So how are we seeing right now?

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charity

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'For now we see through a glass, darkly;
but then face to face:
now I know in part;
but then shall I know even as also I am known.'

(1 Corinthians 13:12)

Hello there,

The thought that first came into my head on reading the OP, was standing side by side before a mirror with my daughter, seeing her as she would see herself, yet realising how different her reflection was in the mirror to what I see when I look at her face to face. It was noticeably very different. We do not see ourselves as others see us. We also do not see ourselves as God sees us, for He sees us 'in Christ' - 'Holy and without blame.'

'But when that which is perfect is come,
then that which is in part shall be done away.'

(1 Corinthians 13:10)

Praise His Holy Name!

In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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charity

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'For now we see through a glass, darkly;
but then face to face:
now I know in part;
but then shall I know even as also I am known.'

(1 Corinthians 13:12)

Hello again,

Sat on a bus, looking out at the passing scenery, the view is marred by the reflection on the glass of our own faces looking out, especially at dusk, when the light is fading. How like our view of God that can be, can't it? Because our own reflection, the limits of our own understanding, , our own perception of Him, get in the way of our seeing Him as He truly is.

Praise His Holy Name!

In Christ Jesus
Chris
 

amadeus

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ya, you can only make God in your own image that way i guess. What a shocking hypocrisy it is to call yourself a literalist and then go read the Bible in English only imo
And you don't believe in other tongues. Your words seem to be saying otherwise!
 
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CoreIssue

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I do not disregard any such commands if there are any. On the contrary, I continue to seek God's will in everything. I continue to strive to immerse myself in the Holy Spirit all of the time. That is to say 24/7!

I thought that I did explain to you previously my belief with regard to studying. The consequences of study, even of the scriptures, for a man NOT led by the Holy Spirit are found here:

"And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh." Ecc 12:12

The verse you and others lean on in support of studying is usually this one:

"Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." II Tim 2:15

Notice the reason given to study is NOT in order to learn, but rather to obtain God's approval. This is the "eating of His Flesh" mentioned by Jesus here:

"Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you" John 6:53

His Flesh is the dry dead scriptures which when studied without the Holy Spirit bring into play the result according to Ecc 12:12. Anyone who has read with difficulty some parts of scripture understand that it may be hard or even impossible to focus for long on what is written. But, in the John 6:53 verse quoted it also says "drink his blood". The blood is the life giving and keeping fluid of the physical bodies of men and the lower animals. The Holy Spirit is the Life giving [quickening] Blood of Jesus within the connected members of the Body of Christ. Without it no member may be a member. Without it no member will have real Life, the Life which Jesus brought in abundance. Studying the scriptures without the quickening power of the Holy Spirit working in a person, the person will NOT learn God's message. Too many people study the scriptures leaning heavily on themselves and their own intellect instead of on God. This is the quenching of the Spirit of which Paul warns for the best of reasons. That most church groups [all of them perhaps in some measure] practice quenching the Spirit, causes the disagreements and the break-ups into new splinter groups or denominations. People here, a small group compared to the entirety of Christendom [so-called by men] are an easy to see sample of radically different and sometime seemingly diametrically opposed doctrines supported by those calling themselves followers of Christ or Christians.

Along with those verses also consider what Solomon wrote here:

"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.
It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones." Prov 3:5-8


A man studying alone by his own brainpower alone is lost and cannot find himself anywhere but in delusion.
The simple reality is your position is not what the Bible teaches.
 

CoreIssue

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amen
No Son of MAn may die for another's sins
There is only One Immortal
No one has ever gone up to heaven

which of these is not clear? The first one, maybe? Isnt Christ a "Father" to us?

the problem is there is no such command i guess, but you are welcome to try and Quote it. Fwiw i'd start at Paul's "all..." and go from there maybe. "all" what? When you answer "Scripture," you are off the rails I guess, pretty weird huh. i'm gathering this is not for you now, but wadr you cannot Quote that just like "to be absent from the body..." cannot be Quoted? And these end up more or less defining our walk, right?

