The Restrainer

[tzcho2]

2 Corinthians 12:11 KJV
[11] I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing.
Tecarta Bible

....God is not the author of confusion. 1 Cor 14:33 “For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.”
KJV

 

[Waiting on him]

Though I be nothing.

 

[friend of]

That's nice.

 

[Earburner]

Why does that matter? Please explain why you think it matters.

You're going to have to provide a link then. Are you judging the conduct of angels at this moment in time: Yes or No? Simple straightforward question. What verdicts have you reached?

Of course a date doesn't matter! But the evidence of timing is found in the genius behind the inventions of men since the 1800s.
So, in the last 200 years, man has advanced from horse drawn vehicles and oil lamps, to the Light Bulb, autos, trains, planes/jets, to Space ships, Nuclear power, Robots, speed of light Communications and Artificial Intelligence.
You might even say that sci-fi books and videos are satan's prophetic tools for the comfort of man.
It's very obvious who the originator is!
.
We don't and won't judge the "conduct of angels. In Christ, we rule over them! Luke 10
[17] And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
[18] And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven [to the "bottomless pit].
[19] Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
.
Satan was loosed from the abyss 200+/- years ago, and is severely frustrated to know that his time was shortened, to the point that his furious rage, is causing chaos and pandemonium among the nations.
Now correct me if I am wrong, but isn't satan the prince of the power of the air (atmosphere)?
Eph. 2:2.
.
Am I judging angels at this time?
Well, you have to understand what Jesus said about that. John 12[31] Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
> For satan to be cast out, is an act of judgment. We who are born again Christians rule over satan through Christ, by that judgment.

Do you remember that I said that Jesus is the judgment? All flesh, who are born through Adam are judged as being "condemned already", but all who believe in Jesus, are judged as being delivered from that judgment of condemnation. John 3:18.
That IS the judgment!!
.
As for satan, his judgment was that he was "cast out", being also condemned, with no offer of forgiveness, ever!
Through Jesus, we now have His power/authority over satan and his horde, to judge/damn him as having no authority over us, who are born again Christians. That is how we judge angels NOW!
.
You also have to understand Paul's words in its context, and the Textus Receptus Greek for the KJV.
The verse reads: 1 Cor. 6[2] Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world [as in now], and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
> How do Christians judge the world? Jesus explained it in John 20[22] And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
[23] Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained. That is our participation in Christ's judgment!
> Do you recall that I mentioned that born again Christians are Ambassadors in Christ's stead, for people to be reconciled to God? 2 Cor. 5:20
.
1 Cor. 6[3] Know ye not that we shall judge angels [as in now]? how much more things that pertain to this life?
> Did you want to think that we shall be judging angels in the future, after our bodily resurrection?
Think again! Jesus Himself already brought judgment to the world, and already had cast satan out. John 12:31.
> So, where did Jesus cast satan out to?
Ans. The abyss, the bottomless pit, is this earth, where he was *bound for a symbolic thousand years, so that the Grace of God could prevail in the world without satan's hindrance [that he should deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years were ended], until God's period of Grace was completed.
.
The word "pit" means grave, and for it to be "bottomless", means his death shall be endless. The "bottomless pit" for satan is this earth, of which shall be the place of his endless death and grave.
.
* Satan is "the strong man" that Jesus alluded to. Notice what Jesus said was to happen first. Satan was to be bound, so that God could save as many people that He could, who have been deceived by the devil.
Mark 3[27] No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he [Jesus] first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.
> What/who are satan's goods?
Ans. "Ye are of your father the devil"- all people who are unsaved.
.
Amillenniasts KNOW the truth about the judgment of this world and the judgment of angels. We are now "partakers of the divine nature" of Christ, and by that fact alone, we are participants in His judgment over the world and satan.

