You can call it a theology test or a reality check. But no sinner can truly believe in the finished work of Christ for himself/herself without believing that the Man who was crucified was God, taking upon Himself the sins of the world. Only God could accomplish this work of redemption. And this is all a part of the SIMPLE GOSPEL, not a theology test.
The necessity of the Trinity
- Thread starter SovereignGrace
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A simple theology test is still a theology test.
Note: I am not hating on this position, just stating what it is. I VERY firmly believe that Christ is the Son of God, and that fact is *extremely* important.
We all need to grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ (2 Peter 3); God sees the heart, but also gives us some clear Biblical markers.
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
I believe John 17:3 is self explanatory, Jesus was very clear. He said nothing about a third person, but of course imperfect people seem to think they know better than him. If a third person was necessary in order to to gain eternal life I believe Jesus would've made that clear in this scripture.
Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
Charles Taze Russel has deceived a lot of people. You'd think the person would look into church history, see what the church believed, compare it with Scripture, study without Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society assistance &c and come to the knowledge of the truth.
But this goes to show the natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit, 1 Corinthians 2:14. Truth has not yet been revealed to @BARNEY BRIGHT. Note Matthew 11:25-30.
CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
Russell is a cult founder. As was Joseph Smith.
And I believe John Calvin, as do many others.
And you're wrong that the natural man cannot share in the Holy Spirit. The Bible says they can and do.
This does an excellent job of explaining it.
101G
Well-Known Member
@Soverign Grace, and BARNEY BRIGHT.
question, "the Lord Jesus cannot lie", right... right. so who sent the the Comforter, the Holy Spirit?, was it the one whom you calls the Father, or was it the Lord Jesus who sent the comforter. we suggest you read these following scriptures before you answer.
John 14:26, John 15:26, John 16:7. ok, who sent the Comforter, now just one more, John 14:18.
PICJAG.
question, "the Lord Jesus cannot lie", right... right. so who sent the the Comforter, the Holy Spirit?, was it the one whom you calls the Father, or was it the Lord Jesus who sent the comforter. we suggest you read these following scriptures before you answer.
John 14:26, John 15:26, John 16:7. ok, who sent the Comforter, now just one more, John 14:18.
PICJAG.
CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
101G
Well-Known Member
the answer is right under his nose which he didn't see, Hebrews 6:6 "If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame".
"RENEW" not "RESTORE" unto repentance, big diffrence.
PICJAG.
101G
Well-Known Member
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
yeah because people say Jesus wasn't clear when he said John 17:3. I know people make mistakes, I expect that to happen. Most other people, other than Jehovah's Witnesses seem to think they're infallible when it comes to the scriptures. Me I grew up in the Baptist and Pentecostal church and I never knew they were teaching it was God who became flesh, which means as far as I'm concerned they're denying it was The Son of God who became flesh. I have always believed it was The Son of God who became flesh died for me and then was resurrected by God three days later and this is why I have eternal life if I believe that. I'm not going to stop believing that. Speak about Charles Russel, Jehovah's Witnesses all you want, unlike you they all believe it was The Son of God who became flesh came to us and died for our sins. You and others think it was Charles Russel or Jehovah's Witnesses that convinced me it was The Son of God who became flesh, I've always believed that before I knew who Charles Russel or Jehovah's Witnesses were.
Time to continue with the truth of spirit.....of the so-called trinity model
"If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me." - John 8:54
The non-trinitarian reads this verse and says the Father of his Son, who is our Lord Jesus (the) Christ, is the only God.
The trinitarian reads this verse and says wait a minute (let me get my holy model loaded in the chamber first) , this is not really what is says, it really means this….
Yes, after a lot of steam, and usually with loud hollow talk this verse eventually gets trashed, as a few dozen others for the same reason.
It gets graffitied over with three layers of words drawn from pagan philosophers: of hypostasis that is akin to metaphysics, of incarnation that is akin to the Greek mythological man-god hero saviour, and lastly with trinity model that is akin to the pagan Nimrod model, spattered all over it, that says, there are three, the Father is God and Jesus is God, and even the Holy Spirit is God, just in case, even though it does not say this in this particular verse. (yes, the Spirit is of God who is also the Father only).
