The Book of James, an opinion

[bbyrd009]

I guess as a general rule, whenever one reads a term where we have a widely accepted definition--which "law" is hardly that, eh? but regardless--one should go and see which of the many original terms are being referred to by that English word? We have 5 different words in Hebrew, Greek, or Aramaic that are xlated "belief," and that is not including where pistis is xlated Belief, which is basically everywhere now, our "bibles" are completely infected with it now I guess

Whenever you read "law" in english, prolly particularly when it is capitalized, trust that you are about to get hosed by some scribe ok. Lots of diff words for our word "law."

 

[Episkopos]

Concerning real faith, Jesus said that mountains would be moved....amazing things that are real and happen in reality and truth. Paul confirms this reality check...

5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Paul worked miracles by faith. Real miracles. Notice how Paul goes on to cite Abraham....not the way the deluded do...but in the context of the miraculous.

But somehow this faith and the power that proves it is rejected in favour of a delusional belief that has no power but to deceive.

The problem people have with James is that it is too clear. His words are hard to mis-interpret.

Faith without miraculous works...is dead. It is NOT faith. All religious beliefs are delusions if they are used to justify the believer who in them. Beliefs are dead. Faith works miracles because biblical faith is connected with the living God. Beliefs are attached to dead dogmas.

Even the fruit of the Spirit...is still miraculous. People mistake what they do in their own strength all the time for something that comes from heaven. People tend to get the scale of things wrong.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Hebrews 4:1-2
[1] Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. [2] For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it .

“...did not profit them...” = flesh with no Spirit. The flesh is unprofitable. It is the Spirit which brings Life. “...mixed with faith...” = Spiritual “faith” given of God in a child born again. “His seed”. This is not “1 Corinthians 13:2 faith without love. “though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.”
“I am nothing”
“Unprofitable”
flesh withOUT the fruit of the Spirit(love) which is fulfillment of the Law. Apart from Entering into His rest at: it is no longer I, but God who works in me.

How then condemn someone for lacking when it is “the fruit of the Spirit of God” which fulfills the Law ...not works of the flesh or of man. THE FRUIT of the Spirit...He(God) produces the very fulfillment of the requirements that FULLY satisfy the two commands Matthew 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
^
You want to talk about faith that is NOT dead. BY the Fruits of the Spirit (Mixed with faith) the entire Law is fulfilled by the LIVING God: Galatians 5:22-23
[22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, [23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Faith without miraculous works...is dead.

faith without the fruit of the Spirit is dead. Belief without being “mixed with faith” or faith to move mountains but no love...is nothing. Seems reasonable then when He said “you will know them by their fruit.” —the Spiritual fruits listed in the word. Where there is the Spiritual fruit of God who works in and through a child (as Paul) there is Living faith (Spirit)that saves.

Paul didn’t do the miracles...the Spirit did the miracles. We don’t plant our own righteousness; we plant His righteousness. We don’t plant our “namesake”; we plant “His namesake”...”anything you ask in ‘My Name’ the Father will give it. We don’t establish our own righteousness; we establish His righteousness.

Not that He needs the children to establish His righteousness but ‘in and through the Holy Spirit within the child’ His Kingdom is prospered...increased.

2 Corinthians 10:5
[5] Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

The children establish “the obedience of Christ.” The Children bring every thought captive, submitting themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Romans 10:3-4
[3] For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. [4] For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

James 2:20-21
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
(NKJ)

Okay, then how do you explain this?
He was accounted righteous before God several years earlier, BEFORE the birth of Isaac, and before he had done anything to "prove" his faith in God. Check it out in Genesis 15;4-6 below..

Genesis 15:4-6
4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir."
5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."
6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
(NKJ)

It seems that God accounted him righteous solely for his faith in His Promises, and not by anything that he did. There is nothing in Genesis 15 that mentions any works that Abraham did. Paul accurately reports this. It seems that James did not consider the account in Genesis 15. It was not until Genesis 22, many years after Isaac was born, when Abraham was well over 100 years old, that he agreed to offer Isaac.

