Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists.

[Lady Crosstalk]

Don't feel bad. He doesn't know himself half the time what he is saying. He is muslim. He likes the brand 'christian' so he can talk on a Christian forum.

Stranger

Interesting that an un-converted Muslim could sound so much like an un-converted Jew. I guess that makes sense of a sort, since the only real peace that I have ever seen between Jews and Muslims (or even within themselves) is in Christ.

 

[tzcho2]

Don't feel bad. He doesn't know himself half the time what he is saying. He is muslim. He likes the brand 'christian' so he can talk on a Christian forum.

Stranger

That would explain it. He's not a Christian by any stretch because he has not the minutest clue what it is about, but likes to think he's poking a stick at it and believers.

 

[tzcho2]

Interesting that an un-converted Muslim could sound so much like an un-converted Jew. I guess that makes sense of a sort since the only real peace that I have ever seen between Jews and Muslims (or even within themselves) is in Christ.

Much of jewish teachings were plagarized.

 

[Copperhead]

Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists.

Anyone looking for direct scripture support of the famed Pre-Trib Rapture will come up empty handed. Admits Rapture heavyweight John Walvoord in his book called The Rapture Question (Findlay, OH:1957, p.148). He agrees with G. E. Ladd saying;

"Ladd, in contrast to Jones, concedes that post-tribulalional rapture is an inference rather than an explicit revelation of Scripture in the following statement:

"Nor does the Word explicitly place the Rapture at the end of the Tribulation."

“The fact is that neither posttribulalionism nor pretribulationisim is an explicit teaching of Scripture. The Bible does not in so many words state either.”

“Pretribulationism is based on the fact that it allows a harmony of the Scriptures relating to the Second Advent.”

“The separation of the translation from the return of Christ to earth permits each of the two events so different in character, to have its own place.”

“It solves the problem of the confusing and contradictory details in the post-tribulational interpretation illustrated in the difficulty of the postribulationist's themselves to work out a harmony of prophecies related to the second advent."

Another Rapture heavy-weight, Tim LaHaye says the same:

"One objection to the pre-Tribulation Rapture is that not one passage of Scripture teaches the two aspects of His Second Coming separated by the Tribulation. This is true. But then, no one passage teaches a post-trib or mid-trib Rapture, either."

Tim LaHaye, No Fear of the Storm: Why Christians Will Escape All the Tribulation (Sisters, OR: Multnomah, 1992), 69. This book was later republished as Rapture Under Attack). “That’s Not in the Bible” Gary DeMar

So despite the fact millions of books claiming the rapture flew off the shelves in the face of the failed prophecies surrounding them, why do millions of Christians believe as scripture truth the claims put forth by these?

If you believe in the pre-trib rapture, how do you support it with scripture when these cannot?

Funny, that Dr Kenneth Wuest, head of NT Greek at Moody Bible Institute for many decades before his death in 1961 thought that that the scripture, especially 2 Thessalonians 2 clearly supported the pre-trib position.

Virtually every translation of 2 Thessalonians 2:3 prior to the KJV said it was a departure (as in physical departure) was in view not a falling away or doctrinal departure. Even the Latin Vulgate uses "dicessio" which is a spatial, physical departure. And the context in laid out in verse one. The context is the Day of the Lord and our gathering to Him, not our departing from Him. For instance....

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (1599 Geneva Bible) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

And there are many scholars who concur with Kenneth Wuest's assertion on the text meaning a physical departure or rapture and not a doctrinal departure or falling away. Dr. Andy Woods published a book specifically addressing 2 Thes 2:3 in February 2018. "The Falling Away: Spiritual Departure Or Physical Rapture: A second look at 2 Thessalonians 2:3" Very detailed analysis.

And I am convinced that the pre-trib removal of the righteous has substantial support in the OT as well. But then, that would be the standard set in Torah and affirmed by the Bereans in Acts 17. And it becomes apparent when those attack the pre-trib, especially those they think are somehow "leaders" of the concept, that the attackers never seem to use much OT support to bolster their position, even though that is the scriptural requirement that must be met for any doctrinal matter to be established.

