All the ELECT please stand up

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

CNKW3

Active Member
May 7, 2019
997
147
43
52
Southeast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You're all over the place. Show us a verse that shows the elect can be deceived. Hint: you're misusing a text, and I know what it says, and it doesn't mean what you're implying.
No, no. You mentioned Jn 1:13 above and have in the past falsely claimed we are saved in the same way as those in John 1. So, my question to you is...
Did those in John 1 have to be baptized with Johns baptism?
Do you?
I will consider what you want when you first consider this.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nancy

CNKW3

Active Member
May 7, 2019
997
147
43
52
Southeast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Nope, your loss.
You are now in a long line of people that won’t answer questions. You nor anybody else seems to think they have to defend anything they say. You talk about me and judging (passing judgement on me) I then ask for you to explain when it’s right to judge, and you say , nope! Not gonna do it.
 

Nancy

Well-Known Member
Apr 30, 2018
16,761
25,324
113
Buffalo, Ny
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Hi Nancy,

I appreciate your care for me! My hope is unassailable! My Creator is here with me. He loves, He will never ever leave me for a moment. He never has.

I just have a thing that I like to hold people accountable. I've been in internet debate forums for about 20 years. I've generally settled into 1 at t time an stay a long time. I've seen 2 go from crazy active to virtually nothing, unhappily. But there were reasons.

I've seen the anger that gets directed against those who disagree with this doctrine, but I see it for what it is. The one who has faith eats.

My hope is that others may see where logical fallacies are used, and that it might mean something! When important questions remain unanswered, and that this would mean something! When all the dodging and insulting and fallacies are stripped away, and a true discussion can happen.

I'll answer any question anyone asks of me. I think about Paul writing about not presenting the Gospel in any underhanded way. Straight forward, above board, that is me. But not everything is useful at every time. I've actually been pursuing this question for a few weeks, if memory serves.

I'm not really interested in moving past it. You know, the fact is, you're most likely right. But for a different reason, I think.

Much love!
" My hope is unassailable! "
♥ Hallaulah and praise the King of Kings.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Helen

Preacher4Truth

Well-Known Member
Feb 15, 2019
2,252
2,861
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You are now in a long line of people that won’t answer questions. You nor anybody else seems to think they have to defend anything they say. You talk about me and judging (passing judgement on me) I then ask for you to explain when it’s right to judge, and you say , nope! Not gonna do it.
You read things into what people say that aren't there and then do the same with Bible.

That explains a lot!
 
  • Like
Reactions: SovereignGrace

lforrest

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Admin
Aug 10, 2012
5,546
6,793
113
Faith
Christian
You are now in a long line of people that won’t answer questions. You nor anybody else seems to think they have to defend anything they say. You talk about me and judging (passing judgement on me) I then ask for you to explain when it’s right to judge, and you say , nope! Not gonna do it.

To what can I compare this generation? They are like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling out to others:
 
  • Like
Reactions: marks and Helen

Heart2Soul

Spiritual Warrior
Staff member
May 10, 2018
9,863
14,508
113
65
Tulsa
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Hear what the Holy Spirit has to say....
No man can know what is the mind of God...1 Corinthians 2 BSB
Do we continually post on this forum purporting to know what God intends to say?
Stop....be led of the Holy Spirit and answer accordingly.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Helen and Nancy

CNKW3

Active Member
May 7, 2019
997
147
43
52
Southeast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Hear what the Holy Spirit has to say....
No man can know what is the mind of God...1 Corinthians 2 BSB
Do we continually post on this forum purporting to know what God intends to say?
Stop....be led of the Holy Spirit and answer accordingly.
That is not what 1 Cor 2 says. We can’t know unless he reveals and what he has revealed is found in the book he has left us.
Dt 29:29 tells us that the secret things belong to the Lord but what has been revealed belongs to us.
We can know the mind and will of God through study of his word. The HS does not lead today apart from the word he has left us. He leads through his word. That’s the problem, people are thinking they are getting some kind of special treatment and they aren’t. Go to my 1 Cor 2 is abused thread.
The HS is not going to tell us something through his word and then tell you something different. Not gonna happen.
 

Heart2Soul

Spiritual Warrior
Staff member
May 10, 2018
9,863
14,508
113
65
Tulsa
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That is not what 1 Cor 2 says. We can’t know unless he reveals and what he has revealed is found in the book he has left us.
Dt 29:29 tells us that the secret things belong to the Lord but what has been revealed belongs to us.
We can know the mind and will of God through study of his word. The HS does not lead today apart from the word he has left us. He leads through his word. That’s the problem, people are thinking they are getting some kind of special treatment and they aren’t. Go to my 1 Cor 2 is abused thread.
The HS is not going to tell us something through his word and then tell you something different. Not gonna happen.
You didn't get the intent of what I was saying. There shouldn't be so much disagreement concerning His Word....we should pray and seek God's wisdom in scripture and share what is given us by revelation through the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit gives us the understanding of scripture according to His Will...and it says no man can know His thoughts except the Spirit of God.
Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 2:10-12 - King James Version
 
  • Like
Reactions: Helen and Enoch111

Mjh29

Well-Known Member
May 28, 2017
1,466
1,433
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
n your claim that Chris uses an unbiblical definition of foreknowledge, would you mind showing from the Bible your definition?

