Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists.

[CoreIssue]

Yes, He can. He is the King of Kings, but that is a term that means He can have other Prince/Kings ruling in His stead, in other places. If you will read chapters 40-48 that give a VERY detailed description of the Millennial Kingdom, there is a "Prince" spoken of who rules over the Millennial Kingdom. There is an OT prophecy that God will "raise up David" (Jeremiah 30:9) as the King over the Millennial Kingdom. This "Prince" has "sons"--it is obvious from that description that a mortal is being referenced as Jesus said that we will be like the "angels in heaven" in the Resurrection "neither marrying nor being given in marriage". Since it is unthinkable to have child-bearing without marriage, we must deduce that the Millennial Kingdom is a mortal Kingdom. There are other clues as well. The prophet, Isaiah makes a lot of prophecies about the Millennial Kingdom. He says that there will still be death (though greatly reduced) and sin (also greatly reduced)--(see Isaiah 65:20). All of this and more tell us that it is a mortal Kingdom and that "David" is Christ's proxy over the Kingdom. But it will fail too at the end. It will be one last demonstration that mortal mankind, even under ideal conditions, is unable to govern itself apart from God.

Now you just launched into theory.

David will be the king of Israel, not the world. Christ is and will rule from Jerusalem with an iron scepter. The 144,000 will be his administrators and the tribulation martyrs will rule with him. The church will also be with him.

Nations that attacked him second at the coming will be required to do annual pilgrimages to the Jerusalem Temple.

Of course MK is a physical kingdom. But the nations will be moral. They will eat, sleep, marry, have sex, have children, age and die. But they will live up to 1000 years.

Jesus Christ is a glorified human body. It cannot be two places at once.

 

[ScottA]

I replied to your post.

Yes, my on-topic post.

 

[CoreIssue]

Yes, my on-topic post.

Nope.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Jesus Christ is a glorified human body. It cannot be two places at once.

That is why I believe He will be in the New Jerusalem with His Bride in His "Father's House" (heaven) for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb before He comes back to earth with the Armies of Heaven to vanquish the Antichrist and the False Prophet. Jesus said that His Bride will always be with Him in the place that He has prepared for "her"--in His Father's House. (John 14:3) (also see Matthew 26:29) After the Final Judgment, at the end of the Millennium, the New Jerusalem will come down out of heaven to the earth. I believe the Bride will be there in the New Jerusalem.

 

[n2thelight]

I thought they were already here

Have you seen them?

Evil spirits are here,ie,their influence however the below has yet to happen.

Revelation 12:7 "And there was war in heaven: Mi'-cha-el and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,,"

Revelation 12:8

"And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven."

This is the time of the sounding of the fifth trumpet, when Satan and his fallen angels are released upon the earth for the final five months period, spoken of in Revelation 9:5, 10. Satan will spend five months here on earth deceiving all mankind, then go to the pit for the thousand years. After that thousand years, Satan [not his fallen angels] will be released for a short period, then go to perdition [perish]. Once Satan is kicked out of heaven, he will not be allowed to return. Today Satan is in heaven accusing the saints before the Lord.

This is prophesy that will come in the very near future.

Revelation 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Sa'-tan, which deceived the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

Again this has yet to happen!

 

[CoreIssue]

@Lady Crosstalk
At the close of the marriage supper/end of the tribulation, the bride comes out the wedding chamber and is rvealed to the world.

That cannot happen the bride is in heaven. Nor can Christ world with an iron scepter if he is not on the earth.

Not sure what you're calling the final judgment. If the white throne then that does not occur until the destruction of the earth.

"Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book."

Rev 19
Revelation 20:4
Zechariah 14:16-21
Revelation 20:6 - Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

 

[Naomi25]

I honestly, after lots of work, almost completely give no thought to them at all, but let me reiterate that I totally believe in Scriptural rapture, Bible Search: rapture, I just don't equate it with harpazo, mostly bc I have experienced being snatched away, as no doubt you have also.