But I also find it rather curious that the pre-trib is the one position that seems to generate so much angst and vitriol not only from the "Christian" community, but especially so the secular community as well. Primarily those who write New Age / UFO / Channeling books where they claim to channel extraterrestrials. They go to great lengths to dismiss the pre-trib position and waste little time attacking any other position. So it does beg the question, why would a psychotic super cherub (Satan) have such a severe problem with the pre-trib if in fact it is doctrinally incorrect and leads people astray?

I get this sudden Shakespearian moment.... "me thinks ye doest protest to much".

 

[Helen]

Interesting that an un-converted Muslim could sound so much like an un-converted Jew. I guess that makes sense of a sort since the only real peace that I have ever seen between Jews and Muslims (or even within themselves) is in Christ.

Haha!! & @tzcho2

They have had their pushing and shoving forever and a day on this forum .

bbyrd009 is not a muslim... Stranger is always trying to put him in that box.

Im not sure it it not breaking the forum rules to throw that kind of thing at other members.
I am friends with both of them...so just take what they say lightly

....Helen

 

[tzcho2]

No mater how much you hawk this stuff, you haven't any scripture to support even one claim Dispensationalists make.

Funny, accusing someone else of hawking when Corelissue is merely responding with scriptural teachings answering your aggressive attacks upon those who believe in the rapture of 1Thess4 . So ironic when, you're the one feverishly peddling threads that attack evangelical Christian doctrines, not just content to disagree & discuss, but actually trying to spread your false views.

 

[tzcho2]

Haha!! & @tzcho2
They have had their pushing and shoving forever and a day on this forum .
bbyrd009 is not a muslim... Stranger is always trying to put him in that box.
Im not sure it it not breaking the forum rules to throw that kind of thing at other members.
I am friends with both of them...so just take what they say lightly
....Helen

Whatever he is - he is badly confused & not interested in Biblical truth.

 

[tzcho2]

But I also find it rather curious that the pre-trib is the one position that seems to generate so much angst and vitriol not only from the "Christian" community, but especially so the secular community as well. Primarily those who write New Age / UFO / Channeling books where they claim to channel extraterrestrials. They go to great lengths to dismiss the pre-trib position and waste little time attacking any other position. So it does beg the question, why would a psychotic super cherub (Satan) have such a severe problem with the pre-trib if in fact it is doctrinally incorrect and leads people astray?

I get this sudden Shakespearian moment.... "me thinks ye doest protest to much".

That has not escaped my notice either. Pretrib is the most viciously attacked - but why? prolly because it's True! What does Satan hate? see what is most viciously attacked. Btw I liked your description of the adversary, I think you nailed it.

 

[Dave L]

Funny, accusing someone else of hawking when Corelissue is merely responding with scriptural teachings answering your aggressive attacks upon those who believe in the rapture of 1Thess4 . So ironic when, you're the one feverishly peddling threads that attack evangelical Christian doctrines, not just content to disagree & discuss, but actually trying to spread your false views.

It has been years and we still have no direct support from scripture for any Dispensationalists futuristic claims.

 

[Dave L]

Funny, that Dr Kenneth Wuest, head of NT Greek at Moody Bible Institute for many decades before his death in 1961 thought that that the scripture, especially 2 Thessalonians 2 clearly supported the pre-trib position.

Virtually every translation of 2 Thessalonians 2:3 prior to the KJV said it was a departure (as in physical departure) was in view not a falling away or doctrinal departure. Even the Latin Vulgate uses "dicessio" which is a spatial, physical departure. And the context in laid out in verse one. The context is the Day of the Lord and our gathering to Him, not our departing from Him. For instance....

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (1599 Geneva Bible) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

And there are many scholars who concur with Kenneth Wuest's assertion on the text meaning a physical departure or rapture and not a doctrinal departure or falling away. Dr. Andy Woods published a book specifically addressing 2 Thes 2:3 in February 2018. "The Falling Away: Spiritual Departure Or Physical Rapture: A second look at 2 Thessalonians 2:3" Very detailed analysis.