James writes:
22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.
23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.
24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

Neither of those last two statements are in the Genesis 15:4-6 account.
Nowhere does the OT Scripture say that Abraham "was called God's friend" BECAUSE he was willing to offer up his son Isaac. In Isaiah 41:8 it states that God called Abraham His friend but nowhere in the context of the chapter does He say it was because Abraham offered up his son Isaac.

What James wrote, as shown above, are direct contradiction of the Gospel that Paul taught and the account given in Genesis 15:4-6. Abraham was righteous before God solely because he believed God’s promises.

The religious who advocate works can argue this until they are blue in the face but it does not change the FACTS as shown in Genesis.

In my opinion the book of James is devoid of the gospel of grace as taught by Paul.

However, it was compatible with the law of Moses. Since the word of God has to be based on truth, I find the book of James is not based on FAITH in Christ’s work on the cross but only on works of the law and is not for this age of God’s grace. The very fact that it was addressed to Jews (James 1:1) is more proof that it was only for the Jews who were under the law.

It remains to be seen that the religious will try to destroy what I have written by attacking me, personally, and it will show that they want people to believe we are under the law in this age of God’s grace. They can easily attack me but they can not say that the scriptures I have presented do not say what I have reported them to say.

Under grace a person must place their faith (belief) in God’s promise of salvation based on their belief in what He (Jesus) did on the cross where He paid for the sins of the whole world. Through the gospel of grace that was given to Paul God, Himself, paid for the sins of the world and a person has to believe it to have salvation. If they do not then they are condemned because they do not believe God.

Written by H. Richard 2019

Richard, do you deny the fruit of the Spirit? Not asking about man’s good works but the fruit of the Spirit?

Do you deny that where there is living faith there will also be living fruit of the Spirit of the Living God? Would you agree where there is no living fruit, there is no Life and faith without Life is then faith that is dead and not alive in God?

 

[bbyrd009]

faith without the fruit of the Spirit is dead.

Seems like an awfully laborious way to say faith w/o works is dead wadr

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Seems like an awfully laborious way to say faith w/o works is dead wadr

Not laborious but to avoid any room for distortion.

 

[bbyrd009]

Not laborious but to avoid any room for distortion.

Ok. Would be nice to see a discussion of works here someday that recognizes the diff in, um, "I think I'm going to go do something for Jesus today" and "I should be doing this thing, that I have been doing the opposite of until now."

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Ok. Would be nice to see a discussion of works here someday that recognizes the diff in, um, "I think I'm going to go do something for Jesus today" and "I should be doing this thing, that I have been doing the opposite of until now."

Does it matter? If man truly gets it is His work that sent him...the work of the Spirit of God ...then why would man glory as if man did or produced something of his own flesh apart from the blessings and works of God. Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Romans 8:1-2
[1] There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [2] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

...what is our part. Can’t MAkE someone born again. Isn’t our part to tell others He is alive and that we serve THE Living God who is alive and not dead! To praise His name! Then why do we so often pour anxious fuel on someone that they are not producing what they can’t produce but only God can and will perform in them? His burden is light in the Spirit does it. Yet we often want to cast a heavy burden on another instead of planting “God is alive!” <There is the power.

No serving dead idols of flesh.
But serving: the Living God.

 

[H. Richard]

Richard, do you deny the fruit of the Spirit? Not asking about man’s good works but the fruit of the Spirit?

Do you deny that where there is living faith there will also be living fruit of the Spirit of the Living God? Would you agree where there is no living fruit, there is no Life and faith without Life is then faith that is dead and not alive in God?

Fruits of the spirit are not works of man to gain from them. They are attitudes of the heart. IMHO there are some on this forum that show they do not have fruits of the spirit. Their fruit is their opinion or the highway.

Gal 5:22-23
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
NKJV

 

[Marymog]

James 2:20-21
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
(NKJ)

Okay, then how do you explain this?
He was accounted righteous before God several years earlier, BEFORE the birth of Isaac, and before he had done anything to "prove" his faith in God. Check it out in Genesis 15;4-6 below..

