there are some who having been born again will NOT appear with Jesus.

Much love!
mark

I'll post them again.
But, first, let's address your Scriptural ignorance in RED . . .

ALL sins are forgivable until the day we die. EVERY one of them.
What is NOT forgivable is final impenitence - and THAT is the sin against the Holy Spirit that Jesus was talking about. The Pharisees were accusing Jesus of driving out demons in the name of Beelzebul and NOT the Holy Spirit. In other words - they were denying the work of the Holy Spirit.

This is not an exclusively "Catholic" interpretation - but one that is shared by MOST of YOUR Protestant scholars.

As promised - here is the proof of the THIRTEEN admonishments and conditions that I have posted - TWICE.
The text repeatedly admonishes the born again believer NOT to fall into sin and to cooperate with the grace we've been given:

Col. 3:1-17
Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. Let the message of Christ dwell among you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom through psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit, singing to God with gratitude in your hearts. And whatever you DO, whether in word or deed, DO it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

 

[BreadOfLife]

1 John 3:9 KJV
[9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Tecarta Bible

You guys have GOT to stop cherry-picking Scripture verses to make your point.
ALL you are doing is pitting one verse against another because you refuse to see the CONTEXT of Scripture.

Here, John is referring NOT to a born again person who stumbles in sin. We ALL stumble in sin from time to time. John is referring to living a life of willful sin. John ALSO tells his readers:
1 John 1:8
If WE claim to be without sin, we deceive OURSELVES and the truth is not in US.

He is including HIMSELF here.

Paul does the SAME thing:
Rom. 7:15-17
I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.

1 Tim. 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

 

[CoreIssue]

And the fact remains, Einstein, that the Vatican is NOT one of the 7 hills of Rome.
As I showed you, however, Jerusalem DOES sit on 7 hills - AND fits the prophecies about the "Harlot" city in Isa. 1:21, Matt. 23:37 and Rev. 17:6.

Checkmate . . .

Harlot dresses in Roman garb.

List of cities claimed to be built on seven hills - Wikipedia

 

[BreadOfLife]

It's really a case of grace working in the heart, rather than attributing to mankind the supposed merit of cooperation with grace.

That's NOT what the BIBLE says:

Matthew 23:37
Luke 13:34
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and YOU WERE NOT WILLING.

Phil. 2:12
Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always OBEYED--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

1 Cor. 3:9
For we are CO-WORKERS (sunergos) in God’s service; God’s building.

2 Cor. 6:1
As God's CO-WORKERS (sunergos) we urge you not to receive God's grace in vain.

 

[farouk]

That's NOT what the BIBLE says:

Matthew 23:37
Luke 13:34
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and YOU WERE NOT WILLING.

Phil. 2:12
Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always OBEYED--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

1 Cor. 3:9
For we are CO-WORKERS (sunergos) in God’s service; God’s building.

2 Cor. 6:1
As God's CO-WORKERS (sunergos) we urge you not to receive God's grace in vain.

Ephesians 2 shows that grace is sovereign.