All the ELECT please stand up

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marks

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Simply taking what one knows about the word "foreknow" is the common mistake made by many, and they then assume upon the Gospel and read things into it that are not in Scripture.

Or . . . it's basing our understanding of the Bible on what the words themselves mean.

Repentance . . . metanoia . . . the after mind . . . the result of an exchanged mind . . . having a new mind . . . we had the mind of the flesh, now we have the mind of Christ . . . metanoia . . . now we think about things His way . . . we see sin His way . . . and want to do righteousness . . . His righteousness . . . with His mind, in us. We reject sin, and embrace righteousness, because we have a new mind.

We start with the meaning of the word, we connect it to other passages, with their own meanings, and build a doctrine, which harmonizes with all other passages.

Much love!
 

Preacher4Truth

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Or . . . it's basing our understanding of the Bible on what the words themselves mean.

Repentance . . . metanoia . . . the after mind . . . the result of an exchanged mind . . . having a new mind . . . we had the mind of the flesh, now we have the mind of Christ . . . metanoia . . . now we think about things His way . . . we see sin His way . . . and want to do righteousness . . . His righteousness . . . with His mind, in us. We reject sin, and embrace righteousness, because we have a new mind.

We start with the meaning of the word, we connect it to other passages, with their own meanings, and build a doctrine, which harmonizes with all other passages.

Much love!
Right, and you haven't done any of this with foreknowledge at all. Why not?

In fact, hardly any do this in any type of Bible study which is why their teachings are erroneous.
 
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SovereignGrace

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Or . . . it's basing our understanding of the Bible on what the words themselves mean.

Repentance . . . metanoia . . . the after mind . . . the result of an exchanged mind . . . having a new mind . . . we had the mind of the flesh, now we have the mind of Christ . . . metanoia . . . now we think about things His way . . . we see sin His way . . . and want to do righteousness . . . His righteousness . . . with His mind, in us. We reject sin, and embrace righteousness, because we have a new mind.

We start with the meaning of the word, we connect it to other passages, with their own meanings, and build a doctrine, which harmonizes with all other passages.

Much love!
I have been using Dr. William Mounce’s “Greek for the rest of us”, and he said it like this.

μετανοέω(metanoeō) This does mean to change one’s mind, but that’s not all it means. It means to also change one’s feelings about things as well. Imagine the Pharisees coming to John the Baptist and saying they are going to change their minds in regards to their beliefs but were still going to live in greed. That wouldn’t have made John the Baptist happy at all.

That’s me paraphrasing what Dr. Mounce said about μετανοέω. It’s a change of mind, but it’s not just a change of mind, but actions as well.

Carry this thought over to προγινώσκω (proginōskō). Yes, this means to know beforehand, but it’s more than just that. Here are all the meanings προγινώσκω (proginōskō)....

“of to know beforehand, to be previously acquainted with,
Acts 26:5; 2 Pet. 3:17; to determine on beforehand, to foreordain, 1 Pet. 1:20; in NT, from the Hebrew, to foreknow, to appoint as the subject of future privileges, Rom. 8:29; 11:2

Remember, προγινώσκω (proginōskō) is a verb, meaning it’s something God does. He foreknows them in action, this action foreordaining them to be saved. God foreknows ppl, not their actions. If God foreknew their actions, then they are puppets. Fallen man freely sins, and sins from their sinful hearts.


 
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Heart2Soul

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I have been using Dr. William Mounce’s “Greek for the rest of us”, and he said it like this.

μετανοέω(metanoeō) This does mean to change one’s mind, but that’s not all it means. It means to also change one’s feelings about things as well. Imagine the Pharisees coming to John the Baptist and saying they are going to change their minds in regards to their beliefs but were still going to live in greed. That wouldn’t have made John the Baptist happy at all.

That’s me paraphrasing what Dr. Mounce said about μετανοέω. It’s a change of mind, but it’s not just a change of mind, but actions as well.

