Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists.

[CoreIssue]

Firstly , What scripture you provide?? Let's see it.
Secondly, your opinion of what constitutes "truth" is only your opinion for eg. that denies CHRIST will return physically and set up a physical millennial Kingdom on earth, for eg of one of your "opinions".
Thirdly , do us all a favor and get a dictionary Dave. Just because You disagree with a person doesn't mean they are lying. "Lying" is to speak an untruth deliberately to deceive or to make a deliberate false statement. It is not a disagreement nor is it when someone is mistaken either.
Here's some scripture from Revelation that speaks of Christ's physical millennial kingdom.
Rev 20:1-15
Satan bound
"1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

4Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
Satan Freed, Doomed

7When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Judgment at the Throne of God

11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the bookof life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

He considers his paraphrasing of a verse to be providing Scripture without even identifying it.

Of course it's paraphrased according to his beliefs, not just copying and pasting the verse.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

This outcome is not what the Bible tells us. It is a made up idea that supports the 'rapture' theory.
Zechariah 12:10 goes on to say how just a few families will mourn. And Zechariah 13:1-8 plainly prophesies how only a remnant will be saved. Romans 9:27

I have pointed this truth out before, was to you? Why can't you believe it?

I do believe it and I don't know why you think you told me that--maybe I didn't see it. In any case, it has always been understood by Pre-trib advocates that two thirds of Israel's population will die before the rest ("all Israel" which is left) "will be saved".

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

It really would be a blessing if you actually did research instead of just putting stuff out there as fact.

The Majority of the organized church has not been "rapture to heaven" as you put it. In the history of the church especially since the 4th century, the majority opinion has been ammillenial or post trib. The vast majority of theology learning centers are ammillenial or post-trib.

That's because Augustine was an amillennialist and his beliefs were embraced by the Roman Catholic Church (they consider him to be a "doctor of the Church"). They were next taken up by Calvin (in fact, Calvinism was, at first, called "Calvinistic Augustinianism") and Luther--so that infected much of Protestantism with amillennialism as well. Pre-millennialism has always been a minority view until evangelicalism--particularly Baptist evangelicals--took it up in the 20th century. But many of the early Greek Fathers held to it. Augustine got some things wrong because he had been a pagan for much of his life before his conversion, and also because he did not read Greek. The Bible he used in forming his theology was an inferior Latin text.

And even still it amazes me how such a minority opinion can garner such angst and vitriol whenever it is brought up. Even when it isn't brought up. It must really cut deep on a lot of folks to make them get their blood pressure up.

Truth stated boldly often has that affect on some people it seems--especially those who would rather believe in the ruminations of men than go to the Bible--the direct source of truth. When humans let the Bible speak meaning to them from its wholeness, it can open the mind to the Holy Spirit's ministry. Those who seek to impose meaning on the Scriptures from the biases of men, are quite apt to go astray in a number of ways.

And as I have stated elsewhere, if the pre-trib is just about the only opinion that causes even secular writers and speakers to get their knickers in a wad. There is a lot of literature from New Ager / UFO / Spiritual channeler types that waste a lot of ink dismissing the pre-trib, but hardly a breath towards the other positions.

Perhaps it is because some part of them believes it and they hate the thought of being left alone to face God's wrath? But they still refuse to bend the knee to the Messiah in stubborn rebellion. And that is exactly what we see in those who belong to the world, in the Book of Revelation. In the End, they will bend the knee.

It still begs the question then, the pre-trib position is a false theory, doctrine of demons, causes many to led astray, etc, then why is Satan spending so much time trying to discredit it in secular circles? At the very least, explaining it away if not out right discrediting it. If one is in the opposition camp, it might be worth taking a pause and making sure that one is not actually taking up the cause of Satan as opposed to countering what they perceive as a false theory.

Yes.

The biggest risk to actually being right is assuming that one is already right. Reevaluation of one's position is always a good thing to do occasionally. It is a battle, and a good soldier always reevaluates the battle conditions and movement of the enemy to position himself in order to be effective, not a casualty, or at worse.... actually giving aid and comfort to the enemy.

Amen.

 

[Davy]

Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists.