Genesis 15:4-6
4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir."
5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."
6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
(NKJ)

It seems that God accounted him righteous solely for his faith in His Promises, and not by anything that he did. There is nothing in Genesis 15 that mentions any works that Abraham did. Paul accurately reports this. It seems that James did not consider the account in Genesis 15. It was not until Genesis 22, many years after Isaac was born, when Abraham was well over 100 years old, that he agreed to offer Isaac.

James writes:
22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.
23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.
24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

Neither of those last two statements are in the Genesis 15:4-6 account.
Nowhere does the OT Scripture say that Abraham "was called God's friend" BECAUSE he was willing to offer up his son Isaac. In Isaiah 41:8 it states that God called Abraham His friend but nowhere in the context of the chapter does He say it was because Abraham offered up his son Isaac.

What James wrote, as shown above, are direct contradiction of the Gospel that Paul taught and the account given in Genesis 15:4-6. Abraham was righteous before God solely because he believed God’s promises.

The religious who advocate works can argue this until they are blue in the face but it does not change the FACTS as shown in Genesis.

In my opinion the book of James is devoid of the gospel of grace as taught by Paul.

However, it was compatible with the law of Moses. Since the word of God has to be based on truth, I find the book of James is not based on FAITH in Christ’s work on the cross but only on works of the law and is not for this age of God’s grace. The very fact that it was addressed to Jews (James 1:1) is more proof that it was only for the Jews who were under the law.

It remains to be seen that the religious will try to destroy what I have written by attacking me, personally, and it will show that they want people to believe we are under the law in this age of God’s grace. They can easily attack me but they can not say that the scriptures I have presented do not say what I have reported them to say.

Under grace a person must place their faith (belief) in God’s promise of salvation based on their belief in what He (Jesus) did on the cross where He paid for the sins of the whole world. Through the gospel of grace that was given to Paul God, Himself, paid for the sins of the world and a person has to believe it to have salvation. If they do not then they are condemned because they do not believe God.

Written by H. Richard 2019

An opinion...

James states, “Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? (James 2:21 KJV). James thinks Abraham was not justified in Genesis 15 or 17, but much later in Genesis 22, when he offered up Isaac.



We know the Judaizers were trying to make Gentiles become “Jews” first, before they became Christians. They were saying one became a Christian by observing all the laws of the Jewish religion. Paul was not arguing salvation by faith vs. faith plus obedience! He was saying, “Did Abraham become righteous by circumcision and obedience to the Ten Commandments? No, he was reckoned as righteous way before these things existed. How was he made righteous? By believing God while virtually in the state of being a Gentile, why? Because there were no Jews yet, no law yet, no circumcision yet. If Abraham was right before God before the Law, why is it impossible for the Gentile to be right for God apart from works of The Law?

Abraham was justified as a Gentile (non-Jew) and did not have to become a Jew first, before he could be justified in God’s eyes.

How could the Gentile converts become justified? Did they have to get circumcised and follow all the Jewish legal and ceremonial laws before God would justify them? Did they have to become Jews to become Christians? No, they could be justified just like Abraham was; by faith.

James then elaborates what faith is and the crucial element of obedience (works), as does John in his first epistle.

If we look only at what James says about faith and works, he isn’t saying anything innovative. He’s saying the same thing as John the Baptist and Jesus. (Matt. 3:7-10, 19:16-19, Mark 10:17-19, Luke 3:7-14, 18:18-20, John 15:1-11). In other words, merely believing is not enough; you have to live your faith.


Bible study Mary

 

[bbyrd009]

No serving dead idols of flesh.
But serving: the Living God.

Ok

 

[bbyrd009]

Fruits of the spirit are not works of man to gain from them. They are attitudes of the heart. IMHO there are some on this forum that show they do not have fruits of the spirit. Their fruit is their opinion or the highway.