But might Jesus literally appear in the clouds to bodily remove some "us" from the earth at some point? I certainly don't know ok, but "every eye will see Him" and "the kingdom does not come by observation" suggest a diff interp to me

So, if I am to understand you correctly, you are stating that in our walk with Christ, we can experience spiritual rapture....an experience of delight, rather than of physical removal. Is that correct? Because, while I don't disagree that indeed, as we follow Christ we experience joy beyond anything else, I'm not sure that it is entirely honest to suggest that is what the passage is speaking of. To start with, the verses that speak of this 'rapture' compares those of us 'still living' with the dead Christians before us, and how they too will be 'raptured'. Are we to suppose that these dead faithful ones can still experience spiritual rapture? That it can only happen at that moment in time? That we can only experience that spiritual rapture at that moment in time...when 'the trumpet sounds and Christ descends'?
I know you say you have given much thought to this, and I am not attempting to fight, but you are consistently dismissive of the idea of Christ's "return" and our catching up to him. So...I would ask you a few things...

For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words. -1 Thessalonians 4:14–18

So...with this passage, there is nothing here that suggests we're talking about spiritual feelings or our spiritual walk. We have categories...those who have fallen alseep in the Lord, and those of us who are left (in the Lord). We have a time period..."until the coming of the Lord", and we have an event..."the Lord will descend from heaven". Then actions and an order are described; the dead 'rise' first, then those Christians who are still alive and left at that period of time, they will also be 'caught up'. What makes us suppose it's a physical rapture and not a spiritual one? Because we're told it will be "in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air"....two actual space and time locations.

Also, when speaking of this 'rapture', most people look to this passage:

I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
“O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?” -1 Corinthians 15:50–55

We know Paul is speaking of the same event because of the reference to the 'dead being raised', then we too shall be. But this passage gives us a little more information than just who and when. It tells us there is a purpose to this 'twinkling' change, this meeting the Lord in the air event. It is done because flesh and blood...perishable, cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. And when the dead have been 'refurbished' and those of us still alive have been given new, imperishable bodies that 'immortal', then death, that final enemy, will be defeated and no more.
I think one of my big questions to you is this: IF these verses are only speaking of a spiritual state...of embracing our faith to such a degree that all these 'end times' promises become realities now....how is it that death still reigns now? The clear promise in 1 Cor 15 is that Christ will return and put death, the final enemy down. And no matter how 'spiritually attuned' a Christian may be, they are still subject to death, are they not? So, in point of fact, when you see scripture speaking of the rapture being delight, it still cannot deliver you from that. However, I contend that the verses that speak of the Rapture promise exactly that.

Return to Me, and I will return to you

You keep using this reference in regards to all the end times promises, but I cannot see the relevance, I'm sorry. When used in OT verses such as Zech 1:3 and Mal 3:7 it was being used in very much a OT way, where Israel had once again turned away from God. In the Old Covenant, when Israel broke it's promises, God would punish them by breaking off his blessings, as per the agreement. He would then send Prophets to remind them "return to me and I will return to you".
However, as promised, there came a New Covenant. Jesus, Son of God, came, as did the Holy Spirit. As a Christian we always have the Spirit within us and our relationship with God is completely different than the Old Covenant ways were. Christ is our intecessor, the Spirit our constant helper....why would he need to tell us 'return to me and I'll return to you', when part of the Trinity always dwells within us?
No...the promises we read in the NT for God's plans of the end of human history have nothing to do with our personal walk of faith and spiritual growth with God...it has everything to do with his ultimate plan that was there from before time that will lead to more glory for him.

 

[n2thelight]

The answer is that a different group of believers is being spoken of in Revelation 7:3. Messianic Jews are at the center of the events of the Book of Revelation--that is why you never hear of the "Church" after chapter 3. "She" comes down as a Bride in the New Jerusalem in chapter 21 but still not referred to as the "Church". The symbolism is obvious in chapter 21, but "She" is still not referred to as the "Church" because the New Jerusalem will contain the souls of not only the Church but also un-churched Gentiles and believing Jews, saved and martyred during the Tribulation. All will be simply, the people of God in the Eternal State. The true Church today (minus the sin nature that plagues all of mortal life), is a picture of the Eternal State. That will be a wonderful time.

