I'm down with that. Although I did post the first question my Saturday morning, your Friday night. And he has responded to others since. But hey, I don't want it to sound like I'm lonely and bereft of his company or anything. Just eager to see some answers to the questions.
The Flawed Reasoning Of Total Depravity
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I don't want to go through the trouble of dredging up the specific post, so you are going to have to (respect me enough to) consider me to be a truthful person and take my word for it (unless you also witnessed it when it was posted); but #Dave L basically touted that grace comes before faith in salvation and I think one other Calvinist said that that wasn't the case, that he was misrepresenting the doctrine. Other Calvinists later confirmed that they believe that grace does indeed come in front of faith according to what they believe.
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Seems to me like Nicolas Cage is being a complete jerkhead in this clip.
Ok when it gets into some details Reformed folks don’t agree like I posted above . Calvinism isn’t some monolithic denomination . There are going to be some differences in doctrine between each group.
Yea and some times folks get things wrong either out of heat of debate , or not fully understanding the subject. It happens.
. Note if it happens way too often we have to take action by taking back his or her 5 point Calvinist secret decoder ring along with their golden membership cards .
Blessings
Bill
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There is Calvinism, as variously defined. And Biblical Calvinism. And Calvinists. And Calvin himself who died in 1564, well before the Five Points of Calvinism from the Synod of Dort, 1618,19
Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
We (you) probably should not be saying a person said something, when they're now gone, unless we (you) can provide proof, otherwise it's hearsay.
Obviously grace comes prior to salvation; Acts 18:27; "And when he wished to cross to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him. When he arrived, he greatly helped those who through grace had believed,"
No one believes by their own ability, numerous Scriptures attest to this, but for the record you've rejected them up to this point because they go against what you want to believe.
Let's stick to Scriptural proof above, and give God all the due glory, and end putting what we've done ahead of God's glory; 1 Corinthians 1:26-31.
But this is still hearsay; "he said, they said, she said..."
More hearsay. If so many said it, why no quotes? Not even one. Why? It's according to what "they" believe because they believe what Scripture teaches in context.
It is quite apparent grace comes before faith. Not sure why you have such a problem with this, and such an aversion to God getting all the glory.
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It should be clear that we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand.
Rom 5:1, Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2, By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
You don't want to believe that I am a truthful person, that is on you. You show yourself to be disrespectful to others, when the exhortation of the word of the Lord is, Honour all men. 1 Peter 2:17a.
Simply because I expect that you have been involved in the discussions enough to have been there when the quotes were made. If you want to go into previous threads and pick out the quotes that show forth what I am saying, then by all means do so.
But I do not feel that it is all that important to me to prove my point to you if you don't love or respect me enough to believe me in the first place. I am not going to put forth the extra effort to convince someone who disrespects me in such a manner. They can continue on in their blindness as far as I'm concerned. Especially since the point to be made by the documentation required is not essential to your salvation. If it were essential, then I might put forth the extra effort for the sake of your eternal well-being.
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The issue for me is not the glory of the Lord. He is perfectly capable of showing forth His glory so that all are fully aware of how glorious He truly is.
The issue for me is that if grace comes before faith, then faith is not necessary in the obtaining of grace.
However, the scripture is clear that faith is necessary. Therefore the teaching set forth is subversive to the true concept that we must enter into grace by virtue of our faith, or we do not enter into grace at all.
The way to life is narrow and strait according to the words of our Lord Jesus Christ; but it is a broader path (or no path at all) that says I can be saved apart from faith simply because the Lord chose me for no reason whatsoever.
People will take this doctrine to mean that there is no need to place their faith in Christ; they can just wait for Him to save them or not save them as He sees fit. And if He does not, then they can just rest assured that God is some kind of murderer who placed them in the lake of fire through no fault of their own. So god will suffer in eternity in his conscience, knowing that he put people in the lake of fire through his predetermined choice and gave certain people no option for escape.
The Lord tells us to enter in through the door (John 10:9). Those who don't enter in through the door will not find themselves inside the building when the marriage supper of the Lamb takes place.
Calvinism tells people that they don't need to enter in through the door, that they are already either inside or outside of the building and there is nothing they can do to change that.
It begs the question of why preach the gospel? Since no decision can be made concerning the information; and they are in one place or the other eternally no matter whether it is told them and no matter their response if or when it is told them.
It also produces complacency and apathy concerning when a man is faced with the decision to either receive or reject Christ as Saviour and Lord. He might say smugly, "I have total inability and therefore I cannot come to Christ today (or ever)."
It is a doctrine that leads men to put off the decision to receive Christ until it is indeed too late.
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Five Point Calvinism is indeed a subversion of the true Gospel. But you will never convince any die-hard Calvinist to take a moment and re-examine all of his/her flawed theology. There are some "big name" Christians who also hold to this nonsense.
That is the same as the reaction of the Roman Catholic Church to the Reformers. Rather than re-examine all their lies, they chose to double-down on their beliefs with Counter Reformation.
For many it becomes a matter of pride to hold on to erroneous beliefs rather than frankly admit that it is time to repent and go back to Bible truth.
