Please explain this.

[Grailhunter]

The scriptures listed reference faith.
Likewise you are not going to come up with a scripture that lists all that is required to be saved. You can bet someone will want to add to the list.

 

[GodsGrace]

You appear to believe, from my understanding of your posts, that we maintain our salvation by works. This to me, is the same thing as salvation by works.

Yes, you understand correctly. I've posted a lot of scripture to which you do not reply....so let's do this:

Please show me where Jesus said that we are saved ONLY by being born again and then have NOTHING to do. And if you're going to post John 6:47...PLEASE explain what the word BELIEVE means. (at the time that Jesus used it).

While you're at it maybe you'd care to explain what sanctification means.
Why would there be two words for our salvation?
Justification
Sanctification

Surely it must be that they mean two entirely different concepts.

It is the Lord declaring that a man is righteous. And since it is impossible for God to lie, it is to a certain extent making the same man righteous (see Romans 5:19, Titus 1:2, Hebrews 6:18).

Kind of.
It is God declaring that a man is forgiven of his sins and is now born again.
Is this all it means to be righteous with God?
Or is righteousness on-going?

IOW,,,,once I'm declared righteous, could I return to a life of sin and STILL
be saved?

If you reply YES...then we all know that you've misunderstood something about salvation.

If you reply NO...then perhaps the new life you live can be called a work?

Of course, no one can keep the law perfectly. Yet it is what is required of anyone who would attempt to obtain righteousness/salvation/ entrance into the kingdom by virtue of their works.

As I've said repeatedly, NO ONE is saved by works.
Does ANYTHING come AFTER salvation?
Is anything required of us?

Faith is the work of God according to the scripture in question (John 6:28-29)

Could you exegete please?
I hate the verse ping pong game.

This has to do with reaping a harvest of souls in evangelism...not our own personal salvation.

Don't know what verse you're referring to.
Please post it.

Think with me about John 5:29. Those who have done evil will be raised to a resurrection of damnation. Yet the Bible teaches us that all of us have done evil (Romans 3:23). So, are all raised to the resurrection of damnation?

John 5:28-29 This is JESUS SPEAKING. I like to go by what HE says since HE WILL BE the one judging those that did good deeds and those that did evil deeds.
You're tying this in with Romans 3:23 which is something PAUL said. Who do YOU trust more?
We are all evil before salvation. Jesus clearly said that we will be judged by our deeds...perhaps He is speaking about after salvation. There are other verses where Jesus claims the unlawful will be lost. Like Mathew 7:23 and more...

This is false doctrine. It is not a requirement to obey the Lord after we are saved but a privilege. We do it because we want to, not because we have to. See Psalms 110:3.

iT'S NOT a requirement to obey the Lord?
Nuff said.
Again you go back to the O.T. How about listening to what JESUS said?

If we are attempting to obtain (or otherwise maintain) our salvation by works (whether continued or otherwise), then we are required to keep the whole law (Galatians 3:10, James 2:10, Matthew 5:48). This includes all 613 commandments.

The above statement is nonsense.
A way to make salvation easier for yourself.
Easy believism is what pastors call it.
How are you required to keep the whole law?
Where's the temple?
Have you placed your hand on a lamb lately to transfer your sins to it,,,and did the High Priest slay it in your stead?

Or did Jesus die in your stead?
The civil and ceremonial laws are NO LONGER in effect.

The moral law is in effect and any law that Jesus spoke of.

 

[Earburner]

All I read here is that we are justified or made righteous by faith ALONE. Show me one passage that states we are saved by faith alone.

KJV- John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned [is saved]:

but he that believeth not is condemned already [remains unsaved],
because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[GodsGrace]

No argument there. However, I would say to you that it is not the obedience that saves. If we are not obedient, then we are deceiving ourselves to think that we are saved by faith. But from a theological/doctrinal perspective, salvation is not of works. Period. Ephesians 2:9 and context.

Paul is saying that works, period, are the issue. If you think that what you do (as righteous acts) is what saves you, then you are required to keep all 613 commandments.

I'm sorry JBF,,,it's apparent you don't understand what works are when Paul speaks about them.
You need to learn the difference between WORKS OF THE LAW
and WORKS of FAITH or WORKS.

I can't teach you this.

This is speaking of the fact that we must abide in Him in order to maintain salvation. Now if we abide in Him, we will continue in His goodness. But we do not abide in Him through walking in goodness. We abide in Him through being connected to the vine; and this means relationship. You can do all kinds of good works; but if you do not have a relationship with Christ it will avail you nothing. The fruit on your branch will be dead, not flourishing.