Gal 5:22-23
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
NKJV

Gonna be kinda hard to posit long suffering as no work imo, but whatever serves you ok.
Sounds like mostly hair-splitting to me wadr

And, all of the other Scriptures assuring us that works are a part of faith should get a hearing at least imo; ready to talk about them yet?

 

[farouk]

James 2:20-21
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
(NKJ)

Okay, then how do you explain this?
He was accounted righteous before God several years earlier, BEFORE the birth of Isaac, and before he had done anything to "prove" his faith in God. Check it out in Genesis 15;4-6 below..

Genesis 15:4-6
4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir."
5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."
6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
(NKJ)

It seems that God accounted him righteous solely for his faith in His Promises, and not by anything that he did. There is nothing in Genesis 15 that mentions any works that Abraham did. Paul accurately reports this. It seems that James did not consider the account in Genesis 15. It was not until Genesis 22, many years after Isaac was born, when Abraham was well over 100 years old, that he agreed to offer Isaac.

James writes:
22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.
23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.
24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

Neither of those last two statements are in the Genesis 15:4-6 account.
Nowhere does the OT Scripture say that Abraham "was called God's friend" BECAUSE he was willing to offer up his son Isaac. In Isaiah 41:8 it states that God called Abraham His friend but nowhere in the context of the chapter does He say it was because Abraham offered up his son Isaac.

What James wrote, as shown above, are direct contradiction of the Gospel that Paul taught and the account given in Genesis 15:4-6. Abraham was righteous before God solely because he believed God’s promises.

The religious who advocate works can argue this until they are blue in the face but it does not change the FACTS as shown in Genesis.

In my opinion the book of James is devoid of the gospel of grace as taught by Paul.

However, it was compatible with the law of Moses. Since the word of God has to be based on truth, I find the book of James is not based on FAITH in Christ’s work on the cross but only on works of the law and is not for this age of God’s grace. The very fact that it was addressed to Jews (James 1:1) is more proof that it was only for the Jews who were under the law.

It remains to be seen that the religious will try to destroy what I have written by attacking me, personally, and it will show that they want people to believe we are under the law in this age of God’s grace. They can easily attack me but they can not say that the scriptures I have presented do not say what I have reported them to say.

Under grace a person must place their faith (belief) in God’s promise of salvation based on their belief in what He (Jesus) did on the cross where He paid for the sins of the whole world. Through the gospel of grace that was given to Paul God, Himself, paid for the sins of the world and a person has to believe it to have salvation. If they do not then they are condemned because they do not believe God.

Written by H. Richard 2019

But Paul in Romans speaks also of 'the obedience of faith' and 'obedience to the faith' at the beginning and end of the Epistle. Denying the Spirit-inspired and Apostolic authorship of the Epistle of James is no way to go.

 

[farouk]

Works are the completion of justifying faith. Faith is not real apart from them.

It's like the serial polygamist all too common in professedly evangelical churches who, each time he or she gets divorced and remarried says, 'Oh, so sorry', but then continues to behave in the same way.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Gonna be kinda hard to posit long suffering as no work imo, but whatever serves you ok.

Who says suffering has no work, question is whose work is it? Without Spirit suffering is in vain. What profit does suffering have without the Spirit of God? Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, [23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. <going to find it difficult to insert flesh in there; when God says it is the fruit of the Spirit. Nowhere does He say it is the fruit of the flesh? That the fruit of the flesh is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, faith, meekness, temperance...

Jesus repeatedly said it was not His work but Him who sent Him. Repeatedly He attributed the work to the Spirit of God: even in that He had the power to lay down His life and take it up again. Being the power to do so was of the Spirit of God and not the body of flesh prepared for death. It is the Spirit that gives life. Not the flesh. He said His words are Spirit.

The Law is for the disobedient. The fruit of the Spirit of God fulfills the Law. Against Spirit there is no law since the Spirit of God which bears the fruit to begin with is not the disobedient... but man without the work of the Spirit is.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Consider the “works” of the flesh. And the “fruit” of the Spirit. Always wondered why God changed it from “works” to “fruits”? Why didn’t God just say the “works” of the flesh are these....and the “works” of the Spirit are these...and clear up a lot. but consider the significance in the change from “works” of the flesh ...to “fruit” supplied by the root of the Father.

