The Book of James, an opinion

[Helen]

I think everyone is entitled to an opinion...just not a follower of Christ.

And the trouble with that is, it falls flat.
The same "Followers of Christ" that you speak of , each has has a different view of any certain verse.
Much depends what teaching on said verse they were first taught when younger Christians. And which denomination he/she was in. It all colours our belief system.

Just because one sees the verse from one side, and one sees a verse from the other side ..does not disqualify them from being said- followers of Christ!
( as many here try to imply!)

Conflict come when arrogance get in, and said follower believes that only their view of the verse is the correct way and only way that it could possible be interpreted.

 

[Enoch111]

In my opinion the book of James is devoid of the gospel of grace as taught by Paul.

Well you are ENTIRELY MISTAKEN since there cannot be any conflict between the servants of God and Christ writing by divine inspiration, neither can there be any contradictions in Scripture.

Nowhere does the OT Scripture say that Abraham "was called God's friend"...

The Scripture quoted below refutes your claim above:
Art not thou our God, who didst drive out the inhabitants of this land before thy people Israel, and gavest it to the seed of Abraham thy friend for ever? (2 Chron 20:7).

So when a person begins to think that he is smarter than God, he has a very serious problem -- UNBELIEF. You do not believe that God inspired James to connect Abraham's sacrifice and God's friendship. And you do not believe that James was a servant of the Lord Jesus Christ which meant that he could not possible avoid or contradict the Gospel of Grace.

There would be no point in refuting your nonsense line by line, since you would simply refuse to acknowledge the truth, or admit that you are seriously mistaken (as you are in many other matters regarding the Bible).

 

[101G]

our brother Episkopos is correct, see post #33.

now let's see it plainly in scripture.

Romans 4:1 "What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Romans 4:2 "For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Romans 4:3 "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Romans 4:4 "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Romans 4:5 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Romans 4:6 "Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Romans 4:7 "Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Romans 4:8 "Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

many Chistian struggle with this. but consider what we are about to say. "one do not work to get save, but one work because they are saved". if one keep this concept in mind they will never have to struggle with this again. so there is no conflict between any apostle.

PICJAG

 

[justbyfaith]

Commentary on Romans.

 

[FHII]

It seems that God accounted him righteous solely for his faith in His Promises, and not by anything that he did. There is nothing in Genesis 15 that mentions any works that Abraham did. Paul accurately reports this. It seems that James did not consider the account in Genesis 15. It was not until Genesis 22, many years after Isaac was born, when Abraham was well over 100 years old, that he agreed to offer Isaac.

You are correct, and many miss that point. Still, when Abraham offered up Isaac it was done in faith, and is not of works.

Both the incidences concerning Abraham are listed in Hebrews 11 (the roll call of Old Testament folks who lived by faith). When James is talking about Abraham offering up Isaac, it was never a "work" on Abraham's part. When you look at Hebrews 11:19, you see that Abraham was expecting to actually kill Isaac and God would raise him up from the dead.

Abraham was obeying God and really believed that he was not sacrificing or doing a work. He was expecting God to do the work. At most, Abraham was obeying.

Too many people think that obeying means it's a work. In the days of the Law, it was. Today it is not because we are not under the law. Neither was Abraham. He simply obeyed God, being fully persuaded that God would still make Isaac the father of many nation's nations even if he died.

Overall I like the book of James. But he clearly was still carnal. That doesn't mean it's bad, unless you discount Paul's true message.

 

[Episkopos]

And the trouble with that is, it falls flat.
The same "Followers of Christ" that you speak of , each has has a different view of any certain verse.
Much depends what teaching on said verse they were first taught when younger Christians. And which denomination he/she was in. It all colours our belief system.

Just because one sees the verse from one side, and one sees a verse from the other side ..does not disqualify them from being said- followers of Christ!
( as many here try to imply!)

Conflict come when arrogance get in, and said follower believes that only their view of the verse is the correct way and only way that it could possible be interpreted.

That's not what I'm saying. From God's POV an opinion is not a good thing. Human reasoning was rebuked by Jesus when practiced by His followers.

So then from a human standpoint an opinion is fair and justified. But are we to advance in Christ by taking on human opinions?

