Could the disciples have lost their salvation?

[Hisman]

So then death is the end of everything for you?

I took him to mean that so many christians are wait for heaven before they start enjoying God.
While some of us enjoy him all the way through life. Today, is the day. .
Maybe I got him wrong, it's happens.

 

[ScottA]

Greetings all, and blessings in Christ!

This is a continuation thread from one I started recently on the Parable of the Unmerciful Servant. In it, there was the suggestion that the servant of the Lord could be given over to "tormentors" if he refused to walk in forgiveness. Arguments were presented that these tormentors could not be demons since it would insinuate that a servant of God could be cast into Hell and thus lose his salvation.

I have a follow up question: What was the Lord telling His disciples in this passage then? The reference here is even more suggestive of eternal torment, should they disobey Him and turn to using their spiritual authority to abuse His church:

45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. 47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, 51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 24:45-51)
_____________________________________

To any for whom this thread may cause concern, it is not intended to create doubts in anyone's minds about their salvation. I believe those who are His have nothing to fear, provided they can abide by a few simple and reasonable rules. But there are a few things I believe He will not tolerate under any circumstances, and one of them is mentioned here. When His spiritual leaders turn to abusing His people instead of feeding and nurturing them spiritually, I believe their reward will be eternal suffering, where there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

NOTE: Please answer the question in the OP before proceeding with any discussion: What was the Lord referring to by saying He would cut them in two and appoint them their portion with the hypocrites, where there would be weeping and gnashing of teeth?

Blessings in Christ to all who respond.

By these questions, you have entered the area of spiritual nuance and the tertiary things of God.

"A house divided will fall." If the Son divides a house...or cuts the temple of a man "in two"...it/he will fall.

But the greatest thing to understand about these passages, is that the Lord has even employed "evil servants" among the good. Which is according to the prophecy of Joel, of God pouring "out His spirit upon ALL flesh", good or bad...which He does working "all things together for good, for those who love Him."

 

[Enoch111]

Could the disciples have lost their salvation?

Short Answer: NO

Note: Here we have an EVIL servant. Not a lazy servant or an unforgiving servant but a plain evil servant. Which means that outwardly this man may have claimed to be a Christian, but inwardly he was not converted, hence "evil" (one of the tares). Therefore he was consigned to Hell.

Judas Iscariot was also an evil, unconverted servant, hence "a devil" and "the Son of Perdition" (consigned to Hell). Outwardly he was an apostle, and it was only after his act of betrayal that his true character was revealed.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Now here they were actually gnashing their teeth because of the message Stephen preached,

Yes see your point “Actually” literally...

yet also Spiritually. Galatians 5:15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

 

[Hidden In Him]

So what is gained by "grace" is lost by works. Which means that to keep that grace, one must do the right works, abstaining from the wrong works. Is that right?

Much love!
Mark

I don't think works are ever really in view. I just think unforgiveness fouls up grace, LoL.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Short Answer: NO

Note: Here we have an EVIL servant. Not a lazy servant or an unforgiving servant but a plain evil servant. Which means that outwardly this man may have claimed to be a Christian, but inwardly he was not converted, hence "evil" (one of the tares). Therefore he was consigned to Hell.

Judas Iscariot was also an evil, unconverted servant, hence "a devil" and "the Son of Perdition" (consigned to Hell). Outwardly he was an apostle, and it was only after his act of betrayal that his true character was revealed.

Ok, now I agree with you that Iscariot was one of the twelve and wicked. But now, if this is who He was driving at, what was His point in telling this parable to the disciples? In His foreknowledge, the Lord would have already known Judas would be a betrayer, and never live to see His return, whereas the parable is a warning about being obedient until the Lord's return.

 

[marks]

I don't think works are ever really in view. I just think unforgiveness fouls up grace, LoL.

But isn't forgiving others something that we either do or don't do?

Much love!
Mark

 

[marks]

I don't think we should mix the idea of the servant that Jesus was referring to, and a born again child of God.

The nation was likened to husbandmen who kept the vineyard, tenants who owed the landlord his due. Deny his due, and he casts them out.