We come here to mostly in this venue talk about our various hallucinations about tomorrow I guess, but see you are quite liable to find yourself humming When We All Get to Heaven today right?
God cannot die. God made it clear a man has to die for the sins of man.

Bible says no greater love than one who is willing to die for another.

The second person of the Trinity came down from heaven and was incarnated and later ascended to heaven.
 

bbyrd009

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God cannot die. God made it clear a man has to die for the sins of man.

Bible says no greater love than one who is willing to die for another.

The second person of the Trinity came down from heaven and was incarnated and later ascended to heaven.
seriously, CI? This is what passes for "conversation" to you?


ok, ty then
 

bbyrd009

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The simple reality is your position is not what the Bible teaches.
at least everyone else will now know to pay that some more attention i guess.

I take it you aren't busily building some reply to back up your assertion here, as I've been here almost ten minutes now i think. You think Amadeus is 12 too? Do you have the foggiest idea how ridiculous you sound, man?
 
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bbyrd009

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man, a half hour pissed away staring at a corpse in a grave, Bc i don't even know what to say, the words won't even come. And of course it is the children who are paying the price, too, as Scripture makes so clear. All Bc changing your mind is a little uncomfortable in the moment, Jesus
 
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bbyrd009

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Bible says no greater love than one who is willing to die for another.
No friends, either, huh? You are just constitutionally incapable of even reading the Book, aren't you. That Puppy is sealed up tight to you innit. Tbh I do not even hold you accountable CI, i guess i would be running from Scripture like the plague too, in your place. Gee I wonder how we got a 12 year old potus?
 

amadeus

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So you reject the Bible and only listen to the Holy Spirit.

Our Gnostic of you.
The written Bible is the dead flesh of Jesus on the cross prior to his resurrection. Only when it has been consumed by a person and quickened by the Holy Spirit within that person does it become the Living Word of God. Jesus healed no one between His death and His resurrection!
 

CoreIssue

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The written Bible is the dead flesh of Jesus on the cross prior to his resurrection. Only when it has been consumed by a person and quickened by the Holy Spirit within that person does it become the Living Word of God. Jesus healed no one between His death and His resurrection!
And that requires biblical study, prayer and listening to the Holy Spirit. Which you do not do.
 

amadeus

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And that requires biblical study, prayer and listening to the Holy Spirit. Which you do not do.
You are saying you know better than I what I do or do not do. I do really doubt that. Could it could not be that this is one of those things that you have not yet correctly grasped? I admit the possibility of my shortcomings as I do not know all. Who but God does? If we always knew where we were wrong then we would be unlikely to remain wrong and eventually would be found always [24/7] on the Lord's side.

Just for your information, every morning I have my private session with God which is never less than 1 hour and reading, study and prayer. Frequently it is much longer than that plus there are additional times with God at other times of each day. I always try to remember to, and most often do, return to the "lowest room" allowing God to start up anew within me and elevate me anew if that is His will. Do I ever miss in this? Certainly which is why I
also strive to pray not for my will in all things but for His.


"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened" Matt 7:7-8



 
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CoreIssue

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You are saying you know better than I what I do or do not do. I do really doubt that. Could it could not be that this is one of those things that you have not yet correctly grasped? I admit the possibility of my shortcomings as I do not know all. Who but God does? If we always knew where we were wrong then we would be unlikely to remain wrong and eventually would be found always [24/7] on the Lord's side.

Just for your information, every morning I have my private session with God which is never less than 1 hour and reading, study and prayer. Frequently it is much longer than that plus there are additional times with God at other times of each day. I always try to remember to, and most often do, return to the "lowest room" allowing God to start up anew within me and elevate me anew if that is His will. Do I ever miss in this? Certainly which is why I
also strive to pray not for my will in all things but for His.


"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened" Matt 7:7-8

I fully grasp it and know exactly where you're coming from.

We need to agree to disagree.
 
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Hidden In Him

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Since Paul already made it clear -- within that context -- that prophecies would cease, then why would you be expecting prophetic utterances in contravention to what he said? "Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail" [καταργηθήσονται (katargēthēsontai) = to cease, to render inoperative, abolish].