... The Reformers were all Calvinistic. Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Melanchton [for a time], Knox [Founder of the Presbyterian Church]
All of them were Calvinistic. And might I also say I know all of the other Reformed believers on this site are
1.) Concerned first and foremost with what the Word of God has to say, not with being right.
2.) Have thoroughly examined Calvinism as a whole [not just the 5 Points]
3.) Are more concerned with the Glory of God than worshiping the god of free will
You make it out like we just don't know what it is Calvinism teaches. On the contrary, we know it very well; much better than you do. And the fact that you would rather ignore our posts, disregard our statements, and refuse to listen to the reasoning and Scripture behind our remarks show that you are so fixated on proving that Calvinism is wrong that you ignore trying to let the Scriptures speak for themselves. It says a lot about a person when they refuse to let Scripture [as a whole, not taken out of context] correct them.
Also, most if not all of the Calvinists on this site could attest to being Arminian at one point or another. I hated Calvinism for a long time, and attacked it much the same way you do now; by telling them that if the would just 'open their eyes, they would see the truth.' The problem was, I was the blind man telling others to see. When I actually read Calvinist books, It was to tear down the philosophy and expose Calvinist as heretics. But when God opened my heart to the gospel, I was changed.
So please, do not make it out like my brothers and I do not know what we are talking about, and that the problem is that we've been indoctrinated by Calvinism, or that if we would just 'open our eyes, we would see the truth.' We've all been where you are right now, and know the Arminian stance as well as the next guy. You love to talk about the 'flaws of our theology', but when we answer your questions about the flaws, they go ignored. And I think I know why. Because if we were to answer every question, and you were to genuinely read our responses instead of casually brushing them to the side, you would see that you are the true die-hard; clinging to Arminianism at any cost; even at the cost of the truth. This is the real reason my brothers have slowed down a bit debating with you. Because you don't debate. In a debate, you deal with the opponents points, and counterpoint. What happens here is half a debate. You make an accusation, and we answer with Scripture, then ask where we went wrong. But we are never answered. It is always a 'moving right along' kind of debate, where our answers are burried under mounds of more questions that we answer, only to answer 20 or 30 more. If we were to have an actual debate with you, where questions are answered and answers are either proven or disproven using Scripture, we'd make more headway. But instead, all that goes on is ridicule and mockery, laughing at and spitting on Calvinism for baseless reasons.
If you want to debate the proper way, I'm sure we would be more than happy to do so. But it's high time you either play ball or get off the field. If you are going to attack something, you should at least give fair trial rather than a rigged system.
Except that my contentions in the following...
...I don't think have ever been adequately answered
Calvinism has taken the sovereignty of God to such an extreme that the truth has been distorted.
Also Calvinism has rejected free will under the assumption that there is a conflict between God's sovereignty and man's free will. But the most damage which has been done to the Gospel is that sovereignty has been substituted for the grace and mercy of God (even though Calvinists call their teachings ironically "The Doctrines of Grace").
When we come to Gospel truth, we notice in Scripture that the love (agape) of God towards sinful men is the key to His mercy and grace. Not that sovereignty is unimportant, but the cross of Christ is all about the love of God.
ROMANS 5: THE HEART OF THE GOSPEL
5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth [proves] his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
There is a direct connection between the love of God and the cross of Christ not only in this passage but throughout the New Testament. And there is no mention of sovereignty, since sovereignty would focus on the wrath of God, and what the Gospel says above is "we shall be saved from wrath through him". So the glory of God is displayed in His grace through Christ, and God was glorified in Christ on the cross.
As to free will, because Reformed Theology has once again distorted the truth, we find Calvinists insisting that men are regenerated BEFORE they believe and are saved. But that is impossible since repentance and faith are necessary in order to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (and the gift of eternal life), and it is only after that that sinners are regenerated -- born of the Spirit. We have this clearly spelled out in Acts 19:2 and Titus 3:4-7:
He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since [after] ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
TITUS 3: THE KINDNESS, LOVE, MERCY AND GRACE OF GOD
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Why is there no mention of sovereignty in this passage? Because the Gospel is about the grace of God. And not just to the elect but to all men: For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world... (Titus 2:11,12).
Nancy
Well-Known Member
Been doing a bit of reading. I came across this site and am interested in how some Calvinists would answer them.
1- Did Satan possess libertarian freedom to reject God?
2- Did Adam and Eve possess libertarian freedom to not eat of the forbidden fruit?
3- Do unregenerate sinners have libertarian freedom and an ability to choose between a range of sinful thoughts and actions?
4- Do Christians possess the ability to resist temptation in thought and action as per 1 Corinthians 10:13?
5- Do Christians have the libertarian ability to choose between reading a red Bible or a blue Bible? (If John Piper chose to read a red Bible, could he have genuinely chosen otherwise and read the blue Bible?)
6- Do Christians possess the libertarian freedom to deliberate and rationally think things through to reach conclusions like, “Calvinism is probably true,” or “Molinism is the inference to the best explanation”?