The leaders were likened to house managers, who were responsible for taking care of the others. Eat and drink with the drunkards, beat your fellow servants, and you lose your place when the master returns.

Much love!
mark

 

[Hidden In Him]

But the greatest thing to understand about these passages, is that the Lord has even employed "evil servants" among the good. Which is according to the prophecy of Joel, of God pouring "out His spirit upon ALL flesh", good or bad...which He does working "all things together for good, for those who love Him."

Oh boy... Blessings, Scott. Enoch's post about Judas being among the 12 does support the idea of at least 1 evil disciple being among the good, but this verse you are quoting doesn't support the principle you are trying to establish. "All flesh" in Joel 2:28 doesn't mean the wicked and unregenerate. It refers to flesh of all age-groups amongst believers, as the context bears out. To interpret "all flesh" to mean everyone on earth would include people like child-sacrificing Satanists who want nothing to do with God, and are rather dedicated to blaspheming His name and doing everything in their power to undermine His work.

I've heard this interpretation before, but sadly I have to say it is taken sorely out of context.

Blessings again, and I hope I'm not coming off as disrespectful. Just pointing out the weaknesses in that interpretation.

 

[Hidden In Him]

But isn't forgiving others something that we either do or don't do?

Yes, it is something we do, but to define it as a "work" trails off into precisely where I suspected you were going, LoL.

Again, works do not save us. Only the grace of God saves. The question is will we be recipients of it or not. Just because we do not cancel it out by exceedingly sinful behavior in the eyes of the Lord doesn't mean we are saved by not doing so.

The leaders were likened to house managers, who were responsible for taking care of the others. Eat and drink with the drunkards, beat your fellow servants, and you lose your place when the master returns.

Ok, but then this goes back to the question of what He meant by saying they would be cut in pieces and appointed their portion with the hypocrites (a term used frequently of the Pharisees), where there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. What did you say this represented again? I forgot...

 

[marks]

Yes, it is something we do, but to define it as a "work" trails off into precisely where I suspected you were going, LoL.

But what is a "work" other than something we "do" in response to God's commandment?

Again, works do not save us. Only the grace of God saves. The question is will we be recipients of it or not. Just because we do not cancel it out by exceedingly sinful behavior in the eyes of the Lord doesn't mean we are saved by it.

Isn't it like putting a down payment on a car, then keeping up the payments until it's yours?

You are saying that works don't save us, but works - avoiding the wrong works - is what keeps us saved.

So what is ultimately responsible for our salvation?

Jesus gives grace. But I keep that grace be being a good boy. So I did it!! Yay for me!!!!

Ok, but then this goes back to the question of what He meant by saying they would be cut in pieces and appointed their portion with the hypocrites (a term used frequently of the Pharisees), where there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. What did you say this represented again? I forgot...

It would be not being saved, I believe.

Remember, I don't try to match every detail of a parable with a theology. If you do that you'll run into trouble with the "parable of the unjust judge". God is not unjust.

much love!
mark

 

[Episkopos]

Oh boy... Blessings, Scott. Enoch's post about Judas being among the 12 does support the idea of at least 1 evil disciple being among the good, but this verse you are quoting doesn't support the principle you are trying to establish. "All flesh" in Joel 2:28 doesn't mean the wicked and unregenerate. It refers to flesh of all age-groups amongst believers, as the context bears out. To interpret "all flesh" to mean everyone on earth would include people like child-sacrificing Satanists who want nothing to do with God, and are rather dedicated to blaspheming His name and doing everything in their power to undermine His work.

I've heard this interpretation before, but sadly I have to say it is taken sorely out of context.

Blessings again, and I hope I'm not coming off as disrespectful. Just pointing out the weaknesses in that interpretation.

Are you saying that God does not justify the ungodly?

 

[Hidden In Him]

But what is a "work" other than something we "do" in response to God's commandment?

The expression "works" was used in association with works of the law, i.e. Mosaic law. My position is that we have to be careful not to mix contexts, but interpret in light of each individual passage. The word "works" never appears in our current passage, so I think applying "works" theology isn't applicable to the context.

