Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists.

[Lady Crosstalk]

What is dispensational premillennialism / premillennial dispensationalism?
Question: "What is "dispensational premillennialism / premillennial dispensationalism?"

Answer: Premillennialism as a system is primarily based on a literal method of biblical interpretation. The main premise of premillennialism is that Jesus will literally return to the earth before (pre) the millennium begins and that He himself will inaugurate and rule over it. Premillennialists can be divided into two groups with respect to their central approach to the prophetic Scriptures, historic premillennialists and dispensational premillennialists. The basic difference between the two is the emphasis that each gives to the nation of Israel during the millennium, the period of a thousand years during which Christ will reign on earth (see Revelation 20:1-7).

Historic premillennialists believe that scriptural prophecy, especially the passages in Daniel and Revelation, give the entire history of the Church in symbolic form. Thus, they look into the Church’s past and present to find prophetic fulfillment and to see where they are in God’s prophetic timetable. Most historic premillennialists hold that the nation of Israel will undergo a national salvation immediately before the millennium is established, but there will be no national restoration of Israel. Thus, the nation of Israel will not have a special role or function that is distinct from the Church.

In contrast to historic premillennialism, dispensational premillennialism has gained popularity among modern evangelicals. Dispensational premillennialists hold that the second coming of Christ, and subsequent establishment of the millennial kingdom, is to be preceded by a seven-year-long period known as the “Tribulation,” the earthly activity of the Antichrist as well as the outpouring of God’s wrath on mankind. Dispensational premillennialists hold that the nation of Israel will be saved and restored to a place of preeminence in the millennium. Thus, Israel will have a special function of service in the millennium that is different from that of the Church.

Another difference is that most dispensational premillennialists hold that the millennium is for a literal 1000 years, while some historic premillennialists assert that the 1000 years is figurative for a long period of time. Basically, the fundamental difference between historic premillennialism and dispensational premillennialism consists in the latter’s insistence on maintaining a distinction between the nation of Israel and the Church. According to dispensationalists, the millennium will be a period of history in which God reverts back to fulfilling His Old Testament promises made to ethnic Israel, after this modern “Church Age” in which we live today is concluded. As such, the millennium will be a state of Jewish dominion over all the world, along with a newly restored Jewish temple and priesthood.

The Christians who reign with Christ will all have been given eternal, glorified bodies, and will reign spiritually, while the Jews will own the world physically, and will live, marry, and die (although evincing incredible longevity), just as people have throughout the history of the world. It is only after this thousand-year period, in which God fulfills His promises to ethnic Israel, that Christ will put down a final rebellion and usher in the eternal state with its New Heaven and New Earth (Revelation 21-22).

Historic premillennialism, conversely, requires none of this strict dichotomy between God’s spiritual people, the Church, and His physical people, ethnic Israel; it merely looks ahead to a time when Christ will reign visibly on the earth, before He brings in the eternal state."

"Recommended Resource: Dispensationalism by Charles Ryrie"

A good summary, my friend. Could I recommend another book on the pre-Tribulation Rapture? Dwight Pentecost's (with a name like that, he'd have to be a pastor or theologian, wouldn't he?) Things to Come. He was (before his death in 2014) one of only two ever honored to be named as Distinguished Professor of Bible Exposition, Emeritus, at Dallas Theological Seminary--the virtual home of dispensationalism. Many who were skeptical of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture position have come away convinced of the truth of the Pre-Trib Rapture, after reading Things to Come. While I am not rigidly dispensational, I do hold to much of what you have outlined as the dispensational view. I believe, with all my heart, that God has "written the name [Israel] on the palms of [His] hands". He says so in Isaiah 49:16 and one verse before that, God asks the rhetorical question, "...Can a mother forget her nursing child?...But even if that were possible, I would not forget you." If you go back to God's promises to Abraham (which were not predicated on obedience--God swore by Himself) the "sand" is the physical seed of Abraham and the "stars" are his spiritual seed--by faith alone. The physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are in the world today--God knows who and where they are and, when the time is right, He will bring them back into their Land. It is to them that a physical mortal Kingdom will be given. The Church is the Body of Christ, spiritual descendants of Abraham through Judah, David and Jesus--represented by the "stars". We inherit a spiritual Kingdom from Him. Our home is in heaven.