Anyone looking for direct scripture support of the famed Pre-Trib Rapture will come up empty handed. Admits Rapture heavyweight John Walvoord in his book called The Rapture Question (Findlay, OH:1957, p.148). He agrees with G. E. Ladd saying;

"Ladd, in contrast to Jones, concedes that post-tribulalional rapture is an inference rather than an explicit revelation of Scripture in the following statement:

"Nor does the Word explicitly place the Rapture at the end of the Tribulation."

“The fact is that neither posttribulalionism nor pretribulationisim is an explicit teaching of Scripture. The Bible does not in so many words state either.”

“Pretribulationism is based on the fact that it allows a harmony of the Scriptures relating to the Second Advent.”

“The separation of the translation from the return of Christ to earth permits each of the two events so different in character, to have its own place.”

“It solves the problem of the confusing and contradictory details in the post-tribulational interpretation illustrated in the difficulty of the postribulationist's themselves to work out a harmony of prophecies related to the second advent."

Another Rapture heavy-weight, Tim LaHaye says the same:

"One objection to the pre-Tribulation Rapture is that not one passage of Scripture teaches the two aspects of His Second Coming separated by the Tribulation. This is true. But then, no one passage teaches a post-trib or mid-trib Rapture, either."

Tim LaHaye, No Fear of the Storm: Why Christians Will Escape All the Tribulation (Sisters, OR: Multnomah, 1992), 69. This book was later republished as Rapture Under Attack). “That’s Not in the Bible” Gary DeMar

So despite the fact millions of books claiming the rapture flew off the shelves in the face of the failed prophecies surrounding them, why do millions of Christians believe as scripture truth the claims put forth by these?

If you believe in the pre-trib rapture, how do you support it with scripture when these cannot?

Problem with some of those quotes also is that when they say there is no Biblical proof of a post-tribulational rapture, they are telling a lie:

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

In the above example, Christ's elect are gathered "from one end of heaven to the other". That is about the "asleep" saints Apostle Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 4 that Jesus will bring with Him when He comes.


Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

In this Mark 13 example, Christ's elect are gathered "from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven". That's His Church that is still alive on earth at His coming. That is what some call the 'rapture', but what Apostle Paul in 1 Thess.4 called "caught up".


So there it is, PROOF FROM OUR LORD JESUS' OWN MOUTH that His coming to gather the Church is AFTER the tribulation.

Those on the pre-trib fly away rapture doctrine REJECT these Scripture proofs our Lord Jesus gave, and instead tell the lie that those Scriptures are for Jews! and not for Christ's Church! The above Scripture alignment with what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4 is definite proof that the pre-trib rapture doctors are lying.

They also reject this proof that shows our Lord Jesus only returns ONE TIME, NOT TWO. When Jesus returns, and gathers His Church, that is... His second coming. The pre-trib liars try to divide that by inserting another coming prior to the tribulation.

So those of you on men's pre-trib rapture lies, go ahead, engulf yourself in that spiritual drunkenness if you want. It's your choice. But you will NEVER be able to reverse the timing Jesus showed in those above Scriptures for when He comes to gather His Church. You can reject those Scriptures all you want, but you can't make them go away!

 

[CoreIssue]

Problem with some of those quotes also is that when they say there is no Biblical proof of a post-tribulational rapture, they are telling a lie:

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

In the above example, Christ's elect are gathered "from one end of heaven to the other". That is about the "asleep" saints Apostle Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 4 that Jesus will bring with Him when He comes.


Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

In this Mark 13 example, Christ's elect are gathered "from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven". That's His Church that is still alive on earth at His coming. That is what some call the 'rapture', but what Apostle Paul in 1 Thess.4 called "caught up".


So there it is, PROOF FROM OUR LORD JESUS' OWN MOUTH that His coming to gather the Church is AFTER the tribulation.

Those on the pre-trib fly away rapture doctrine REJECT these Scripture proofs our Lord Jesus gave, and instead tell the lie that those Scriptures are for Jews! and not for Christ's Church! The above Scripture alignment with what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4 is definite proof that the pre-trib rapture doctors are lying.

They also reject this proof that shows our Lord Jesus only returns ONE TIME, NOT TWO. When Jesus returns, and gathers His Church, that is... His second coming. The pre-trib liars try to divide that by inserting another coming prior to the tribulation.

So those of you on men's pre-trib rapture lies, go ahead, engulf yourself in that spiritual drunkenness if you want. It's your choice. But you will NEVER be able to reverse the timing Jesus showed in those above Scriptures for when He comes to gather His Church. You can reject those Scriptures all you want, but you can't make them go away!