 

[Waiting on him]

Of course a date doesn't matter! But the evidence of timing is found in the genius behind the inventions of men since the 1800s.
So, in the last 200 years, man has advanced from horse drawn vehicles and oil lamps, to the Light Bulb, autos, trains, planes/jets, to Space ships, Nuclear power, Robots, speed of light Communications and Artificial Intelligence.
You might even say that sci-fi books and videos are satan's prophetic tools for the comfort of man.
It's very obvious who the originator is!
.
We don't and won't judge the "conduct of angels. In Christ, we rule over them! Luke 10
[17] And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
[18] And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven [to the "bottomless pit].
[19] Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
.
Satan was loosed from the abyss 200+/- years ago, and is severely frustrated to know that his time was shortened, to the point that his furious rage, is causing chaos and pandemonium among the nations.
Now correct me if I am wrong, but isn't satan the prince of the power of the air (atmosphere)?
Eph. 2:2.
.
Am I judging angels at this time?
Well, you have to understand what Jesus said about that. John 12[31] Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
> For satan to be cast out, is an act of judgment. We who are born again Christians rule over satan through Christ, by that judgment.

Do you remember that I said that Jesus is the judgment? All flesh, who are born through Adam are judged as being "condemned already", but all who believe in Jesus, are judged as being delivered from that judgment of condemnation. John 3:18.
That IS the judgment!!
.
As for satan, his judgment was that he was "cast out", being also condemned, with no offer of forgiveness, ever!
Through Jesus, we now have His power/authority over satan and his horde, to judge/damn him as having no authority over us, who are born again Christians. That is how we judge angels NOW!
.
You also have to understand Paul's words in its context, and the Textus Receptus Greek for the KJV.
The verse reads: 1 Cor. 6[2] Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world [as in now], and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
> How do Christians judge the world? Jesus explained it in John 20[22] And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
[23] Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained. That is our participation in Christ's judgment!
> Do you recall that I mentioned that born again Christians are Ambassadors in Christ's stead, for people to be reconciled to God? 2 Cor. 5:20
.
1 Cor. 6[3] Know ye not that we shall judge angels [as in now]? how much more things that pertain to this life?
> Did you want to think that we shall be judging angels in the future, after our bodily resurrection?
Think again! Jesus Himself already brought judgment to the world, and already had cast satan out. John 12:31.
> So, where did Jesus cast satan out to?
Ans. The abyss, the bottomless pit, is this earth, where he was *bound for a symbolic thousand years, so that the Grace of God could prevail in the world without satan's hindrance [that he should deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years were ended], until God's period of Grace was completed.
.
The word "pit" means grave, and for it to be "bottomless", means his death shall be endless. The "bottomless pit" for satan is this earth, of which shall be the place of his endless death and grave.
.
* Satan is "the strong man" that Jesus alluded to. Notice what Jesus said was to happen first. Satan was to be bound, so that God could save as many people that He could, who have been deceived by the devil.
Mark 3[27] No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he [Jesus] first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.
> What/who are satan's goods?
Ans. "Ye are of your father the devil"- all people who are unsaved.
.
Amillenniasts KNOW the truth about the judgment of this world and the judgment of angels. We are now "partakers of the divine nature" of Christ, and by that fact alone, we are participants in His judgment over the world and satan.

Genesis 18:18-19 KJV
[18] Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? [19] For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the Lord , to do justice and judgment; that the Lord may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.


Tecarta BibleWell served I’d have most likely just said judgement begins at the household of God.

 

[friend of]

The verse reads: 1 Cor. 6[2] Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world [as in now], and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

I think this is future tense. Why would Paul need to tell them that they will, that they shall judge Angel's if they were already aware of that fact? They weren't aware of it because it has not yet come to pass, it is future still.

Think again! Jesus Himself already brought judgment to the world, and already had cast satan out. John 12:31

It sounds like Jesus judged everything already then. The verses in 1 Cor 6:1-3 state that we will eventually be judging things in Christ's kingdom. I interpret it that we will be deputized to resolve disputable matters in a future kingdom because Paul had to tell them that they would be responsible for judging the world. If it were present tense, they would be aware of their position of judge over heathens and such. Some of us are in the position to judge and enforce penalties and resolve disputes between brethren and heathen, but Paul makes it clear that ALL of us Christian's will be given this honor, not just those who have been raised to positions of authority in this world.