JESUS SAID: The branches that do not produce fruit....MY FATHER TAKES AWAY.

TAkes Away means God removes the branches that do not bear fruit from the vine.
It means those branches ARE DEAD.

You really should read those verses again.

If someone believes on Him, they have everlasting life...this indicates a life that will never end. John 6:47. This refers to a heart faith and righteousness that is enduring to the end, Romans 10:10, Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 3:14, Matthew 10:22. The faith spoken of in Luke 8:13 is a shallow, lukewarm, or nominal faith; which amounts to a mental assent to the tenets of the gospel. Which can still be called faith...but it is a faith that exists only in the brain and has not entered into the heart so that it produces righteousness and perseverance.

IF you BELIEVE on HIM you will be saved. Correct.
What does believe mean?
Doesn't it mean to follow Jesus and be a disciple...what does a disciple do but learn from his teacher.
What did Jesus teach us to do?
Just have faith?
Faith alone does not save....I'm still waiting for a verse where Jesus states that all one needs is faith and he will be saved.
Jesus came to teach us how to live.....
not just to have faith.

And just so I understand...does the person in Luke 8:13 have temporary salvation?

Mat 7:23, And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Iniquity is deeper than lawlessness...it is the sin that exists at the very core level, in the heart. Jesus said to make the inside of the cup and platter clean so that the outside may also be clean.

To practice iniquity is to practice lawlessness.
He who practices lawlessness is practicing iniquity.

Iniquity means a lot of sinning, to the point that it changes a person.

I can't think of where Jesus said it directly off the top of my hat...but He said it indirectly through Paul when Paul wrote Galatians 5:22-23.

That jogged my memory...of course it is in John 15:1-8.

It's in John 15:1-8 !!!

WHERE?

Jesus is saying the opposite!
He's saying that we MUST produce fruit or be CUT OFF the vine.

 

[GodsGrace]

He said that the Holy Spirit would lead us into all truth and that the truth would set us free. Jesus' Jewish hearers would have known that the prophet, Jeremiah (see Jeremiah 23:6) said that in the future days of Messiah, He would be called "The LORD is our Righteousness" (Yahweh Tsidqenu in Hebrew). Those Jews who recognized who Jesus was/is, understood that He would be the righteousness that the Law of Moses could not form in them.

Was there anyone in the O.T. that was righteous?
How did they attain that righteousness?
Was it not by having faith in God and obeying God's commands?

Is God the same yesterday, today and tomorrow?
Yes.

So, what has changed....nothing.

Jeremiah 23:6
New American Standard Bible
"In His days Judah will be saved, And Israel will dwell securely; And this is His name by which He will be called, 'The LORD our righteousness.'

I hope you realize that Jeremiah is speaking about a person in the future,,,on King David's throne that will bring righteousness to prevail in the NATION of Israel...since those ruling at that time had caused God's people to be scattered.

It cannot mean each person individually...this concept was not known in the O.T.
Persons were righteous for their own acts.

 

[CNKW3]

Rom 4:5, But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6, Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

If this passage does not say that we are saved by faith alone, at the very least it teaches that we are saved by faith apart from works.

Why did you stop at verse 6? Verse 6 says that David is about to describe the man Paul is talking about. Vs 7&8 tell us that the man whom God imputes righteousness without works is the man whose sins are forgiven. How does that happen today under the new covenant? Through baptism. Mk 16:16, acts 2:38; 3:19; 22:16; Col 2:11-13; Rom 6:3,4,17,18; 1 pet :21
Also
What “works” do you think Paul had in mind when he uses that word within the context of the first few chapters of Romans?

Religion doesn't save anyone.

James says “pure religion” does. 1:26,27

The works considered here are works period.

what does that mean? Works period? Jn 6:28 says that faith is a work? You just did away with all works thereby doing away with faith as well. The Bible uses the word “works” in different ways and if you don’t consider the context and how the word is being used you will get it wrong every time.

Rom 4:5

, But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6, Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

If this passage does not say that we are saved by faith alone, it at the very least teaches that we are saved by faith apart from works.

So I continue by posting vs 7&8 and you just dismiss it? You cut Paul off right in the middle of his explanation. You and many others are being purposefully deceitful..how can I come to any other conclusion. Why didn’t you explain vs 7&8?

This scripture teaches that salvation (the righteousness of God) begins with faith, ends with faith, and is by faith all the way through.