And I am convinced that the pre-trib removal of the righteous has substantial support in the OT as well. But then, that would be the standard set in Torah and affirmed by the Bereans in Acts 17. And it becomes apparent when those attack the pre-trib, especially those they think are somehow "leaders" of the concept, that the attackers never seem to use much OT support to bolster their position, even though that is the scriptural requirement that must be met for any doctrinal matter to be established.

But I also find it rather curious that the pre-trib is the one position that seems to generate so much angst and vitriol not only from the "Christian" community, but especially so the secular community as well. Primarily those who write New Age / UFO / Channeling books where they claim to channel extraterrestrials. They go to great lengths to dismiss the pre-trib position and waste little time attacking any other position. So it does beg the question, why would a psychotic super cherub (Satan) have such a severe problem with the pre-trib if in fact it is doctrinally incorrect and leads people astray?

I get this sudden Shakespearian moment.... "me thinks ye doest protest to much".

Wuest is a Moody style "Dispie". And you cannot read his expanded translation apart from seeing extreme violence to the text where he pushes everything he can to favor the Dispie camp.

 

[tzcho2]

It has been years and we still have no direct support from scripture for any Dispensationalists futuristic claims.

The fact that you continue to state that does not make it true since evidence is contrary showing that you repeatedly ignore the scriptural responses that contradict your false teachings. Sadly you just can't see or hear it.

 

[Dave L]

The fact that you continue to state that does not make it true since evidence is contrary showing that you repeatedly ignore the scriptural responses that contradict your false teachings. Sadly you just can't see or hear it.

If you have even one scripture, post it and prove me wrong. How about 7 year tribulation? Restored Roman empire? Pre-trib rapture ???

 

[CoreIssue]

If you have even one scripture, post it and prove me wrong. How about 7 year tribulation? Restored Roman empire? Pre-trib rapture ???

you said you would provide verses proving amillennialism. Where are they?

 

[Copperhead]

Wuest is a Moody style "Dispie". And you cannot read his expanded translation apart from seeing extreme violence to the text where he pushes everything he can to favor the Dispie camp.

Why don't you say what you really think! Why is it that instead of focusing on supporting texts for ones position, character attacks seem to be the norm against those that don't agree with one's pet theology. I think we were warned about heading down that road. Something like not receiving the spirit of the world. Or more appropriately... not receiving the spirit of American political attack ads.

But there is also Dr. Kenneth Johnson, Dr. Chuch Missler, etc that also support Wuest's assertion. And Dr. Andy Woods takes it on full force and breaks it down also.

So, while it can be fun, I suppose, to attack folks, why don't you try and prove them wrong. See if you can refute Dr. Woods on the analysis of 2 Thessalonians 2:3 only the merits without resorting to personal diatribes. I am quite confident that you do not know him personally, so it is outside your pay grade to make any personal judgement of the man. Stick to the content of what he asserts and try and refute it scholarly. I eagerly await your scholarly analysis of Dr. Woods work on the subject.

 

[tzcho2]

If you have even one scripture, post it and prove me wrong. How about 7 year tribulation? Restored Roman empire? Pre-trib rapture ???

Hilarious!!!

 

[Dave L]

Hilarious!!!

It's OK. Laughing is good for you. But still not one scripture to support your views (lies?).

 

[Dave L]

Why don't you say what you really think! Why is it that instead of focusing on supporting texts for ones position, character attacks seem to be the norm against those that don't agree with one's pet theology. I think we were warned about heading down that road. Something like not receiving the spirit of the world. Or more appropriately... not receiving the spirit of American political attack ads.

Bad translations are just that...bad translations.

 

[Dave L]

you said you would provide verses proving amillennialism. Where are they?

I proved the kingdom is spiritual = Amillennialism = no physical kingdom.

 

[CoreIssue]

I proved the kingdom is spiritual = Amillennialism = no physical kingdom.

Sure. You also proved martians exist.

 

[tzcho2]

It's OK. Laughing is good for you. But still not one scripture to support your views (lies?).

Your delusional, like in your bash Jews & Israel threads , you blatantly ignore the scriptures given to you and then turn around and say you haven't been given any.