Rather than being lifted up and away as the Church will be (Enoch, Elijah and, finally, Jesus Himself are types of the Church being lifted up and away). We are "citizens of heaven"--the Church has the exclusive right to that title, even while here on the earth--it is never used as a definition of any other people group. Israel, when faithful and obedient to Yahweh was always been kept through any tribulation (trouble)--even if only a remnant is left at the end of the trouble.

Ain't no different group of believers,you either believe now or go through the millennium dead(spirtiually speaking)

That's the one thing I hear from rapturist is the Church not mentioned after Rev 3
Who do tell are the saints?

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

When Satan and his fallen angles are cast out onto the earth, the "elect" and those who have the seal of God in their minds will overcome them through the power given them in Christ's blood. You are the "elect" when you understand who Satan is, and what will come to pass. God has promised you and I that we have power over Satan, and God's protection is extended to each of those sealed in their minds.

"The word" of your testimony will allow you to overcome them, you won't even premeditate what to say, for God, through the Holy Spirit, will put the words in your mouth. The death that comes is to the "two witnesses" only, and to them it is for 84 hours [three and a half days].

Revelation 12:12 "Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

When Satan is caste out, those dear souls in heaven will start a celebration in heaven. Those are the dear Christians that have died and are in heaven with the Father. However, Satan [the devil] is coming to earth with his angels to bring the wrath of their deception with them. Satan is not after your body, but after your soul.

 

[Naomi25]

Dave L keeps demanding everybody else post proofs. When they do he rejects them and demands them to post proofs.

But he never posts a proof for what he claims.

This is just a little bit rich coming from you.

 

[n2thelight]

Where is the rapture in revelations?
Where is the rapture in Matt 24?
Where is the rapture in Mark 13?

Heck where is the rapture in all of scripture?

 

[Naomi25]

That amillennialism will is biblical.

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. - Matthew 24:29–31

Ok...firstly, we are told "immediately" after the tribulation of 'those days' we shall see great signs in the heavens. 'Then' the sign of the Son of Man will appear. The very interesting part of this verse is where "all the tribes of the earth will mourn" because they will "see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of Heaven"...at which time he will 'send out his angels and gather his elect'.
So...if he's Rapturing his elect...how come all the nations see Christ and are mourning? Unless it's the 'end event'...and not a rapture event 7 years before the end when Christians disappear and no-one sees Christ.


For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words. -1 Thessalonians 4:15–18

We can clearly see this is the same event; the dead rise first, then we who are alive are caught up; and we are always with the Lord after that.
But...what else does scripture say about the Rapture?

I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
“O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?” -1 Corinthians 15:50–55

This is an important passage, as it tells us something: when the Rapture happens, when Christians, dead and alive, are raised and given their new bodies...imperishable not perishable, then death will be defeated. 1 Cor 15 also says something about the defeat of death:

But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. -1 Corinthians 15:21–26

This passage is crucial. AT Christ's coming is the resurrection of the dead (the Rapture, the perishable putting on imperishable), THEN comes the end when he delivers the Kingdom to the Father. This is the Kingdom where he has destroyed every rule and authority and power...the only enemy left to be destroyed was death, and as we saw, it was defeated the moment Christ returned and Raptured his Church to him.


If we look back to Matt 24:29-31 where we noticed that when Christ comes back to Rapture his Saints, all the Nations see it and mourn, we also see passages that speak of Christ's return in conjunction of judgement of the nations...also a cause for them to mourn.

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats…And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” - Matthew 25:31-32,46

Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field.” He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear. - Matthew 13:36–43



I could go on. But, for the moment I think I've provided enough scriptures to prove at least two things: the rapture occurs not 7 years before the end, but at the end, when death is finally defeated. And that this 'end event' happens at a time where all nations see, recognize and mourn...they see and mourn and are judged.