I don't entirely know if 2 Timothy 2:18 pertains to you, but I am going to reference it because you are saying that many things are already fulfilled, that may not be.

Amillenniasts KNOW the truth about the judgment of this world and the judgment of angels.

I guess I have to give you credit for being capable of backing up what you're saying. You've clearly given some thought to it and I appreciate it because I'd like to understand your view more. Thanks.

Amillenniasts KNOW the truth about the judgment of this world and the judgment of angels. We are now "partakers of the divine nature" of Christ, and by that fact alone, we are participants in His judgment over the world and satan.

I dont think you're going to find any sincere Christian who disagrees with anything in this above comment.

 

[Earburner]

I think this is future tense. Why would Paul need to tell them that they will, that they shall judge Angel's if they were already aware of that fact? They weren't aware of it because it has not yet come to pass, it is future still.



It sounds like Jesus judged everything already then. The verses in 1 Cor 6:1-3 state that we will eventually be judging things in Christ's kingdom. I interpret it that we will be deputized to resolve disputable matters in a future kingdom because Paul had to tell them that they would be responsible for judging the world. If it were present tense, they would be aware of their position of judge over heathens and such. Some of us are in the position to judge and enforce penalties and resolve disputes between brethren and heathen, but Paul makes it clear that ALL of us Christian's will be given this honor, not just those who have been raised to positions of authority in this world.

I don't entirely know if 2 Timothy 2:18 pertains to you, but I am going to reference it because you are saying that many things are already fulfilled, that may not be.



I guess I have to give you credit for being capable of backing up what you're saying. You've clearly given some thought to it and I appreciate it because I'd like to understand your view more. Thanks.



I dont think you're going to find any sincere Christian who disagrees with anything in this above comment.

We as Christians today, have years of knowledge, handed down to us, of how Christ has worked in and through His churches.
Therfore, it's easy for us to be out of touch with its beginnings, as to how the early churches began, such as those believers who lived in Corinth.
.
Today, we are born and then grow up as children, in and around many established churches. In Paul's day, that was not the case. People met in each others houses, without Bibles. There were no visible churches in town.
.
To all whom Paul met and instructed, he was the only "church" that they knew.
Apart from him, they were totally dependent on the Holy Spirit to "guide them into all truth". I dare say, that in a group setting, it was not all that easy, for there were no guide lines for how a group of Christians should live, walk and talk as brethren.
.
As a result, Jesus through Paul had to teach them in "baby steps", the simple basics of function, of how "new creatures" in Christ should grow in Christ together, and relate to the unsaved world.
Also, they were basically ignorant of their new status over satan, and had to be instructed to understand that through Jesus, they obtained victory over the fallen angels.
The church in Corinth was typical of all churches, in that time and era.

1 Cor. 3[1] And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
[2] I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
[3] For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

 

[Earburner]

"Friend of" quoted 2 Tim. 2:18- men who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already, and overthrow the faith of some.
.
Where and when have I ever denied our bodily resurrection, upon our Lord's visible and fiery return?? If anything, I make it clear that is so!
.
What you and many do not comprehend is that we who are born again, are already in the KoG, through the Blood of Jesus and the free Gift of His Holy Spirit. We are made to be "partakers of the divine nature [His]".
.
To be a "partaker" means that we already "hath [have] part in the first resurrection", who is Christ, in the present tense.
.
Other than Christ, do you know of anyone else who is "the FIRST born [of the Spirit] among many BRETHREN"?
Therefore " blessed is he that hath part in the first resurrection, the second death hath no power".
.
If God's Holy Spirit has been deposited within you, through faith in Christ, are you not blessed? Are you not a partaker of the divine nature, who is Christ, the First resurrection? Have you not the promised Gift of Eternal Life? If so, then the second death has no more power of you!
.
Have you been resurrected in part? Yes! But now you are waiting for the fulness of His Glory, to be changed to His likeness, which is immortality.

