The Issue of Calvinism.

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Y A W N .....and....how many threads do we need?
The ones we already have are not enough?

Bless you! ... H

evidently several more because several still cling to error.

 

[farouk]

I don't really have the time or resource to do that. My understanding of Calvinism will therefore remain based on my understanding of the acronym TULIP.

I don't know why our friend uses the phrase 'perverted by the Calvinists'.

 

[farouk]

evidently several more because several still cling to error.

As I see it, all points of TULIP have ample Scripture to back them up.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

But yet, Peter noted that the Lord "was unwilling that any should perish but that all should come to repentance". I agree that God the Father provides the rain that softens the "soil" so that the word of God can penetrate and take root. But, I do believe that we have a choice to surrender (or not). I do not believe that "irresistible grace" is taught by Scripture.

God is very willing that many perish...in fact multitudes
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

God is very willing that many perish...in fact multitudes
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Just because God allows it to happen doesn't mean that is what He WANTS to have happen.

 

[Mjh29]

Just because God allows it to happen doesn't mean that is what He WANTS to have happen.

If He didn't want it to happen, it wouldn't

 

[farouk]

Just because God allows it to happen doesn't mean that is what He WANTS to have happen.

1 Corinthians 10.32 seems to indicate that all at the same time different groups of people are being governed sovereignly according to His purposes.

 

[farouk]

I wish all would make a strong an argument for Christ as everyone seems to for Calvin.

It's all about doctrine; no doctrine, no knowledge of Christ.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

If He didn't want it to happen, it wouldn't

Not true. You make God the author of sin. God did NOT want the Israelites to sin so grievously but they did anyway. He said that it never even crossed His mind that they would perform the abomination of child sacrifice--yet they did. He was apparently so disgusted by the practice that He told them the Land would vomit them out, just the way it had the Canaanites.

 

[Mjh29]

Not true. You make God the author of sin. God did NOT want the Israelites to sin so grievously but they did anyway. He said that it never even crossed His mind that they would perform the abomination of child sacrifice--yet they did. He was apparently so disgusted by the practice that He told them the Land would vomit them out, just the way it had the Canaanites.

So, God is not all-knowing nor all powerful?

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

So, God is not all-knowing nor all powerful?

Of course He is. But, just as the Lord Jesus put aside much of His power when He inhabited a mortal body, so God Almighty chooses not to exercise His power, at times.

 

[Mjh29]

Of course He is. But, just as the Lord Jesus put aside much of His power when He inhabited a mortal body, so God Almighty chooses not to exercise His power, at times.

I agree. This however does not mean that things can happen without him wanting it to. There is a difference between God choosing not to do something, and something happening without Him wanting it to.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

I agree. This however does not mean that things can happen without him wanting it to. There is a difference between God choosing not to do something, and something happening without Him wanting it to.

 

[justbyfaith]

As I see it, all points of TULIP have ample Scripture to back them up.

There are also certain verses that, it could be said, are in refutation of some of the points of TULIP.

 

[farouk]

There are also certain verses that, it could be said, are in refutation of some of the points of TULIP.

God's sovereignty and human responsibility are balancing truths throughout Scripture.

 

[Mjh29]

There are also certain verses that, it could be said, are in refutation of some of the points of TULIP.

I would agree that some verses may SEEM to contradict Calvinism if you don't read them in their context. However, I think that we can also agree that the Scriptures never contradict themselves.

 

[justbyfaith]

@Mjh29, I am interested in what you have to say about the OP.

 

[justbyfaith]

God's sovereignty and human responsibility are balancing truths throughout Scripture.

I agree that human responsibility is not to be left out of our biblical understanding.

 

[Mjh29]

I believe that faith is a gift from God, and is given by His grace. Now, I do believe that when a person comes to Christ, God gives them the gift of faith, and immediately afterwards they accept Him as their savior. I believe the 2 are so closely related, and happen is such close proximity to one another, that it would be impossible to tell which comes first and which follows if the Scriptures did not tell us. So, for all intents and purposes, a person is given faith and accepts God themselves practically simultaneously. Now, this faith ultimately is the gift of God, but that does not make the choice any less theirs.... they just could not have made this choice had God not intervened and changed them from the inside, and given them grace to have faith.

 

[OzSpen]

In this thread I basically wanted to take the main points on both sides and put them together so we can come to a better conclusion as to how they come together in harmony, if we can find that in these verses.

A synopsis of what was said in the other threads so that we can continue forward with a fresh perspective.

Read Norman Geisler, Chosen But Free, to get this synthesis.

Oz