Hi! Though this was not addressed to me, I will do my best to answer. I personally cannot give you one verse that proves this definition true. The Bible is not a dictionary, therefore trying to find one verse to prove a point is quite futile. However, when taken and compared to the rest of Scripture, we can come to an understanding of what the definition of foreknowledge is. By making sure that our definition does not in any way contradict any one verse in Scripture, and indeed fits with the message. We could go through and do that if you wish, though I will warn you; it will take some time.

Since the basic linguistic meaning of the word is to know ahead of time, where do we find this defined another way?

This is quite a tricky question. In the Greek, the word Proginosko means the same as to foreordain. While it does mean to know before, it does not mean to know actions before. God "knew us before" in the sense that He elected us, but not in the sense that He chose based on actions, because that would contradict Romans 9:11. This is what [I believe] Brother Anthony was eluding to; that if a definition does not line up with Scriptures, it cannot be the correct definition.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SovereignGrace

CNKW3

Active Member
May 7, 2019
997
147
43
52
Southeast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You didn't get the intent of what I was saying. There shouldn't be so much disagreement concerning His Word....we should pray and seek God's wisdom in scripture and share what is given us by revelation through the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit gives us the understanding of scripture according to His Will...and it says no man can know His thoughts except the Spirit of God.
Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 2:10-12 - King James Version
Well my mistake
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,156
21,420
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
This is quite a tricky question. In the Greek, the word Proginosko means the same as to foreordain. While it does mean to know before, it does not mean to know actions before. God "knew us before" in the sense that He elected us, but not in the sense that He chose based on actions, because that would contradict Romans 9:11. This is what [I believe] Brother Anthony was eluding to; that if a definition does not line up with Scriptures, it cannot be the correct definition.

hi Mjh29,

Thank you for your response!

On this part bolded . . .
Thayer NT 4267: προγινώσκω
προγινώσκω; 2 aorist 3 person singular προέγνω; perfect passive participle προεγνωσμενος; to have knowledge of beforehand; to foreknow

Strongs; προγινώσκω proginṓskō, prog-in-oce'-ko; from G4253 and G1097; to know beforehand, i.e. foresee:—foreknow (ordain), know (before).

Robertson; Romans 8:29
Foreknew (proegnō). Second aorist active indicative of proginōskō, old verb as in Act_26:5. See Psalms 1:6 (lxx) and Mat_7:23. This fore-knowledge and choice is placed in eternity in Eph_1:4.
He foreordained (proōrisen). First aorist active indicative of proorizō, late verb to appoint beforehand as in Act_4:28; 1Co_2:7. Another compound with prȯ (for eternity).

(He puts "foreordained" as the word after)

Vincent; Did foreknow (προέγνω)
Five times in the New Testament. In all cases it means foreknow. Act_26:5; 1Pe_1:20; 2Pe_3:17; Rom_11:2. It does not mean foreordain. It signifies prescience, not preelection. “It is God's being aware in His plan, by means of which, before the subjects are destined by Him to salvation, He knows whom He has to destine thereto” (Meyer).

These are some of the scholars people often look to in understanding the Greek words. I have my college Koine Greek from many years ago. Not to mention my own set of reference books.

But I fail to see where Foreknew should be understood as predestine, and especially since foreknew and predesting appear side by side, one having been given as the precedent for the other.

As to the constuction of the word itself, Pro is clearly "before, ahead of", ginosko, I know, I understand, I am aware, I perceive; these would all be good translations I believe. But ginosko, I don't think, can be translatable as "determine", "ordain", like that.

What can you show me that this word in Greek means "pre-ordain"?

Much love!
 
Last edited:

Mjh29

Well-Known Member
May 28, 2017
1,466
1,433
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
hi Mjh29,

Thank you for your response!

On this part bolded . . .






(He puts "foreordained" as the word after)



These are some of the scholars people often look to in understanding the Greek words. I have my college Koine Greek from many years ago. Not to mention my own set of reference books.

But I fail to see where Foreknew should be understood as predestine, and especially since foreknew and predesting appear side by side, one having been given as the precedent for the other.

As to the constuction of the word itself, Pro is clearly "before, ahead of", ginosko, I know, I understand, I am aware, I perceive; these would all be good translations I believe. But ginosko, I don't think, can be translatable as "determine", "ordain", like that.

What can you show me that this word in Greek means "pre-ordain"?

Much love!