If you answered “yes” to one or more of the preceding questions then you affirm libertarian free will in some form (“soft libertarianism”). If you answered in the affirmative to any of these questions, the next questions raised are the following:
7- Was God surprised by any of these free choices?
8- Did God learn anything new based on these free choices?
'If you answered “no” to these questions — because God is eternally omniscient — then it follows that God knew that these free choices would be made logically prior to His creative decree. If that is the case, then God possesses middle knowledge. This is how God can be completely sovereign over the soft libertarian free choices of humans. God chooses to create a world in which He knows how persons would freely choose. God predestines all things without causally determining all things!"
"The Bible is replete with passages affirming that God loves all people and desires all to be with Him in an eternal marriage (Ezekiel 18:30-32; 33:10-11; 1 Timothy 2:4;2 Peter 3:9; Romans 5: 15-18; John 3:16). The Bible is also clear that this “divine flirtatious grace” is offered to all people (1 John 2:2; Titus 2:11). If we do not resist — if we just sit back and do NOTHING — then God will eventually draw each and every one of us to the point of no return. Although logically possible to reject Christ at that point, as long as no one resists God’s grace along the way to that point, God knows that no one will reject his “eternal marriage proposal” once He brings us to that point!
"Side note: One might object and assert that God does not need to take individuals on a grace journey “along the way” and that just merely being in the presence of the Holy Spirit is sufficient to irresistibly draw all persons instantaneously. We have biblical data, however, to reject this claim. After all, if this were the case, then why did Adam, Eve, Satan, and a third of all the angels choose to resist "
Questions for Calvinists
1- Did Satan possess libertarian freedom to reject God?
2- Did Adam and Eve possess libertarian freedom to not eat of the forbidden fruit?
3- Do unregenerate sinners have libertarian freedom and an ability to choose between a range of sinful thoughts and actions?
4- Do Christians possess the ability to resist temptation in thought and action as per 1 Corinthians 10:13?
5- Do Christians have the libertarian ability to choose between reading a red Bible or a blue Bible? (If John Piper chose to read a red Bible, could he have genuinely chosen otherwise and read the blue Bible?)
6- Do Christians possess the libertarian freedom to deliberate and rationally think things through to reach conclusions like, “Calvinism is probably true,” or “Molinism is the inference to the best explanation”?
If you answered “yes” to one or more of the preceding questions then you affirm libertarian free will in some form (“soft libertarianism”). If you answered in the affirmative to any of these questions, the next questions raised are the following:
7- Was God surprised by any of these free choices?
8- Did God learn anything new based on these free choices?
'If you answered “no” to these questions — because God is eternally omniscient — then it follows that God knew that these free choices would be made logically prior to His creative decree. If that is the case, then God possesses middle knowledge. This is how God can be completely sovereign over the soft libertarian free choices of humans. God chooses to create a world in which He knows how persons would freely choose. God predestines all things without causally determining all things!"
"The Bible is replete with passages affirming that God loves all people and desires all to be with Him in an eternal marriage (Ezekiel 18:30-32; 33:10-11; 1 Timothy 2:4;2 Peter 3:9; Romans 5: 15-18; John 3:16). The Bible is also clear that this “divine flirtatious grace” is offered to all people (1 John 2:2; Titus 2:11). If we do not resist — if we just sit back and do NOTHING — then God will eventually draw each and every one of us to the point of no return. Although logically possible to reject Christ at that point, as long as no one resists God’s grace along the way to that point, God knows that no one will reject his “eternal marriage proposal” once He brings us to that point!
"Side note: One might object and assert that God does not need to take individuals on a grace journey “along the way” and that just merely being in the presence of the Holy Spirit is sufficient to irresistibly draw all persons instantaneously. We have biblical data, however, to reject this claim. After all, if this were the case, then why did Adam, Eve, Satan, and a third of all the angels choose to resist "
Questions for Calvinists
Hi Nancy,
On this part, it seems to me like this is saying that of all the worlds God could have made, he made the one where John Piper would choose the Red Bible to read from. So in this world, Piper makes the free will choice to read the Red Bible, and God made this world to make sure that was what happened.
Is that what this means?
Much love!
Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
Because Scripture commands us to do so, so, even being a sinful but saved creature, I obey said mandate.
You know it's in there as well. Titus 1:9 is just one example.
Nancy
Well-Known Member
No, not what I am trying to get across. Can our Great God not use our "already chosen" choices before the foundation of the world and work all things good, despite our free-will choices? Does he have to force every single action of man in order to make His will be done? I do not believe we have a God who basically created robots.
In Him Always!
nancy
We seem to be agreed on this.
I believe that God has chosen that we have to choose too. Not robots.
Much love!
Nancy
Well-Known Member
Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
I always enjoy the "not robots" argument, as if a person who was lost and hostile toward God chose to love God.
It is an impossibility but for God...Ephesians 2:3-4. Furthermore it is a false gospel, and has made salvation not of grace but meritorious.
Then you all pat each other on the back over it. Remarkable to behold!
It is an impossibility but for God...Ephesians 2:3-4. Furthermore it is a false gospel, and has made salvation not of grace but meritorious.
Then you all pat each other on the back over it. Remarkable to behold!
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