Isn't it like putting a down payment on a car, then keeping up the payments until it's yours?

UCK! (LoL).

Trust me. I wouldn't be teaching that, LoL.

You are saying that works don't save us, but works - avoiding the wrong works - is what keeps us saved.

Again, you are transferring the doctrines regarding works vs faith over into this discussion, and defining not spiritually abusing the church as a "work." I don't think it fits.

It would be not being saved, I believe.

I gotta go, but I'll try and catch up to this when I get back.

Blessings in Christ, and thanks for the discussion.

 

[marks]

By these questions, you have entered the area of spiritual nuance and the tertiary things of God.

"A house divided will fall." If the Son divides a house...or cuts the temple of a man "in two"...it/he will fall.

But the greatest thing to understand about these passages, is that the Lord has even employed "evil servants" among the good. Which is according to the prophecy of Joel, of God pouring "out His spirit upon ALL flesh", good or bad...which He does working "all things together for good, for those who love Him."

So then God's Holy Spirit causes people to do evil? Am I understanding you correctly?

Much love!
Mark

 

[marks]

The expression "works" was used in association with works of the law, i.e. Mosaic law. My position is that we have to be careful not to mix contexts, but interpret in light of each individual passage. The word "works" never appears in our current passage, so I think applying "works" theology isn't applicable to the context.

I speaking of "works" in the sense of Ephesians 2, "not of works lest any man should boast".

Gift as opposed to earned.

Credit is entirely His, as opposed to being shared by me.

You are applying this passage to salvation, and I don't think that's correct, and that it introduces a works doctrine into our soteriology.

Much love!
mark

 

[VictoryinJesus]

By these questions, you have entered the area of spiritual nuance and the tertiary things of God.

"A house divided will fall." If the Son divides a house...or cuts the temple of a man "in two"...it/he will fall.

But the greatest thing to understand about these passages, is that the Lord has even employed "evil servants" among the good. Which is according to the prophecy of Joel, of God pouring "out His spirit upon ALL flesh", good or bad...which He does working "all things together for good, for those who love Him."

See what you are saying in the messenger of satan sent, served Paul not the other way around...in keeping Paul from being exalted above measure. Judas also in John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

But was this only in the NT ...consider Job. Many more OT passages...and even in the garden: Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

 

[ScottA]

Oh boy... Blessings, Scott. Enoch's post about Judas being among the 12 does support the idea of at least 1 evil disciple being among the good, but this verse you are quoting doesn't support the principle you are trying to establish. "All flesh" in Joel 2:28 doesn't mean the wicked and unregenerate. It refers to flesh of all age-groups amongst believers, as the context bears out. To interpret "all flesh" to mean everyone on earth would include people like child-sacrificing Satanists who want nothing to do with God, and are rather dedicated to blaspheming His name and doing everything in their power to undermine His work.

I've heard this interpretation before, but sadly I have to say it is taken sorely out of context.

Blessings again, and I hope I'm not coming off as disrespectful. Just pointing out the weaknesses in that interpretation.

Your emotions apparently have you blinded from being able to perceive that "all" means all. For the context is both good and evil, it is judgement both for Israel, as well as against those who are against her.

 

[ScottA]

So then God's Holy Spirit causes people to do evil? Am I understanding you correctly?

Much love!
Mark

Watering will cause both a good plant or a poisonous plant to grow. Likewise, power (or spirit) supercharging evil or good in ("all") the world, is all the more evil or good.

 

[marks]

Watering will cause both a good plant or a poisonous plant to grow. Likewise, power (or spirit) supercharging evil or good in ("all") the world, is all the more evil or good.

So that's a yes, God is the Author of sin?

God by His Holy Spirit empowers sinners to sin greater sins?

I can't say I agree with that!

Much love!
mark

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Interesting post. How are you applying it then to the OP, sister?

Only that the apostles were men God knew would endure to the end, even unto death. But we must also endure to the end, and cannot take it for granted as some today do.