 

[farouk]

A good summary, my friend. Could I recommend another book on the pre-Tribulation Rapture? Dwight Pentecost's (with a name like that, he'd have to be a pastor or theologian, wouldn't he?) Things to Come. He was (before his death in 2014) one of only two ever honored to be named as Distinguished Professor of Bible Exposition, Emeritus, at Dallas Theological Seminary--the virtual home of dispensationalism. Many who were skeptical of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture position have come away convinced of the truth of the Pre-Trib Rapture after reading Things to Come. While I am not rigidly dispensational, I do hold to much of what you have outlined as the dispensational view. I believe, with all my heart, that God has "written the name [Israel] on the palms of [His] hands". He says so in Isaiah 49:16 and one verse before that, God asks the rhetorical question, "...Can a mother forget her nursing child?...But even if that were possible, I would not forget you." If you go back to God's promises to Abraham (which were not predicated on obedience--God swore by Himself) the "sand" is the physical seed of Abraham and the "stars" are his spiritual seed--by faith alone. The physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are in the world today. It is to them that a physical mortal Kingdom will be given. The Church is the Body of Christ, a spiritual descendant of Abraham through Judah, David and Jesus. We inherit a spiritual Kingdom from Him. Our home is in heaven.

I would indeed generally sympathize with the outlook on prophecy asociated with Dallas Seminary. It's good to be clear about dispensational distinctions.

 

[Enoch111]

in order to completely avoid reality & ignore prophetic scriptures.

THIS IS CALLED DELUSIONAL FANTASIES.

The Lord never meant for Christians to have delusional fantasies, but because of the doctrines of men, many Christians do. Here are a few:

1. No Christian is in Heaven. Enoch and Elijah did not go to Heaven.
2. There is no such thing as the Rapture.
3. The book of Revelation was fulfilled in the first century.
4. The Second Coming of Christ was fulfilled in the first century.
5. The Rapture, the Second Coming, and all the judgments in Revelation occur on "the last day" (within 24 hours).

 

[tzcho2]

THIS IS CALLED DELUSIONAL FANTASIES.

The Lord never meant for Christians to have delusional fantasies, but because of the doctrines of men, many Christians do. Here are a few:

1. No Christian is in Heaven. Enoch and Elijah did not go to Heaven.
2. There is no such thing as the Rapture.
3. The book of Revelation was fulfilled in the first century.
4. The Second Coming of Christ was fulfilled in the first century.
5. The Rapture, the Second Coming, and all the judgments in Revelation occur on "the last day" (within 24 hours).

Add #6. God Revoked His promises & is done with Israel

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Hate to keep bringing this up,but I must,WHO is Israel??????

Even if one could trace their bloodline all the way back to Abraham himself,if you don't believe in Christ ,right here right now it doesn't matter!!

It's NO Israel perse from what you saying,Christians are Israel and if you don't see that you gonna stay blinded..

Everybody keep saying ISRAEL ISRAEL,again if you dont believe in Christ,it dosn't matter WHO you are

He, my God divorced them,only way back is through Christ!!!!PERIOD!!!!!

That's a pretty bold statement about the supposed "divorce". Where is it found in Scripture. Yes, Yahweh has punished the physical seed of Abraham by throwing them out of the Land that He gave to them because of their disobedience. But a "divorce"--NO. God knows who and where that physical seed is and He will bring them back to the Land when He decides. The Risen Jesus said that "the Father determines those dates" (for the restoration of the Kingdom) in Acts 1:6. He will always take them back even though they have been unfaithful. This is pictured over and over in the OT.

 

[Dave L]

Hilarious! the guy who pushes Replacement Theology calls me a false prophet for defending the Rapture & supporting the views of dispensational premillenialism, well actually come to think of it, your calling me a "false prophet" fits with the other delusional claims you've made.
Along with Replacement Theology it is the Preterist views you promote.
Preterists must dishonestly use hermeneutical gymnastics and play "peak a boo" & "hide and seek" with the Biblical truth in order to completely avoid reality & ignore prophetic scriptures.

Prove you are not a false prophet by quoting one verse directly supporting a 7 year tribulation. a pre-trib rapture, a restored Roman empire etc., etc.

 

[tzcho2]

Prove you are not a false prophet by quoting one verse directly supporting a 7 year tribulation. a pre-trib rapture, a restored Roman empire etc., etc.

Stop already...Lol! my sides hurt! Sorry to disappoint you but I'm just a poster, one amongst many who believe in rapture of church & great trib will occur according to prophecy in the book of Revelation etc, that doesn't make me a false prophet.