Now...you may disagree. I fully expect you too. But, scriptures HAVE been provided. I have some expectation you will disagree without any scriptural basis, as per usual...I would like to be surprised in this regard. It would also be nice if you actually, as promised to Dave L, fronted up some scriptures that supported your view, rather than just claiming that it was biblical, full stop. Cause until you show it...eh.

 

[n2thelight]

f we look back to Matt 24:29-31 where we noticed that when Christ comes back to Rapture his Saints, all the Nations see it and mourn, we also see passages that speak of Christ's return in conjunction of judgement of the nations...also a cause for them to mourn.

Where is the rapture in Matt 24?

Does He not say AFTER the trib?

 

[Keraz]

I've heard this criticism before but don't entirely understand it. If people are waiting for rapture and it doesn't happen, why is it so unlikely that Christian's would change their eschatology and become posttrib, or amillenial? Surely we don't become Christians on the argument of pretrib rapture alone, but through revelation of God's Son. I don't really see Christian's abandoning the entire faith on the basis that their end times theory happened to be incorrect.

Right; the 'rapture' belief is not a salvation issue.
But those who do expect to be removed may renounce their faith when what they have been taught, [indoctrinated] does not happen.
1 Peter 4:12 is very explicit: we will be tested. To be not ready to stand firm in our faith and to trust the Lord for His protection, will make it difficult and there may be some who will feel that God has reneged on them, so they will renounce Him.

 

[Naomi25]

Where is the rapture in Matt 24?

Does He not say AFTER the trib?

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. - Matthew 24:29–31

I would say that the part where it says "he sends out his angels with a loud trumpet call and they gather his elect" would be the Rapture.
And yeah...after the 'tribulation'...this would take place...which would mean it doesn't take place before it...

 

[Naomi25]

@n2thelight I would also just point out that I am in no way supporting Dispensationalism by my support of the Rapture. I am, in point of fact, an Amillennialist. But I do see the bible teaching a "Rapture"....when Christ returns, that single, end-time event, when he returns to judge the world, raise the dead and make all things new (including us!)...including an event that Paul talks about in terms of Christians being lifted up to meet their Lord in the air. I don't really care if you want to call it something different, but that event...that being 'lifted up' to meet him in the air...is most certainly in scripture.

 

[ScottA]

Nope.

Not On Planet Earth.

 

[Waiting on him]

So...if he's Rapturing his elect...how come all the nations see Christ and are mourning? Unless it's the 'end event'...and not a rapture event 7 years before the end when Christians disappear and no-one sees Christ.

Or maybe the end event is the rapture event?

 

[Keraz]

This is an important passage, as it tells us something: when the Rapture happens, when Christians, dead and alive, are raised and given their new bodies...imperishable not perishable, then death will be defeated. 1 Cor 15 also says something about the defeat of death:

It is quite incorrect to say that the prophecy of 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 refers to a 'rapture' at Jesus' Return. Paul does not say when it happens at all, but we can know that from Revelation 21:1-7, the only place in the Bible where it tells us that Death is no more.
No one can receive immortality until they stand before God on the GWT and the Book of Life is opened and their names are found in it. Revelation 20:11-15

 

[Waiting on him]

It is quite incorrect to say that the prophecy of 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 refers to a 'rapture' at Jesus' Return. Paul does not say when it happens at all, but we can know that from Revelation 21:1-7, the only place in the Bible where it tells us that Death is no more.
No one can receive immortality until they stand before God on the GWT and the Book of Life is opened and their names are found in it. Revelation 20:11-15

Christ defeated death over two thousand years ago

 

[Dave L]

I asked if you thought you were Israel and a Jew. Can't you just answer the question?

The Church is Israel and Christianity is the true completed Judaism. Today Jew = false religion (Judaism). Jews are not a race.