You need to study more. Those gathered at the second coming is Israel.

Isaiah 27:12-13 New International Version (NIV)
12 In that day the Lord will thresh from the flowing Euphrates to the Wadi of Egypt, and you, Israel, will be gathered up one by one. 13 And in that day a great trumpet will sound. Those who were perishing in Assyria and those who were exiled in Egypt will come and worship the Lord on the holy mountain in Jerusalem.

Ezekiel 20:33-38 New International Version (NIV)
33 As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I will reign over you with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm and with outpoured wrath. 34 I will bring you from the nations and gather you from the countries where you have been scattered—with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm and with outpoured wrath. 35 I will bring you into the wilderness of the nations and there, face to face, I will execute judgment upon you. 36 As I judged your ancestors in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will judge you, declares the Sovereign Lord. 37 I will take note of you as you pass under my rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant. 38 I will purge you of those who revolt and rebel against me. Although I will bring them out of the land where they are living, yet they will not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Lord.

At the second coming there is a single reference to a living church on the earth or anyone but Israel being gathered.

 

[Copperhead]

You need to study more. Those gathered at the second coming is Israel.

Yep. And and Matthew 25:1-13 is an exposition on Ezekiel 20.

For the removal and hiding of the righteous before all the calamities go down, Isaiah 26 goes into a lot of detail, and King David alludes to it in Psalms 27:5 which contains a veiled reference to Jeremiah 30:7.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Firstly , What scripture you provide?? Let's see it.
Secondly, your opinion of what constitutes "truth" is only your opinion for eg. that denies CHRIST will return physically and set up a physical millennial Kingdom on earth, for eg of one of your "opinions".
Thirdly , do us all a favor and get a dictionary Dave. Just because You disagree with a person doesn't mean they are lying. "Lying" is to speak an untruth deliberately to deceive or to make a deliberate false statement. It is not a disagreement nor is it when someone is mistaken either.
Here's some scripture from Revelation that speaks of Christ's physical millennial kingdom.
Rev 20:1-15
Satan bound
"1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

4Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
Satan Freed, Doomed

7When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Judgment at the Throne of God

11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the bookof life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Also, Ezekiel chapters 40-48 give a very detailed description of the Millennial Temple and the physical Kingdom. Israel will have greatly expanded borders and the Gentile nations surrounding Israel will bring tribute into the Kingdom. The latter chapters of Isaiah give a description of what life will be like in the Kingdom--especially chapter 65. When the Hebrew canon was being formalized, some rabbis objected to the inclusion of the Book of Ezekiel. They said, "There has never been such a Temple." They also apparently had doubts that Israel would ultimately receive an actual physical Kingdom along with the new and strange Temple. But in the end, they gave in, because it was clear that Ezekiel was a true prophet of God, since everything he predicted in the early chapters came true. All of the OT prophets spoke of an Israel which would one day be restored and given the promised Kingdom--a mortal physical Kingdom (probably comprised of the survivors of the Tribulation). How do we know? Because Isaiah speaks of death and sin being still present in the Millennium (although greatly reduced). It seems that God will renew the Creation and repair the genomes of many species--including humans.

In addition, the Ezekiel latter chapters speak of the "sons" of the "Prince". Jesus told us that, in the Resurrection, we will be like the angels in heaven, neither marrying nor being given in marriage. Since it is unthinkable that a "nation of priests" would have children without being married, we must deduce that those who directly rule the Kingdom must be mortals. Some Jewish Christians speculate that the New Jerusalem (containing the Bride of Christ) will be suspended in the atmosphere above the earth and be visible from earth; that Christ will rule from there with a mortal proxy "Prince" ruling directly. The New Jerusalem then comes down to earth after the Millennium, final rebellion, and Final Judgment take place. (Rev. chapter 21).

 

[CoreIssue]

Yep. And and Matthew 25:1-13 is an exposition on Ezekiel 20.

For the removal and hiding of the righteous before all the calamities go down, Isaiah 26 goes into a lot of detail, and King David alludes to it in Psalms 27:5 which contains a veiled reference to Jeremiah 30:7.

Are you referring to the 144,000 in Petra or the church in the rapture?