Carry this thought over to προγινώσκω (proginōskō). Yes, this means to know beforehand, but it’s more than just that. Here are all the meanings προγινώσκω (proginōskō)....

“of to know beforehand, to be previously acquainted with,
Acts 26:5; 2 Pet. 3:17; to determine on beforehand, to foreordain, 1 Pet. 1:20; in NT, from the Hebrew, to foreknow, to appoint as the subject of future privileges, Rom. 8:29; 11:2

Remember, προγινώσκω (proginōskō) is a verb, meaning it’s something God does. He foreknows them in action, this action foreordaining them to be saved. God foreknows ppl, not their actions. If God foreknew their actions, then they are puppets. Fallen man freely sins, and sins from their sinful hearts.

Help...because this kind ties in with predestined....The Book of Life has already been written. How can that be possible unless He foreknew....
My answer is that He knew all things from beginning to end and nothing is hid from Him.
But to say He already chose for us who would be saved is incorrect. It is just to say that when He saw everything up until the end He saw those who would choose to believe in Him and be saved.
So...it is such a complex subject and needs alot of studying.
 
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SovereignGrace

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Help...because this kind ties in with predestined....The Book of Life has already been written. How can that be possible unless He foreknew....
My answer is that He knew all things from beginning to end and nothing is hid from Him.
But to say He already chose for us who would be saved is incorrect. It is just to say that when He saw everything up until the end He saw those who would choose to believe in Him and be saved.
So...it is such a complex subject and needs alot of studying.
There is a clear chain in Romans 8:28-30 my dear Sister. Whom He foreknew He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. This is election and predestination at work. Whom He predestined He called. Whom He called He justified. Justification is being declared righteous before God via the imputed righteousness of the Christ.[2 Corinthians 5:21] And whom He justified He also glorified. Glorification is when we are resurrected and given a new body that is just like the Christ’s body. So, those He foreknew end up glorified. This link, this golden chain of redemption, is unbreakable. Those whom He foreknew will be glorified. Not one more, not one less.
 
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SovereignGrace

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Help...because this kind ties in with predestined....The Book of Life has already been written. How can that be possible unless He foreknew....
My answer is that He knew all things from beginning to end and nothing is hid from Him.
But to say He already chose for us who would be saved is incorrect. It is just to say that when He saw everything up until the end He saw those who would choose to believe in Him and be saved.
So...it is such a complex subject and needs alot of studying.
You are also conflating His omniscience with foreknowledge. He knows everybody whoever lived, lives now, and will live later. However, He doesn’t foreknow everyone whoever lived, lives now, and will live later. Foreknow in Romans 8:29 is a verb, my dear Sister. It means God is doing something in foreknowing them. I.E. electing them.
 

SovereignGrace

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Help...because this kind ties in with predestined....The Book of Life has already been written. How can that be possible unless He foreknew....
My answer is that He knew all things from beginning to end and nothing is hid from Him.
But to say He already chose for us who would be saved is incorrect. It is just to say that when He saw everything up until the end He saw those who would choose to believe in Him and be saved.
So...it is such a complex subject and needs alot of studying.
What side of the debate do you sit with, if you don’t mind me asking?
 

marks

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Right, and you haven't done any of this with foreknowledge at all. Why not?

In fact, hardly any do this in any type of Bible study which is why their teachings are erroneous.

I'm sorry, what are you saying?

This is one of the ways I study. I look at the words, I look at every place they are used, I use context to define meaning, and from the meanings of words come clauses, from clauses come sentences, then paragraphs, and when all the sentences and paragraphs can harmonize with each other, doctrines form.

And of course, to be pushed immediately away if found to confict with something else in Scripture.

What I've been trying to do is to get someone, anyone to do this study by asking certain questions, by making certain statements, as starting points to walk through these Scriptures.

But so far, those few times when someone actually seems to want to have a civilized conversation with me, they quickly seem to lose interest. Otherwise, it seems to be a lot of, just believe it, and if you don't you're an idiot.