 

[H. Richard]

But Paul in Romans speaks also of 'the obedience of faith' and 'obedience to the faith' at the beginning and end of the Epistle. Denying the Spirit-inspired and Apostolic authorship of the Epistle of James is no way to go.

farouk, I have not denied that the book of James was inspired by the Holy Spirit. I said so in the OP. What I have shown is that it was not written to be used in the grace church of His body. The Holy Spirit inspired James to say WHO IT IS WRITTEN TO (James 1:1) It was not written to the Gentiles under grace and it should not be used to make the children of God think that their salvation depends on their works.

This is so apparent in my writing but it seems that what I write makes the religious defend the book of James so that the religious can burden those under grace with the requirement to do works to gain salvation. IMHO when the religious do this it is an affront to God because Jesus did everything necessary for mans salvation on the cross. IMHO I don't think God appreciates man trying to share in Christ's glory.

 

[marks]

Hi @H. Richard,

I see James as showing not a salvation by works, but a salvation we can know is true by it's works. I don't see any conflict between James and the Gospel of grace.

But I think you are right about people thinking they need to defend James' authority. For myself, #97 helps me understand what you have in mind.

Much love!
Mark

 

[H. Richard]

An opinion...

James states, “Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? (James 2:21 KJV). James thinks Abraham was not justified in Genesis 15 or 17, but much later in Genesis 22, when he offered up Isaac.



We know the Judaizers were trying to make Gentiles become “Jews” first, before they became Christians. They were saying one became a Christian by observing all the laws of the Jewish religion. Paul was not arguing salvation by faith vs. faith plus obedience! He was saying, “Did Abraham become righteous by circumcision and obedience to the Ten Commandments? No, he was reckoned as righteous way before these things existed. How was he made righteous? By believing God while virtually in the state of being a Gentile, why? Because there were no Jews yet, no law yet, no circumcision yet. If Abraham was right before God before the Law, why is it impossible for the Gentile to be right for God apart from works of The Law?

Abraham was justified as a Gentile (non-Jew) and did not have to become a Jew first, before he could be justified in God’s eyes.

How could the Gentile converts become justified? Did they have to get circumcised and follow all the Jewish legal and ceremonial laws before God would justify them? Did they have to become Jews to become Christians? No, they could be justified just like Abraham was; by faith.

James then elaborates what faith is and the crucial element of obedience (works), as does John in his first epistle.

If we look only at what James says about faith and works, he isn’t saying anything innovative. He’s saying the same thing as John the Baptist and Jesus. (Matt. 3:7-10, 19:16-19, Mark 10:17-19, Luke 3:7-14, 18:18-20, John 15:1-11). In other words, merely believing is not enough; you have to live your faith.


Bible study Mary

If people would see that the 4 gospels were not the message of God's grace; that Jesus and the 12 never rescinded the Law of Moses. And that the Book of Acts is a transitional book from law to grace they would not be in so much controversy.

But most religious people can not see this change.

The children of God have been made children of God for simply believing God's message of grace given to Paul for us. Believing God's message of grace is being obedient to believing Jesus' work on the cross. It is the religious that want obedience to be in the works of the flesh.

It would seem to me that anyone reading the scriptures for what they say and not seeing that just as Eve did not believe God, just as Cain did not believe God. just as the Jews did not believe God when He (GOD) said to go into the land and He (GOD) would drive out the people living with Hornets, that today the only requirement for salvation is to believe God's message He sent to us through Paul..

 

[Enoch111]

But most religious people can not see this change.

Most born again Christians do not agree with your strange theology either. You say that the Gospels are not about God's grace, which is very telling. So you have two options (a) go back to square one and study the Gospels to discover the grace of God, or (b) persist in your confused beliefs and confuse others. But it is more than confusion. The Bible says it is deceiving and being deceived.