The irony is that we can...if we are non-partisan and honest...come to the truth by bringing in all the positions. But people don't listen to each other or to basic logic. As soon as the logic gets too far from a person's actual experience...they freak out.

An example is that I have often said here that no one is justified by their own works OR their beliefs. Because so many people live in a delusion they then accuse me of trying to be justified by works...because they have never heard of what I just said...so they ignore the words and go to the automatic defense.

That's why all the circular arguments.....that go nowhere.

I'll try this simple logical experiment with you...

Do you believe you can justify yourself by your beliefs?

 

[Helen]

<snip>
That's why all the circular arguments.....that go nowhere.
I'll try this simple logical experiment with you...

Do you believe you can justify yourself by your beliefs?

Okay, I will play along... NO.

Now what?

 

[Episkopos]

Okay, I will play along... NO.

Now what?

OK...so then you agree with the book of James. H. Richard believes in justification of oneself through beliefs. That is precisely what James is against.

Did Abraham justify himself by his beliefs? No. God did. So then no one can claim to be justified by anything they have believed.

So then what is justification by faith? Well, it is NOT a person coming to the conclusion that they're saved because they believe they are. How many people think they are saved by their beliefs in the sect called protestantism? Almost all. A LOT of delusion there.

We know that faith justifies God's intervention for the victory (salvation) of this day...not tomorrow. Faith covers right now...today. Tomorrow is by hope....not faith.


So if we pray..Lord send your Spirit....and He does....then we know that our faith has saved us....today. Does that mean we are eternally saved? Of course not. If we sin are we eternally cursed? Same thing...of course not.

We will all be judged by the life we have led and what we have done with what we have been given.

 

[bbyrd009]

And the trouble with that is, it falls flat.
The same "Followers of Christ" that you speak of , each has has a different view of any certain verse.
Much depends what teaching on said verse they were first taught when younger Christians. And which denomination he/she was in. It all colours our belief system.

Just because one sees the verse from one side, and one sees a verse from the other side ..does not disqualify them from being said- followers of Christ!
( as many here try to imply!)

Conflict come when arrogance get in, and said follower believes that only their view of the verse is the correct way and only way that it could possible be interpreted.

In that case imo I would lean on Scripture, and when someone is avoiding Scripture like the plague the answer becomes clear imo. This person is trying to lead you astray, and does not give a rip about Christ.

Ignorance and seeking I have all the patience in the world for, ok, I am an ignorant seeker myself. But when I Read "God's friend" I do not then go and write "not Gods friend anywhere" like I knew what I was talking about either. I hope anyway

 

[bbyrd009]

Well you are ENTIRELY MISTAKEN since there cannot be any conflict between the servants of God and Christ writing by divine inspiration, neither can there be any contradictions in Scripture.

The Scripture quoted below refutes your claim above:
Art not thou our God, who didst drive out the inhabitants of this land before thy people Israel, and gavest it to the seed of Abraham thy friend for ever? (2 Chron 20:7).

So when a person begins to think that he is smarter than God, he has a very serious problem -- UNBELIEF. You do not believe that God inspired James to connect Abraham's sacrifice and God's friendship. And you do not believe that James was a servant of the Lord Jesus Christ which meant that he could not possible avoid or contradict the Gospel of Grace.

There would be no point in refuting your nonsense line by line, since you would simply refuse to acknowledge the truth, or admit that you are seriously mistaken (as you are in many other matters regarding the Bible).

And this is just one of many examples of HRs direct contradictions of Scripture, and his remedy is simply to not reply to you

 

[H. Richard]

Not necessary. And often overlooked.

Much love!

So are you saying that our sins of the flesh were not paid for by Jesus on the cross. That we will still be judged for committing sins of the flesh even if God paid for them?

The children of God have all their sins of the flesh paid for by God (Jesus). The judgement of those in Christ is for rewards, not condemnation for sins of the flesh. If a person does not believe that then they refuse to believe God who said their sins were paid for by the blood of His Son Jesus The Christ.

1 Cor 3:10-15
10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it.
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
NKJV

 

[marks]

But people don't listen to each other or to basic logic. As soon as the logic gets too far from a person's actual experience...they freak out.