 

[Davy]

"Friend of" quoted 2 Tim. 2:18- men who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already, and overthrow the faith of some.
.
Where and when have I ever denied our bodily resurrection, upon our Lord's visible and fiery return?? If anything, I make it clear that is so!
.
What you and many do not comprehend is that we who are born again, are already in the KoG, through the Blood of Jesus and the free Gift of His Holy Spirit. We are made to be "partakers of the divine nature [His]".
.
To be a "partaker" means that we already "hath [have] part in the first resurrection", who is Christ, in the present tense.
.
Other than Christ, do you know of anyone else who is "the FIRST born [of the Spirit] among many BRETHREN"?
Therefore " blessed is he that hath part in the first resurrection, the second death hath no power".
.
If God's Holy Spirit has been deposited within you, through faith in Christ, are you not blessed? Are you not a partaker of the divine nature, who is Christ, the First resurrection? Have you not the promised Gift of Eternal Life? If so, then the second death has no more power of you!
.
Have you been resurrected in part? Yes! But now you are waiting for the fulness of His Glory, to be changed to His likeness, which is immortality.

The future resurrection is about the raising of the dead. That means the "resurrection of life" and the "resurrection of damnation" that is to happen on the day of Christ's return, per John 5:28-29. So to say that resurrection has happened already is to wrongly infer that Jesus' 2nd coming has already happened, and that the gathering of His Church has already happened. It has not, so that's how far off base your ideas are about the resurrection. Becoming a 'new creature' in Christ Jesus by belief on His death and resurrection does not mean the resurrection on the last day of this world has happened yet.

 

[friend of]

To be a "partaker" means that we already "hath [have] part in the first resurrection", who is Christ, in the present tense.

Okay so then 2 Timothy 2:18 does apply to you, at least in part, cuz you're saying the first ressurection has already happened. I don't know if what your saying is necessarily ruinous to anyone's faith, since correct eschatology is not a salvific issue. Paul was probably talking about those who convinced others that the ressurection had taken place and that they'd missed it, and so they give up on Christianity afterwards. But yeah, John 5:28 speaks about the ressurection and it's clearly talking about an event that will occur after physical death (when one is in the grave).

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Earburner]

The future resurrection is about the raising of the dead. That means the "resurrection of life" and the "resurrection of damnation" that is to happen on the day of Christ's return, per John 5:28-29. So to say that resurrection has happened already is to wrongly infer that Jesus' 2nd coming has already happened, and that the gathering of His Church has already happened. It has not, so that's how far off base your ideas are about the resurrection. Becoming a 'new creature' in Christ Jesus by belief on His death and resurrection does not mean the resurrection on the last day of this world has happened yet.

It is evident that you cannot comprehend my words, or else you just didn't read them! ;esus is the FIRST Resurrection, Blessed is he that HATH part.
An analogy:
If I bake a pie from a new recipe, and you are GIVEN a part of that FIRST pie, you are a "partaker" of that FIRST pie.
If you will: Happy and satisfied is he, that HATH PART in the FIRST pie.
Understanding what I said requires that your concept of thinking must change from how you are thinking about it, to what the Lord means about it.
Try again.

 

[Jon Mathews]

We're not in the 1,000 years. Satan is not locked in Hell. He is roaming the earth. He is NOT shut up to deceive the nations no longer. He is very much in this world. I've met him with other witnessess on at least 4 occassions. He spoke to me and the Brothers in Christ and we all heard his unholy tongues.

There are only 2 reasons you believe in Amillenialism:

1) You've never resisted the Devil.
or
2) You ARE the Devil.

 

[Earburner]

We're not in the 1,000 years. Satan is not locked in Hell. He is roaming the earth. He is NOT shut up to deceive the nations no longer. He is very much in this world. I've met him with other witnessess on at least 4 occassions. He spoke to me and the Brothers in Christ and we all heard his unholy tongues.

There are only 2 reasons you believe in Amillenialism:

1) You've never resisted the Devil.
or
2) You ARE the Devil.