 

[tzcho2]

ROTFL! ok all you "false prophets" You know who you are (or who dave thinks you are anyway) ....the Christians who believe there will be a Rapture of the church as 1Thess 4:13-18 says & believe who the prophecies in the book of Revelation etc for tell future events aka 7 yr great tribulation----give yerselves up!

Again, I think a dictionary or Biblical definition would be helpful for "someone" to understand what a false prophet is but....

 

[Enoch111]

Add #6. God Revoked His promises & is done with Israel

Those who say this are actually making God a liar. That is a terrible thing. All Christians should know -- from the Bible itself -- that God has an eternal plan and purpose for the Church (redeemed Jews and Gentiles in one Body) and God ALSO has an eternal plan and purpose for redeemed and restored Israel on earth after the Second Coming of Christ. These two plans run side-by-side in the eternal Kingdom of God.

 

[CoreIssue]

Dave L keeps making negative proof claims and negative proof demands.

Such things are not admissible in debate, court and moderate. They are empty of any real meaning.

He never proves what he claims.

 

[tzcho2]

Dave L keeps making negative proof claims and negative proof demands.
Such things are not admissible in debate, court and moderate. They are empty of any real meaning.
He never proves what he claims.

Yes, like accusing me of being a false prophet and telling me I have to prove I'm not. A false prophet accusation because I agree with pretrib rapture & that there will be 7yr trib.

 

[Keraz]

God knows who Israel is.

Yes He does; Amos 9:9
In no way is all of Israel restricted to the Jews, those who call themselves Jews and who live in the Jewish State of Israel.
Thinking that they are, is a complete contradiction of all the OT Promises given to each of the 12 tribes from Jacob.

While I do believe that God has kept note of the actual descendants of Jacob, the only real requirement to be an Israelite of God, is to have faith and to trust in Jesus. Galatians 3:26-29 makes this abundantly clear.

It is sheer nonsense and false teaching to say that the current citizens in the Land of Israel, are the only recipients of God's promises to all of Israel. Bible prophecy is plain: Only a remnant of them; the ones who have accepted Christianity now, will survive the forthcoming Lord's Day of fiery wrath. Romans 9:27, Isaiah 29:1-4, Zephaniah 1:14-18, +

 

[Enoch111]

Dave L keeps making negative proof claims and negative proof demands.

Dave needs a serious "re-education" on Bible truth.

 

[Keraz]

Yes, like accusing me of being a false prophet and telling me I have to prove I'm not. A false prophet accusation because I agree with pretrib rapture & that there will be 7yr trib.

Both beliefs are wrong and have no genuine Bible support.
No one goes to heaven; Jesus said so. John 3:13
The Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, will last for 3 1/2 years, culminating in the Battle of Armageddon, at the Return of Jesus.

 

[Naomi25]

It is quite incorrect to say that the prophecy of 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 refers to a 'rapture' at Jesus' Return. Paul does not say when it happens at all, but we can know that from Revelation 21:1-7, the only place in the Bible where it tells us that Death is no more.
No one can receive immortality until they stand before God on the GWT and the Book of Life is opened and their names are found in it. Revelation 20:11-15

Except, yes he does, if we consider the passage as a whole...as we rightly should, as he's speaking to the same issue essentially.
Before the clear Rapture reference in 15:50-56, Paul gives us a very undoubtable timeframe of when this will happen:

But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. -1 Corinthians 15:23

And we can be sure he is speaking of the Rapture, because he is speaking of the resurrection...he, Christ was the firstfruits of this 'new resurrection body', then at his coming, we too shall receive this body.....hence...the Rapture, which he then goes on to speak about in more detail further on.

 

[CoreIssue]

Dave needs a serious "re-education" on Bible truth.

Reeducation or education from scratch?

 

[Naomi25]

rapture comports with the first, and "harpazo" with the second, yes.

Well, as far as I'm aware, 'harpazo' is used in 1 Thess 4:17 when speaking of this 'rapture'...rather than just 'rapture'...so...a physial snatching away IS in view here. The Greek word does mean: to seize, catch up, snatch away, which, to my way of thinking does not speak to a joyous rapture.

now "harpazo" and the various roots xlated "rapture" are being conflated, so no.