He foreordained them then predestined them. Again, I believe that our definitions should reflect what the Scriptures teach first and foremost. You definition of the word seems [not sure so feel free to correct me.] to reflect the idea that God foreknows based on the actions of the person foreknown. This directly contradicts Romans 9:11, so it cannot be true. [again, I am not saying you believe this, I am simply stating what I thought you meant. If this is not what you meant, please let me know.]

To foreordain means to know in the sense of knowing as a father knows his son; to set His special love upon them, a love reserved only for His elect. Before the foundation of the world, God foreknew [placed His love upon] some, and those he predestined.
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,156
21,420
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You definition of the word seems [not sure so feel free to correct me.] to reflect the idea that God foreknows based on the actions of the person foreknown.

Hi Mjh29,

I'm not sure how my definitions would imply any such thing. I'm just looking at the word itself as a starting point.

I've posted a number of sources which show a different meaning from "pre-ordain", with the exception of one mention by Strong.

I've mentioned my own education on the topic, which was not in a doctrinal setting, it was just teaching me Greek.

I've mentioned the breakdown on the word itself, showing no overlap with the idea of "preordained".

I'm not positing any use to the word at the moment. We're talking about what it means. Your definition appears to me to be contrary to what is widely understood as the meaning of that Greek word.

The context in Romans 8:29 does not, so far as I can tell, say what exactly God foreknew.

Much love!
 

Enoch111

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2018
17,688
15,996
113
Alberta
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
...God foreknows based on the actions of the person foreknown...
God foreknows simply because He is God. He is not governed by the actions of men, but He already knows what will take place from the very beginning.

Divine foreknowledge is NOT the same as predestination, since all things are not predetermined. But some things clearly are. The crucifixion and sacrifice of Christ as the Lamb of God on the cross was BOTH foreknown and predetermined by God. It was a divine necessity.

So in God's FOREKNOWLEDGE He knows who will believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved. Therefore He predetermines that they will also be perfected in Christ.

We need to carefully note what is stated in Romans 8:29,30:

For whom he did foreknow, (FOREKNOWLEDGE CAME FIRST)

he also did predestinate (THEN PREDESTINATION)

to be conformed to the image of his Son (FOR PERFECTION)

that he might be the firstborn among many brethren (ALL BELIEVERS TO RESEMBLE CHRIST FOR ETERNITY)

THE GOSPEL CALL IS NECESSARY
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called:

THOSE WHO BELIEVE ARE JUSTIFIED (DECLARED RIGHTEOUS)
and whom he called, them he also justified:

THOSE WHO ARE JUSTIFIED WILL ALSO BE GLORIFIED (PERFECTED)
and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tzcho2

Preacher4Truth

Well-Known Member
Feb 15, 2019
2,252
2,861
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
He foreordained them then predestined them. Again, I believe that our definitions should reflect what the Scriptures teach first and foremost. You definition of the word seems [not sure so feel free to correct me.] to reflect the idea that God foreknows based on the actions of the person foreknown. This directly contradicts Romans 9:11, so it cannot be true. [again, I am not saying you believe this, I am simply stating what I thought you meant. If this is not what you meant, please let me know.]

To foreordain means to know in the sense of knowing as a father knows his son; to set His special love upon them, a love reserved only for His elect. Before the foundation of the world, God foreknew [placed His love upon] some, and those he predestined.

Yes, this is found out not just from defining a word, but in looking at the usage of this concept throughout Scripture. Just like in defining biblical "repentance." We cannot conclude in a cursory manner that this only means "a change of mind" and go on to say that it has nothing to do with "repentance of sin." Many then go on to deny the real meaning of repentance, and deny that it has a thing to do with sin. How was it used in God's economy and throughout Scripture? That shows us the real meaning.

One thing we can conclude based upon other Biblical truths is foreknowledge, election and predestination cannot mean that God predestined some to eternal life (which is entailed in being conformed to the image of his son) based upon him seeing what they would do with his Son and gospel. This would be merit based, or, meritorious salvation. Bottom line is it would be a denial of grace and a false gospel: Grace is not merited.

Instead, God elected his people unto eternal life, and the details of this are in 2 Thessalonians 2:13; also in John 6; Ephesians 1, John 17, 1 Pweter 1:1ff' 2 Peter 1:1ff and even aforementioned in Genesis 12-15 via the message to Abram/Abraham. God did this by foreknowing, by foreknowledge, or, setting his love on them based only on his grace and according to his purpose.

Simply taking what one knows about the word "foreknow" is the common mistake made by many, and they then assume upon the Gospel and read things into it that are not in Scripture.
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,156
21,420
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
To foreordain means to know in the sense of knowing as a father knows his son; to set His special love upon them, a love reserved only for His elect. Before the foundation of the world, God foreknew [placed His love upon] some, and those he predestined.

I remember reading this in John MacArthur's book, The Love of God.

Something like, God loves everyone, but He loves the elect with a better kind of love. Is that how you think also?

Much love!

(not to distract from the question)