 

[Davy]

Also, Ezekiel chapters 40-48 give a very detailed description of the Millennial Temple and the physical Kingdom. Israel will have greatly expanded borders and the Gentile nations surrounding Israel will bring tribute into the Kingdom. The latter chapters of Isaiah give a description of what life will be like in the Kingdom--especially chapter 65. When the Hebrew canon was being formalized, some rabbis objected to the inclusion of the Book of Ezekiel. They said, "There has never been such a Temple." They also apparently had doubts that Israel would ultimately receive an actual physical Kingdom. But in the end, they gave in, because it was clear that Ezekiel was a true prophet of God, since everything he predicted in the early chapters came true. All of the OT prophets spoke of an Israel which would one day be restored and given the promised Kingdom--a mortal physical Kingdom. How do we know? Because Isaiah speaks of death and sin being still present in the Millennium (although greatly reduced). In addition, the Ezekiel latter chapters speak of the "sons" of the "Prince". Jesus told us that, in the Resurrection, we will be like the angels in heaven, neither marrying nor being given in marriage. Since it is unthinkable that a "nation of priests" would have children without being married, we must deduce that those who directly rule the Kingdom must be mortals. Some Jewish Christians speculate that the New Jerusalem (containing the Bride of Christ) will be suspended in the atmosphere above the earth and be visible from earth; that Christ will rule from there with a proxy mortal "Prince" ruling directly. The New Jerusalem then comes down to earth after the Millennium, final rebellion, and Final Judgment take place. (Rev. chapter 21).

The restoration of the kingdom of Israel when Jesus returns is about those of His followers, not the unbelieving and rebellious:

Ezek 20:38
38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against Me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
KJV

He is going to gather those out of the country they were scattered, but those still will not be allowed into the holy land. So any thinking that just because one is BORN an Israelite by birth guarantees them an automatic place in Christ's future Millennial Kingdom, then that idea is false.

 

[CoreIssue]

The restoration of the kingdom of Israel when Jesus returns is about those of His followers, not the unbelieving and rebellious:

Ezek 20:38
38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against Me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
KJV

He is going to gather those out of the country they were scattered, but those still will not be allowed into the holy land. So any thinking that just because one is BORN an Israelite by birth guarantees them an automatic place in Christ's future Millennial Kingdom, then that idea is false.

But the verses are only addressing Israel.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Yep. And and Matthew 25:1-13 is an exposition on Ezekiel 20.

For the removal and hiding of the righteous before all the calamities go down, Isaiah 26 goes into a lot of detail, and King David alludes to it in Psalms 27:5 which contains a veiled reference to Jeremiah 30:7.

Jeremiah also says that God will raise up "David" to rule over the Kingdom (Jeremiah 30:9). This may be a double reference to both Jesus (as a descendant of David) and perhaps even David himself. Even the NT speaks of a restoration of Israel. Acts 1:6 has the disciples asking the Risen Jesus if He was going to restore the Kingdom to Israel at that time. The only thing that Jesus says is that "the Father" sets those dates and directs them to the task at hand, telling the world about Him. Also, Acts 15:16 quotes Amos 9:11: "Afterward, I will return and restore the fallen house of David." It is clear that the Jewish believers in the very early Church believed that there would one day be a restoration of the Kingdom to Israel. Paul confirms that "Once the full number of Gentiles have come in..." (Romans 11:25-26)

 

[CoreIssue]

Jeremiah also says that God will raise up "David" to rule over the Kingdom (Jeremiah 30:9). This may be a double reference to both Jesus (as a descendant of David) and perhaps even David himself. Even the NT speaks of a restoration of Israel. Acts 1:6 has the disciples asking the Risen Jesus if He was going to restore the Kingdom to Israel at that time. The only thing that Jesus says is that "the Father" sets those dates and directs them to the task at hand, telling the world about Him. Also, Acts 15:16 quotes Amos 9:11: "Afterward, I will return and restore the fallen house of David." It is clear that the Jewish believers in the very early Church believed that there would one day be a restoration of the Kingdom to Israel. Paul confirms that "Once the full number of Gentiles have come in..." (Romans 11:25-26)

It is. Often in Jewish lineage one who inherits the position of the ancestor is called the ancestor.

Those in Israel are called after the name of their ancestor Israel.