Batches of arguments are thrown at me at once. When I try to follow a single point through, no one wants to.

Given this kind of environment, I like to keep to the most foundational points. In this case, the meaning of Foreknow is in dispute, and the argument for and against Unconditional Election hangs in the balance.

I've presented the basic linguistic evidence, I've shown a clear argument form the context, and I've shown other Scripture which supports my argument.

I haven't just posted lists of verses, and made claims about those verses. I've posted the verses, and explained in detail how it is they mean what I'm presenting.

Others claim that other contexts demand that we understand the word differently. OK, what are those contexts? Post the passages. Exegete the passages. Show your reasoning. Let's look at it.

Let's take a single passage, and examine it together. Believe me, I don't have a dog in any fight, only to know what is true. That's why I'm a Christian to begin with.

Much love!
 
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Heart2Soul

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There is a clear chain in Romans 8:28-30 my dear Sister. Whom He foreknew He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. This is election and predestination at work. Whom He predestined He called. Whom He called He justified. Justification is being declared righteous before God via the imputed righteousness of the Christ.[2 Corinthians 5:21] And whom He justified He also glorified. Glorification is when we are resurrected and given a new body that is just like the Christ’s body. So, those He foreknew end up glorified. This link, this golden chain of redemption, is unbreakable. Those whom He foreknew will be glorified. Not one more, not one less.
Praise God...one more question...how does one get their name blotted out of the Book of Life? Or am I even comparing apples to apples?
 
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Heart2Soul

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You are also conflating His omniscience with foreknowledge. He knows everybody whoever lived, lives now, and will live later. However, He doesn’t foreknow everyone whoever lived, lives now, and will live later. Foreknow in Romans 8:29 is a verb, my dear Sister. It means God is doing something in foreknowing them. I.E. electing them.
Oh well now I am confused again...but these are questions that I have pondered but never studied in depth. So I can appreciate the wisdom of others who can teach me.
 
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Heart2Soul

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You are also conflating His omniscience with foreknowledge. He knows everybody whoever lived, lives now, and will live later. However, He doesn’t foreknow everyone whoever lived, lives now, and will live later. Foreknow in Romans 8:29 is a verb, my dear Sister. It means God is doing something in foreknowing them. I.E. electing them.
Yes I suppose I just did...thanks for correcting me.
 
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SovereignGrace

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Praise God...one more question...how does one get their name blotted out of the Book of Life? Or am I even comparing apples to apples?
Personally, I don’t think they can. God doesn’t make mistakes my Sister. Read Romans 8:28-30 over and over again. Those He foreknew————->glorified. There’s no breaking in that chain.

Here’s a worthwhile read my Sister. Remember, it’s not the Bible, but it uses the Bible to support their beliefs. Go back and read these for yourself.

Is it possible for a person's name to be erased from the Book of Life?
 
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marks

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I have been using Dr. William Mounce’s “Greek for the rest of us”, and he said it like this.

μετανοέω(metanoeō) This does mean to change one’s mind, but that’s not all it means. It means to also change one’s feelings about things as well. Imagine the Pharisees coming to John the Baptist and saying they are going to change their minds in regards to their beliefs but were still going to live in greed. That wouldn’t have made John the Baptist happy at all.

That’s me paraphrasing what Dr. Mounce said about μετανοέω. It’s a change of mind, but it’s not just a change of mind, but actions as well.
Metanoia, being the "after mind", is an whole different mind, and of course, everything will be affected. Thoughts, feelings, values, actions, everything.

You have a new mind, and more than that, you become a new creation, so yes, everything changes. But to be clear, metanoia does not mean, change of action or activity or anything like that. So that while metanoia results in behavioral changes, the word does not mean to change your behavior.

Are we in agreement on this point?

Carry this thought over to προγινώσκω (proginōskō). Yes, this means to know beforehand, but it’s more than just that. Here are all the meanings προγινώσκω (proginōskō)....