Satan was loosed 200 years ago. From the invention of the light bulb to present. You can't put it together, of how fast the inventions have come, since there was nothing for 6000 years prior?
Satan was bound at the Cross of Jesus. He said so!

 

[Jon Mathews]

Satan was loosed 200 years ago. From the invention of the light bulb to present. You can't put it together, of how fast the inventions have come, since there was nothing for 6000 years prior?
Satan was bound at the Cross of Jesus. He said so!

So now you're saying Satan was bound in Hell, shut up so he could not deceive the nations and Christ has ruled the earth from the Resurrection of Christ until the creation of the light bulb???? Can't you see Satan roaming the earth in the middle ages? If Satan was locked in Hell during the middle ages as you claim, than Jesus has not been a very good world ruler!!! No. Satan was still roaming the earth during the middle ages also (before the creation of the light bulb). The millennium has not started. It will be a time of complete peace. The lion lays down with the Lamb. There are no wars or rumors of wars during the Millenium. People living to 100 years are still considered young. No. The millenium has not started. The Spirit of AntiChrist/Satan has been in the world from the time of Jesus Resurrection until TODAY. Satan has been roaming the earth from Jesus Christ resurrection until today.

But THIS is how it will happen.....

Jesus Christ will return to earth riding a white horse, his feet will touch down on the mount of olives, He will throw the antichrist and false prophet into the lake of fire, He will kill the followers of the Beast with the Sword of His mouth, and THEN He will will Lock Satan in Hell, resurrect the beheaded saints (only) as the "First Resurrection", and then reign for 1,000 years, and after that He will release Satan, who willl gather the unbelievers from the 4 corners of the earth "Gog and Magog", they will surround Jesus and the believers in Jerusalem, and THAT time Fire will come down from Heaven and kill the Enemies of Jesus Christ and His people. Then everyone will be ressurected for Judgement. Heaven and earth will flee from the Presence of God. Whosever names are not in the Lambs book of life will be cast into the Lake of Fire where Satan, the AntiChrist, and the False prophet already will be, and God will create an entirely New Heavens and Earth, and the New Jerusalem will come down out of Heaven, and God will be ALL in ALL, and we'll live withHim forever.

 

[Earburner]

So now you're saying Satan was bound in Hell, shut up so he could not deceive the nations and Christ has ruled the earth from the Resurrection of Christ until the creation of the light bulb???? Can't you see Satan roaming the earth in the middle ages? If Satan was locked in Hell during the middle ages as you claim, than Jesus has not been a very good world ruler!!! No. Satan was still roaming the earth during the middle ages also (before the creation of the light bulb). The millennium has not started. It will be a time of complete peace. The lion lays down with the Lamb. There are no wars or rumors of wars during the Millenium. People living to 100 years are still considered young. No. The millenium has not started. The Spirit of AntiChrist/Satan has been in the world from the time of Jesus Resurrection until TODAY. Satan has been roaming the earth from Jesus Christ resurrection until today.

But THIS is how it will happen.....

Jesus Christ will return to earth riding a white horse, his feet will touch down on the mount of olives, He will throw the antichrist and false prophet into the lake of fire, He will kill the followers of the Beast with the Sword of His mouth, and THEN He will will Lock Satan in Hell, resurrect the beheaded saints (only) as the "First Resurrection", and then reign for 1,000 years, and after that He will release Satan, who willl gather the unbelievers from the 4 corners of the earth "Gog and Magog", they will surround Jesus and the believers in Jerusalem, and THAT time Fire will come down from Heaven and kill the Enemies of Jesus Christ and His people. Then everyone will be ressurected for Judgement. Heaven and earth will flee from the Presence of God. Whosever names are not in the Lambs book of life will be cast into the Lake of Fire where Satan, the AntiChrist, and the False prophet already will be, and God will create an entirely New Heavens and Earth, and the New Jerusalem will come down out of Heaven, and God will be ALL in ALL, and we'll live withHim forever.