The Davidic covenant says his descendent will sit on the throne. You cannot have David and his descendent on the throne at the same time physically.

 

[Davy]

Jeremiah also says that God will raise up "David" to rule over the Kingdom (Jeremiah 30:9). This may be a double reference to both Jesus (as a descendant of David) and perhaps even David himself. Even the NT speaks of a restoration of Israel. Acts 1:6 has the disciples asking the Risen Jesus if He was going to restore the Kingdom to Israel at that time. The only thing that Jesus says is that "the Father" sets those dates and directs them to the task at hand, telling the world about Him. Also, Acts 15:16 quotes Amos 9:11: "Afterward, I will return and restore the fallen house of David." It is clear that the Jewish believers in the very early Church believed that there would one day be a restoration of the Kingdom to Israel. Paul confirms that "Once the full number of Gentiles have come in..." (Romans 11:25-26)

There will be a restoration of God's Israel when Jesus returns. Notice I said God's Israel, not the Jew's view of Israel.

God's True Israel:

Rom 9:6-8
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
KJV

What Apostle Paul was actually talking about there was God's Promise by Faith first given to Abraham. That was 430 years before the law when God gave Abraham the Promise. It is not of works, nor of birth. It is by God's grace by Faith on The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

The Promise would continue to Isaac, and then to his seed Jacob who would be given the new name 'Israel' to represent The Gospel Promise by Faith! And then the Promise of The Gospel would go to Jacob's seed Joseph, and then to Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh where Ephraim would become "a multitude of nations" in The Gospel, and then The Gospel would go out to ALL nations in the world to bring all believers into Christ's Kingdom.

Thus trying to tie The Gospel Promise solely to one people and one small place on earth is not what God's Word is about.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

It is. Often in Jewish lineage one who inherits the position of the ancestor is called the ancestor.

Those in Israel are called after the name of their ancestor Israel.

Yes, I know that.

The Davidic covenant says his descendent will sit on the throne. You cannot have David and his descendent on the throne at the same time physically.

Yes you can if, Jesus, as the King of Kings, rules over the whole earth, including the King of the Kingdom of Israel. The title "King of Kings" in ancient times referred to one who ruled over an Empire which included lots of "local" Kings.

In the case of the Babylonian Empire, Daniel 5 mentions the ruler, Belshazzar and that caused a bit of consternation because the secularly recorded Babylonian King of that period was Nabonidis. It turns out that Nabonidis was off pursuing his own exploits and placed his eldest son, Belshazzar on the throne to rule in his stead, as his proxy. It was a big mistake as Belshazzar was very evil and cruel and lost the Babylonian Empire due to God's judgment falling on him and his corrupt court. The Medo-Persians conquered them in one night (under Darius the Mede). For anyone who wants to explore the Babylonian history from that period (it's complicated): https://www.bible-history.com/babylonia/BabyloniaNabonidus_Stele.htm

So, it is possible to have two on the same throne at one time.

 

[Davy]

Yes you can if, Jesus, as the King of Kings, rules over the whole earth, including the King of the Kingdom of Israel. The title "King of Kings" in ancient times referred to one who ruled over an Empire which included lots of "local" Kings.

One must decide, (especially one born of Israel), whether their 'main' focus will be on The Gospel of Jesus Christ involving believers of all nations in His future Kingdom when reading and studying God's Holy Writ, or focus on the people of Israel and the land of Israel only. The latter focus without... The Gospel is not what God's Word is about.

 

[Copperhead]

There is a dynamic to the messianic kingdom that I think many fail to notice. There will still be sin. there will still be death. And there will still be the nations (exclusive of Israel) that will be required to come to Jerusalem to honor festivals laid out in Torah. And those that don't, will have certain punishments meted out.

The kingdom parables give us a snapshot. For instance, the parable of the mustard tree. It grows into a large tree that even birds are nesting. For one, a mustard plant is not a tree. It barely reaches a height of 3 feet. So there is a dynamic to the kingdom that is not normal. And birds are nesting in that tree. From the previous parable of the sower, we know the birds represent the evil ones. Evil will still be present and nesting in the kingdom. Satan may be locked up, but there is nothing in scripture that says his cronies are locked up.