“of to know beforehand, to be previously acquainted with,
Acts 26:5; 2 Pet. 3:17; to determine on beforehand, to foreordain, 1 Pet. 1:20; in NT, from the Hebrew, to foreknow, to appoint as the subject of future privileges, Rom. 8:29; 11:2

Remember, προγινώσκω (proginōskō) is a verb, meaning it’s something God does. He foreknows them in action, this action foreordaining them to be saved. God foreknows ppl, not their actions. If God foreknew their actions, then they are puppets. Fallen man freely sins, and sins from their sinful hearts.
Let's pick a particular passage to look at, I find it easier to follow the argument that way.

"I know" is a verb. And in the English, "I know" means that the speaker has a perception/understanding/awareness of facts, like that. To say, in the English, I already know, is still using a verb, Know. I use the expression, "I know" as this is the lexical form of ginosko.

Saying that know is a verb does not affect what it means. What God does is, the action of the verb . . . He knows. He is aware of facts. And saying God does not foreknow someone's actions is to me contrary to the nature of God. Of course He knows everything.

Just like in English where "know" is the verb, the action word.

Much love!
 

marks

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I'd like to point out . . . being a verb does not mean "foreknow" must be a motive force.

We say, "I know my name", things like that. "Know" here is a verb. But I'm not choosing a name when I say I know my name.

If God says, I knew before you were born what your parents would name you, this does not mean that God chose your name instead of your parents. But if God did know your name before you were born, the correct way to say this is God foreknew your name. Just like He foreknew everything there is about you.

Much love!
 

SovereignGrace

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Metanoia, being the "after mind", is an whole different mind, and of course, everything will be affected. Thoughts, feelings, values, actions, everything.

You have a new mind, and more than that, you become a new creation, so yes, everything changes. But to be clear, metanoia does not mean, change of action or activity or anything like that. So that while metanoia results in behavioral changes, the word does not mean to change your behavior.

Are we in agreement on this point?

No my friend. The change of mind brings with it a new change of behavior as well. If someone truly changes their mind, actions change as well. The drunkard won’t live in the bars anymore. The filanderer will become faithful to their spouse. The thief will not steal anymore. Now, I am not saying there won’t be lapses in their lives, but their overall life will be changed. They won’t remain living a sinful lifestyle anymore.

Let's pick a particular passage to look at, I find it easier to follow the argument that way.

"I know" is a verb. And in the English, "I know" means that the speaker has a perception/understanding/awareness of facts, like that. To say, in the English, I already know, is still using a verb, Know. I use the expression, "I know" as this is the lexical form of ginosko.

Saying that know is a verb does not affect what it means. What God does is, the action of the verb . . . He knows. He is aware of facts. And saying God does not foreknow someone's actions is to me contrary to the nature of God. Of course He knows everything.

Just like in English where "know" is the verb, the action word.

Much love!

But foreknowledge is not omniscience. Whom He foreknew———->glorified. Proginosko is a verb.

I know who my mom is, but that’s not a verb. I know who my wife is, now, that’s a verb.:) One is an acknowledgement of someone, the other being intimate with that person. God knows everybody whoever lived, but only intimately knows His elect. One is a noun, the other a verb.
 
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Heart2Soul

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Personally, I don’t think they can. God doesn’t make mistakes my Sister. Read Romans 8:28-30 over and over again. Those He foreknew————->glorified. There’s no breaking in that chain.

Here’s a worthwhile read my Sister. Remember, it’s not the Bible, but it uses the Bible to support their beliefs. Go back and read these for yourself.

Is it possible for a person's name to be erased from the Book of Life?
I read it and agree...which supports my argument that born-again believers who now are the children of God by adoption cannot become unborn...we are His and He will not rebuke us in our weaknesses but will strive with us til the end. Philippians 1:6 is a favorite scripture of mine.....I encourage myself with it often...Being confident of this very thing that he who begun a good work in me will perform it to the coming of Christ Jesus.
So I know he is still perfecting me.:)