Hey, Enoch. Been too busy to respond, but I have some time today and I wanted to get to this.

About this first paragraph, when Paul said "prophesies would cease" the context is clearly in Heaven, when we shall finally see "face to face," not when he and the other apostles died. Paul believed his generation would see the return of the Lord Jesus Christ, which makes telling them that the gifts were going to cease when they died a rather strange thing to be teaching in that context.
The last genuine prophet of God was the apostle-prophet John. He not only brought all genuine prophecies to an end in Revelation, but he ended the entire Bible with his last book around 96 AD. The reason there are no more GENUINE prophetic utterances in the churches is right here. Even the Apostolic Fathers would not presume to be either apostles or prophets.

The fathers made numerous references to there continuing to be both prophets and apostles well into the late 2nd century.
God has given us a view of Christ in the Bible which is a reflection of who He is, what He has done, and what He is doing at present. But we know that when He shall appear, we shall be like Him, for we shall SEE HIM AS HE IS -- face-to-face (1 John 3:1-3).

Correct, but by your own admission then, this will be in Heaven, yes? Not when the apostles die.

But here is what I had wanted to point out: You argue in this thread that the gifts have ceased and we now have the written word to guide us. The problem with this argument is that we interpret the word of God through our own consciences. I can show you in scripture that even the apostle Paul did not trust his own conscience. So how should common believers be expected to trust their own consciences to be more accurate assessments of what God thinks of us than a direct utterances from the Spirit of God? Granted, gifts can be plagurized - faked is the better word - but the question is how well are we seeing ourselves, and your solution as a Cessationist doesn't merely fall back on the word of God; it falls back on the human mind to interpret the word of God properly, and the human conscience to apply it properly, both of which IMO are far more faulty foundations to place one's trust in than in Divine utterance directly from the Spirit.

Blessings in Christ.
 

Enoch111

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About this first paragraph, when Paul said "prophesies would cease" the context is clearly in Heaven, when we shall finally see "face to face," not when he and the other apostles died.
No. The context is NOT clearly in Heaven, since the apostle-prophet John made it crystal clear that genuine prophecies ceased after he completed the Revelation. See Revelation 22. There cannot be any more genuine prophecies for Christians.

What Christians should remember is that:
1. The New Testament was written as a continuous document, and chapter and verse divisions were not present in the Greek manuscripts.
2. Many of the chapter and verse divisions are not totally accurate in how they separate different topics.
3. In 1 Corinthians 13 there are three different topics which follow each other, and if we keep that in mind there will be no confusion. So let's look at that chapter.

THE GREATEST SPIRITUAL GIFT IS LOVE (AGAPE = CHARITY)
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed
the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
4 Charity suffereth long,
and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things...
13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

THREE SPIRITUAL GIFTS WILL CEASE WITH A COMPLETE BIBLE
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect [COMPLETE] is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.


WE WILL KNOW EVERYTHING PERFECTLY AFTER WE SEE CHRIST FACE TO FACE
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

So what Paul is saying here is that even though we have a complete Bible we have not literally seen Christ face to face. Rather we have seen Him "mirrored" in Scripture [through a glass (or mirror) darkly (or indistinctly)]. At the same time he has noted that the three spiritual gifts related to divine revelation -- prophecies, tongues, and supernatural knowledge -- will not be necessary when we have a complete Bible. As long as there was an incomplete New Testament, the apostles and prophets were either speaking or writing prophetically. But with the completion of Revelation, that was no longer necessary. And that exactly what John tells us:

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: (Rev 22:18)
 

Hidden In Him

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No. The context is NOT clearly in Heaven, since the apostle-prophet John made it crystal clear that genuine prophecies ceased after he completed the Revelation. See Revelation 22.

What? Because He said "if anyone adds to the prophesies of this book"? LoL. You're making the statement say, "if anyone adds to the prophesies of the entire Biblical cannon that won't be officially laid down for another 350 years."
 
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Hidden In Him

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For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: (Rev 22:18)

You're also making it say, "God shall add to him every plague written in the entire Biblical cannon," which would actually make you the one adding to the book, would it not?
 
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