The parable of the woman and the leaven is another. Leaven in scripture is almost always associated with corruption and sin. Yeshua told His disciples to avoid the leaven of the Pharisees. In this parable, a woman is hiding leaven in 3 measures of meal. 3 Measures of meal is the fellowship offering at the Temple. To hide leaven in that was a capital crime during the temple era. The leaven permeates the entire 3 measures of meal. Sin will grow in the kingdom and eventually permeate the entire kingdom.

When Satan is released at the end of the 1000 years, he is able to foment rather quickly a worldwide rebellion against the Lord. Psalms 2 talks about this.

And the scripture is very clear that Yeshua will be ruling with a rod of iron which suggests that He is going to have to lay down the heavy hand on those that get out of line.

Some, I feel, think that the Messianic Kingdom is heaven on earth. Sure, the earth will be restored to what it should have been from the Garden of Eden, but the sinful heart of man remains. This means there will be mortal Hebrews and Gentiles that go into the kingdom at the end of the tribulation period. And many of them, or more likely their offspring later, will not place their trust in Messiah even though He will be ruling over them. Even when face to face with the Lord, in a virtually perfect environment, mankind can't help but rebel.

 

[tzcho2]

There is a dynamic to the messianic kingdom that I think many fail to notice. There will still be sin. there will still be death. And there will still be the nations (exclusive of Israel) that will be required to come to Jerusalem to honor festivals laid out in Torah. And those that don't, will have certain punishments meted out.

The kingdom parables give us a snapshot. For instance, the parable of the mustard tree. It grows into a large tree that even birds are nesting. For one, a mustard plant is not a tree. It barely reaches a height of 3 feet. So there is a dynamic to the kingdom that is not normal. And birds are nesting in that tree. From the previous parable of the sower, we know the birds represent the evil ones. Evil will still be present and nesting in the kingdom.

The parable of the woman and the leaven is another. Leaven in scripture is almost always associated with corruption and sin. Yeshua told His disciples to avoid the leaven of the Pharisees. In this parable, a woman is hiding leaven in 3 measures of meal. 3 Measures of meal is the fellowship offering at the Temple. To hide leaven in that was a capital crime during the temple era. The leaven permeates the entire 3 measures of meal. Sin will grow in the kingdom and eventually permeate the entire kingdom.

When Satan is released at the end of the 1000 years, he is able to foment rather quickly a worldwide rebellion against the Lord. Psalms 2 talks about this.

And the scripture is very clear that Yeshua will be ruling with a rod of iron which suggests that He is going to have to lay down the heavy hand on those that get out of line.

Some, I feel, think that the Messianic Kingdom is heaven on earth. Sure, the earth will be restored to what it should have been from the Garden of Eden, but the sinful heart of man remains. This means there will be mortal Hebrews and Gentiles that go into the kingdom at the end of the tribulation period. And many of them, or more likely their offspring later, will not place their trust in Messiah even though He will be ruling over them. Even when face to face with the Lord, in a virtually perfect environment, mankind can't help but rebel.

Yup , it was disappointing to me when I first read this prophetic scripture yrs ago that some of these people would once again rebel, but I guess it's going to take that long to draw that evil out & finish it off once and for all.

 

[CoreIssue]

There will be a restoration of God's Israel when Jesus returns. Notice I said God's Israel, not the Jew's view of Israel.

God's True Israel:

Rom 9:6-8
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
KJV

What Apostle Paul was actually talking about there was God's Promise by Faith first given to Abraham. That was 430 years before the law when God gave Abraham the Promise. It is not of works, nor of birth. It is by God's grace by Faith on The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

The Promise would continue to Isaac, and then to his seed Jacob who would be given the new name 'Israel' to represent The Gospel Promise by Faith! And then the Promise of The Gospel would go to Jacob's seed Joseph, and then to Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh where Ephraim would become "a multitude of nations" in The Gospel, and then The Gospel would go out to ALL nations in the world to bring all believers into Christ's Kingdom.

Thus trying to tie The Gospel Promise solely to one people and one small place on earth is not what God's Word is about.

That is replacement theology.

 

[n2thelight]

You misunderstand--I never maintained that Israel could ever gain salvation without Christ.

Sorry if I misunderstood,help me out.What are you saying?

 

[n2thelight]

That God will pour out a Spirit of grace upon them and they will eventually embrace their Messiah (see Zechariah 12:10) and live in Him.

They are embracing their messiah,however it's the wrong one.