If that's really what you think, then why are we here?

 

[marks]

So are you saying that our sins of the flesh were not paid for by Jesus on the cross.

Is that what I said? I don't think so.

Much love!
Mark

 

[bbyrd009]

So are you saying that our sins of the flesh were not paid for by Jesus on the cross. That we will still be judged for committing sins of the flesh even if God paid for them?

He isn't saying anything HR, he is agreeing that that is in Scripture. No Son of Man may die for your sins HR, that is in There too. So I'm saying that, just so you know, bc the Bible says that. And imo
All must come before the judgement seat to answer for their works done while in the body, whether good or evil

is also Scripture that has already been affirmed in your absence buddy, sorry about your luck ok

 

[bbyrd009]

The children of God have all their sins of the flesh paid for by God (Jesus).

the whole world has HR, so another swing anna miss buddy, sorry. Your sins are forgiven, and your works will be judged. Get over it.

The judgement of those in Christ is for rewards, not condemnation for sins of the flesh. If a person does not believe that then they refuse to believe God who said their sins were paid for by the blood of His Son Jesus The Christ.

You do not know what you are talking about, you are just seeking rewards for what you should have been doing anyway, like any egomaniac would. God did not say that, and you do not know what "propitiation" means I guess.

Have a nice day

 

[marks]

Do you believe you can justify yourself by your beliefs?

Isn't the better question, Does God justify you for believing Him, as He did with Abraham?

Much love!

 

[bbyrd009]

We see the same confusion at "confession" I guess, another word HR will not even repeat

Do yourself a favor buddy, and just go keep repeating your Magic Incantations in the belief that they will alter the future for you, ok?

And stay away from the Bible, like you are already doing.

At least this way you will not be perceived as an offensive witch, ok? Or keep contradicting Scripture buddy, ok with me, your call. You obv lost your head a long time ago, and all it takes to send you back to your hole is a little Scripture, see?

 

[H. Richard]

That's not what I'm saying. From God's POV an opinion is not a good thing. Human reasoning was rebuked by Jesus when practiced by His followers.

So then from a human standpoint an opinion is fair and justified. But are we to advance in Christ by taking on human opinions?

The irony is that we can...if we are non-partisan and honest...come to the truth by bringing in all the positions. But people don't listen to each other or to basic logic. As soon as the logic gets too far from a person's actual experience...they freak out.

An example is that I have often said here that no one is justified by their own works OR their beliefs. Because so many people live in a delusion they then accuse me of trying to be justified by works...because they have never heard of what I just said...so they ignore the words and go to the automatic defense.

That's why all the circular arguments.....that go nowhere.

I'll try this simple logical experiment with you...

Do you believe you can justify yourself by your beliefs?

No one can justify themselves, period. God justifies those who BELIEVE in the work of His Son on the cross.

Believe = faith = trust = confidence all mean the same thing.

What do you think justifies you? If you do not believe God then you can not be justified by His payment on the cross.

 

[bbyrd009]

You are correct, and many miss that point. Still, when Abraham offered up Isaac it was done in faith, and is not of works.

Both the incidences concerning Abraham are listed in Hebrews 11 (the roll call of Old Testament folks who lived by faith). When James is talking about Abraham offering up Isaac, it was never a "work" on Abraham's part. When you look at Hebrews 11:19, you see that Abraham was expecting to actually kill Isaac and God would raise him up from the dead.

Abraham was obeying God and really believed that he was not sacrificing or doing a work. He was expecting God to do the work. At most, Abraham was obeying.

Too many people think that obeying means it's a work. In the days of the Law, it was. Today it is not because we are not under the law. Neither was Abraham. He simply obeyed God, being fully persuaded that God would still make Isaac the father of many nation's nations even if he died.

Overall I like the book of James. But he clearly was still carnal. That doesn't mean it's bad, unless you discount Paul's true message.

No offense but imo it is deceptive at best to suggest that "simply obeying God" is not a lot of work, sometimes. Who here could even take a knife and their son somewhere expecting to come back alone?

 

[bbyrd009]

No one can justify themselves, period.

No one said they could, but plenty of ppl can ignore Scripture huh, you're a pro at it right