I have learned over the years that a Trinitarian has no patience with scripture pointers that have the audacity to say they are wrong. They must think they cannot allow these bible thumpers to ever dismantle their model of their god - disrespecting their idol of worship. Besides, they have had a great and practical model of their God for nearly 1500 years now. It has done right by them and has kept them religious believer folks. Those blasphemers need to go to….
Blessings to those already in Christ and those still seeking the Father's presence
APAK
"If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me." - John 8:54
The non-trinitarian reads this verse and says the Father of his Son, who is our Lord Jesus (the) Christ, is the only God.
The trinitarian reads this verse and says wait a minute (let me get my holy model loaded in the chamber first) , this is not really what is says, it really means this….
Yes, after a lot of steam, and usually with loud hollow talk this verse eventually gets trashed, as a few dozen others for the same reason.
It gets graffitied over with three layers of words drawn from pagan philosophers: of hypostasis that is akin to metaphysics, of incarnation that is akin to the Greek mythological man-god hero saviour, and lastly with trinity model that is akin to the pagan Nimrod model, spattered all over it, that says, there are three, the Father is God and Jesus is God, and even the Holy Spirit is God, just in case, even though it does not say this in this particular verse. (yes, the Spirit is of God who is also the Father only).
I have learned over the years that a Trinitarian has no patience with scripture pointers that have the audacity to say they are wrong. They must think they cannot allow these bible thumpers to ever dismantle their model of their god - disrespecting their idol of worship. Besides, they have had a great and practical model of their God for nearly 1500 years now. It has done right by them and has kept them religious believer folks. Those blasphemers need to go to….
Blessings to those already in Christ and those still seeking the Father's presence
APAK
101G
Well-Known Member
people claim that they obey the "TRUTH", and "BELIEVE" the word of God ... untill it come to what their man made doctrine say.
PICJAG.
PICJAG.
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
while I agree that the Holy Spirit helps us to understand the truths regarding The True God and the one God sent Jesus Christ, John 17:3 doesn't say When Jesus was praying, this is eternal life that they know thee The True God and the one whom you sent Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. As I said Jesus was very clear when he talked about what was necessary to gain eternal life. If the Holy Spirit was a person we needed to get to know like the True God and his Son Jesus Christ it's reasonable he would have included that in this scripture, plus what is written in the scriptures which God used his Holy Spirit to inspire tell us that he who denies The Father and the Son is the antichrist. Don't you think since God used the Holy Spirit to Write the scriptures he would have had it written that he who denies the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit is the antichrist if the Holy Spirit is a person we need to get to know like the True God and his Son Jesus Christ?
There were and are only two and not one being, split into two parts or even three for those that though Jesus might have 2 or even, 3 natures; Regardless of who believes that God morphed into two parts then back into one again of the exact same being whenever convenient it still sounds a bit like Modalism, as it is a cousin of Trinitarian-ism in the rudimentary less complex state or view.
Jesus ≠ God and God ≠ Jesus. They are two different beings with the same purpose(s) for mankind’s salvation: God the Father, and the Son of God, his Father.
Some ‘clear’ scripture again as support:
Acts 7:55, 56, Col 3:1 ..two in heaven today: Jesus is at the right hand of God his Father. I believe there are two...who said there is only one?
John 8:14-19 ..two witness, not one...I believe Jesus when he said he is one witness and the other is his Father. Who said there is really only one witness here?
Rev 5:5-7 …Jesus taking the book from the Father..I believe this means that Jesus is not God in heaven today and in the future. They have always been two,,,no morphing into one God here....who said that Jesus was both the holder and receiver of the book?
Much to think about..I would think...
Blessings,
APAK
Jesus ≠ God and God ≠ Jesus. They are two different beings with the same purpose(s) for mankind’s salvation: God the Father, and the Son of God, his Father.
Some ‘clear’ scripture again as support:
Acts 7:55, 56, Col 3:1 ..two in heaven today: Jesus is at the right hand of God his Father. I believe there are two...who said there is only one?