You are not thinking about what I am saying.
Your head is too full of preconceived, religious ideas and doctrines.
Satan was bound in the "bottomless pit" when Jesus died on the Cross and His Resurrection.
"Pit" means the grave, and "bottomless" is self explanatory, as in endless. Everyone who goes to the grave/pit is DEAD. This earth is Satan's grave and endless DEATH.
Jesus said it this way: Luke 10[18] And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
.
> Where did satan fall to?
Rev. 9[1] And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
> Stars are symbolic of angels.

 

[Earburner]

Jesus explained why He was going to bind satan.
Jesus was going to spoil satan's goods and his house. The "goods" are everyone who is unsaved, and are a child of the devil.
So how did/does Jesus spoil satan's people?
Ans. He calls them to repent towards God and to believe on His Name, so that they may escape from the snare of Satan.
Satan was not bound from doing anything with the nations, but rather to be held in check from deceiving the people of the nations. It was God's will so that the Gospel of His Salvation (Jesus) could be preached to all the nations, and prevail.
.
In truth, that is why Jesus said: Mat. 16[18] And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
> Jesus knew satan was soon to be bound for a duration of time, for the Gospel was to be preached, for as long as men have faith. KJV- Luke 18:8;
2 Thes. 2:3.
When faith shall cease, the Gospel will have been preached in all the world, then shall the end come.

Mat. 24[14] And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

 

[Earburner]

Now, you all tell me that satan has not been loosed!
Take a look at these two films of New York city.
Now make the comparison of all that you see, to today, being only 223 years later.

New York film-1896-1901: New York film-1896-1901 - YouTube
.
New York film-1911: New York film-1911 - YouTube

 

[Earburner]

223 years ÷ 60 years equals approx. 3.72 generations.
If the world of man has existed for 6000 years, that is equal to

 

[Earburner]

Correction: that is equal to 100 generations.

 

[Naomi25]

Thanks for your replies @Naomi25 and for treating this topic as a basis for discussion, not argument and berating. First, I didn't mean to point to you personally as being the focus of my critique of members here as being too readily willing to dismiss phoneman's and my thoughts on this topic without fair consideration. I have always found you to be one of the exceptions on any discussion. While having your own current ideas, I have never noticed you being scathingly hostile to others ideas which may be contrary to your own without discussion and thought. Your questions have opened up a pandora's box of controversy, and the answers are not without the possibility of engendering much debate and a certain amount of vehement objection from some quarters. This I fully understand, having been in their position myself, but having since been convinced that the historicist hermeneutic offers the only real Biblical and historical support for those questions you raise.
The answers aren't simple either. Books have been written on the subject so please don't expect one line answers LOL. It's too late for me to start tonite...I need to get up for work early so am typing this brief reply before crashing for the night. I may have opportunity tomorrow to offer some full answers and which likely will lead to more questions and challenges, and that's okay. Have a good night.

Well, I fully and firmly believe that boards like this should be about discussion, even when it involves differences of opinion. If we sit in our long held beliefs and refuse to be challenged by thought or questions on them, then we cannot with any sort of certainty, be sure, when all is said and done, that we've tested it against everything and had it come away more sure and firm based upon scripture, not upon our thoughts, preconceptions, or what others have said.
Mostly my issues with others here stem from the fact that they themselves will not engage in biblical conversation on doctrinal issues, but are happy to base their insults upon apparently not much more than...well...I'm not really sure, because they don't engage!!
You and I often disagree, but I always enjoy the fact that we can have interesting conversations that ultimately come back to what we see the bible saying. I know we both feel led in our convictions, and ultimately, who knows who is 'correct' in their understanding. But really, that's all we can do, is it not? Study God's word and pray like crazy that we are faithful to it and him?

Goodness... I had no notion that my questions would open a pandora box and raise controversy...that was not my intention! But, yes...I admit they are questions I would like answered...but of course at your own time. And I most certainly understand that one liners will not cut it. When do they ever in such important issues? I myself have been pretty darn busy the last few days. My daughter decided to use her work money to buy herself a puppy. She's doing a very good job of being 'mum' to it, but it has thrown my household into a kerfuffle.