Well, I think perhaps they are only being conflated in your mind because you are playing the two off one another. And, sure, I can see how the fact that calling the event of "the Rapture" may have done that. But, I think that the bible speaks of the spiritual joy we can have in Christ as something entirely separate than the times it speaks of Christ's return and our being 'harpazo'-ed (if I can put it that way!) to him, or 'gathered to' him. One of the ways we can determine this 'harpazo' is different to just a spiritual feeling is because it is often spoken of at the same time as reference to our new, resurrection bodies...our 'imperishable' bodies. To the 'defeat of death'. Things...physical things...that we do not see or have now. I think that even you must agree that while many of the promises of God are 'yes and amen' right now in Christ and we have acess to them and can experience them spiritually in Christ, there are some physical promises that just haven't come to pass yet. Like the defeat of death. And scripture tells us that that won't occur until perishable puts on imperishable. Paul even tells us that all creation is groaning and longing for this time! How can we not long for it as well?

hey, bam if you find "return" anywhere other than @ Return to Me, and I will return to you then I am open ok

bbyrd, I don't believe for one second that you are silly enough to think that just because a particular word doesn't show up in a sentence, then an idea or meaning cannot be gotten across.

well, then you might ask yourself why Scripture describes a diff sense of rapture than harpazo, but I'm sure we can at least agree that whatever the future holds generally speaking, no ones beliefs will change it any? And I am not here to change anyone's beliefs, and wouldn't want to inhibit any rapture believer from expressing their belief either, ok.

I'm not sure I understand you here, sorry. What do you mean, why does scripture describe a difference sense of rapture than harpazo? Because...in the verse I quoted, 1 Thess 4:17, it does describe a harpazo. Are you perhaps referring to the fact that scripture ALSO describes an emotional state? Because if you are, I would say that that in itself is your answer and is fairly self-explainatory. Two separate things: now we experience joy in Christ, and at some point in the future we will experience a harpazo.
But yes, I don't suppose our opinions on it will effect what will be one way or the other!!

Imo it is spiritual death that is being referred to in literal terms, as There is only One Immortal, and you are not Him et al makes clear. The kingdom does not come by observation

So...you think that once we're done here, that's it? That we'd better find 'spiritual rapture' in this life now, cause there's nothing coming after it? (Please correct me if I'm wrong...you know that I struggle to really "get" what you're saying!)
Because if it is, my friend...you are missing out on some wonderful promises of God for our future. If you think things are good in God now, consider what it would be like with no sickness, death or sin.

 

[Naomi25]

The pretrib answer to this is that those elect are they that converted to Christianity after the rapture. The remaining ones who realize the truth of Christ.

The problem I see with that is that there starts to be a blurring of the timeline to try and make it 'convenient' for Dispensational doctrine. There is no time differentiations in any of the texts that speak of Christ's return...nothing that would reveal a 'first' or 'second' aspect to his return. Therefore any time people force such interpretations upon these texts in order for them to fit a doctrine, it must be called into question.
Matt 24 doesn't speak of a rapture 7 years before this final return, but Dispensationalists insist it must. But in truth, it only 'must' so that their doctrine jigsaw will fit.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Yes He does; Amos 9:9
In no way is all of Israel restricted to the Jews, those who call themselves Jews and who live in the Jewish State of Israel.
Thinking that they are, is a complete contradiction of all the OT Promises given to each of the 12 tribes from Jacob.

While I do believe that God has kept note of the actual descendants of Jacob, the only real requirement to be an Israelite of God, is to have faith and to trust in Jesus. Galatians 3:26-29 makes this abundantly clear.

It is sheer nonsense and false teaching to say that the current citizens in the Land of Israel, are the only recipients of God's promises to all of Israel. Bible prophecy is plain: Only a remnant of them; the ones who have accepted Christianity now, will survive the forthcoming Lord's Day of fiery wrath. Romans 9:27, Isaiah 29:1-4, Zephaniah 1:14-18, +

Don't forget the 10 lost tribes of Israel which are now "scattered among the nations". Ezekiel 37:15-28 tells of the rejoining of the lost northern tribes of Israel (back in the Land), with the believing remnant of Judah and the tiny tribe of Benjamin in the Millennial Kingdom. David will be their "Prince" under the King of Kings, Jesus the Messiah.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Matt 24 doesn't speak of a rapture 7 years before this final return, but Dispensationalists insist it must. But in truth, it only 'must' so that their doctrine jigsaw will fit.

The gospel of Matthew is generally considered to be the gospel to the Jews. Why would the Rapture be a feature of that gospel since most of Judah will NOT experience the Pre-Tribulation Rapture?