John 8:14-19 ..two witness, not one...I believe Jesus when he said he is one witness and the other is his Father. Who said there is really only one witness here?
Rev 5:5-7 …Jesus taking the book from the Father..I believe this means that Jesus is not God in heaven today and in the future. They have always been two,,,no morphing into one God here....who said that Jesus was both the holder and receiver of the book?
Much to think about..I would think...
Blessings,
APAK
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
You judge all you want, but I don't believe you to be God or his Only begotten Son and no matter how much you judge you're just a imperfect person like everyone else and your judging is imperfect
Ask 20 people who have been Christians for decades, to describe this 'triune God', and you will get at least a half a dozen different answers, along with some nuances in between. Not more than 5 or so of those experienced or learned mature Christians would agree on what the trinity means. Not even of you chose Christians with letters after their names to prove their ecclesiastical expertise.
Even the creeds differ, and peoples understanding of those creeds differ. There is no universal agreement on how or what the 'trinity' is, in the way it is comprised, or in the way it is represented to man. Why is that? Because all 20 people you are asking are giving their human interpretation to a human formulaic invention which was from the beginning impossible for its creators to fully comprehend, and impossible for them to write in a manner that anyone else could fully comprehend. That situation hasn't changed.
The truth is, if Christians were humble enough to admit it, is that none of us will ever fully understand God, even in eternity. He is beyond finding out. And our feeble attempts to formularise the Godhead in such a fashion as to make it a rule of faith and to ostracise those who don't accept it borders on blasphemy. We need to walk very softly when discussing the nature of God...and to shun any attempt to standardise our opinions.
The Bible does provide ample information on who God is for us to attain to a certain degree of certainty that we can 'know' Him. The apostkle John, in his gospel and his letters, was rebutting certain arguments re the gnostic heresies that were creeping into the church, and John's theology was simple, clear, concise, and more than that, understandable. It is when we go beyond what is written, and attempt to delve into territory and gain understanding into things not revealed, that we get into trouble.
1Jo 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jo 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
1Jo 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
1Jo 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
2Jo 1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
That the Son is God is proved in John's gospel. Within orthodoxy, the belief is maintained that the Son is of (meaning belonging to) the same substance as the Father. This is something that is not revealed in Scripture but it was the reasoning that led to the formulation of the Creed of Nicaea (AD 325). These two beliefs therefore (everlastingly begotten, also of the same substance) are purely human speculation (that which is not revealed by God). This is the entire problem with the orthodox trinity doctrine. It is based on speculation. Remove the speculation and there is no trinity doctrine.
Harvest 1874
Well-Known Member
Nothing in any of the various titles and descriptions of the Holy Spirit substantiates the popular conception of the Holy Spirit as a third God. The various designations, “Spirit of Truth,” “Spirit of Love,” etc., are plainly used in contrast with the opposite spirit, “The Spirit of Error,” “The Spirit of Fear,” “The Spirit of Bondage,” “The Spirit of the World,” “The Spirit of Antichrist.” There is no more justification for saying that the Holy Spirit is a divine person than for saying that these descriptions of the wrong spirit or disposition represent one or more additional devils.
It is at least highly conspicuous that the Apostle Paul omits to mention the Holy Spirit in his summary of divinity in 1 Cor 8:5-6:
“For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.”
Didn’t the Apostle know that the so-called third person of the Godhead was to be equally honored?
Paul opens all of his epistles (except Hebrews) with greetings from the Father and the Son ONLY. Why is this?
The Holy Spirit does not send greetings because it is not a person.
Why does our Lord not mention the Holy Spirit when he states that in order to gain eternal life it is only necessary to know two persons?
“And this is life eternal, that they might know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.” (John 17:3)
Nowhere in the Bible is the Holy Spirit called God.
We cannot overemphasize how clearly the Scriptures teach that the Holy Spirit is NOT a person, but the Spirit OF a person, whether of the Father of Glory or of his beloved Son or of those possessed of his spirit.
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John's Gospel and John's First Epistle, for example, are full of God in Three Persons. Ephesians 4.30 speaks of not grieving the Holy Spirit. This is the quality of a Person, to have feelings, to be grieved.
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