Is the gospel referred to as “the faith”. Yes or know?
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

The Bible teaches we are justified by “the faith” and our faith. They work together as Paul explains in Rom 1:16,17. And Gal 2

It says elsewhere how they received Christ:

Rom 5:1, Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2, By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Therefore, since we received Christ by faith, let us also continue our walk with Him by faith.

If you received Christ through water baptism, then you need to go swimming (underwater) for the rest of your life.

I don’t see the word alone. I also don’t see in your text where they “received Christ”.
In a couple more verses he says we are justified by blood. How can it be by faith ALONE if another element is in involved? Do you also like putting words into Paul’s mouth. I know you like the rest will have a fit if I do that to you.

It teaches that we did not receive the Holy Spirit by our works but rather by the hearing of faith. Since we began by faith (in the Spirit), let us continue in the Spirit, and not seek to be perfected by the flesh (through doing good works in an attempt to maintain our salvation).

Obedience to the truth has to do with believing in Jesus Christ. This is the work of God, that you believe on Him whom He hath sent.

I tried to explain Gal 1-5 is not for us today. Paul was writing to people whom he had given the gifts of the Spirit and that is what he is referring to. Don’t stop reading continue with verse 4&5 and you will know the context.. are people working miracles today? No. Paul would make this appeal from time to time to prove he and his message were truly from God.
2 Cor 11. 2 Cor 12:12

This is a big problem with people on this board. People stop reading. You post your favorite verses and STOP. If you would continue reading, many times the writer gives more information and explains himself. Try considering context for a change.

 

[CNKW3]

To be clear, I am not against water baptism.

I will only say that water baptism is something that is only valid when there is faith in the operation of God.

In a way I would agree with that but I would need more explanation as to what you actually mean.

Would you mind if I tell others in my post that justbyfaith teaches that we are saved ONLY after we are baptized in water? Because that’s how I read this.

 

[CNKW3]

The scriptures listed reference faith.
Likewise you are not going to come up with a scripture that lists all that is required to be saved. You can bet someone will want to add to the list.

You are EXACTLY right. So why does everybody post passages about salvation through faith, claim that it means faith alone, and leave out all the other passages that explain how other elements are required? I don’t get it.
Ps 119:160. The SUM of thy word is truth....ASV

 

[Episkopos]

Was there anyone in the O.T. that was righteous?
How did they attain that righteousness?
Was it not by having faith in God and obeying God's commands?

Is God the same yesterday, today and tomorrow?
Yes.

So, what has changed....nothing.

Jeremiah 23:6
New American Standard Bible
"In His days Judah will be saved, And Israel will dwell securely; And this is His name by which He will be called, 'The LORD our righteousness.'

I hope you realize that Jeremiah is speaking about a person in the future,,,on King David's throne that will bring righteousness to prevail in the NATION of Israel...since those ruling at that time had caused God's people to be scattered.

It cannot mean each person individually...this concept was not known in the O.T.
Persons were righteous for their own acts.

Good post... Right on about the OT.

And in the NT we have this new element..this new kind of life and walk...introduced in the person of Jesus of Nazareth. A seemingly obscure man but from heaven. And this event in history changes everything.

Matthew 13:17
17 for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

Jesus did not come to call the righteous to repentance but to invite them to walk with Him where He abides. Likewise the prophets who were led or guided by the Spirit He offered to take up a permanent residence in the Spirit.
So we see the different levels of obedience to God.

God has upped the ante for a full obedience by making available to us the taking on of the perfected humanity of Jesus in a spiritual walk by faith.

 

[CNKW3]

KJV- John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned [is saved]:

but he that believeth not is condemned already [remains unsaved],
because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

What does he mean by the word “believe” in John 3? Is it just sitting on your couch listening to Charles Stanley, believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God, say some prayer and BINGO! I’m saved!
No, again if people would continue to read. The last verse in the NASB says....
John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; BUT he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
To truly “believe” on Christ is to OBEY Christ.
Heb 5:9 christ is the author of eternal salvation to all them that OBEY HIM!
I wish more people would keep reading and let the writer explain what he actually means instead all you folks adding false doctrine to it.

It’s the first day of the week, it’s 8:45, let’s go worship the Lord with those of “like precious faith”.

 

[Grailhunter]

You are EXACTLY right. So why does everybody post passages about salvation through faith, claim that it means faith alone, and leave out all the other passages that explain how other elements are required? I don’t get it.
Ps 119:160. The SUM of thy word is truth....ASV

Legitimate point and if you look into Christian history it is the number one factor that caused the church to splinter into different denominations. They key on a point of salvation and then name a denomination after it. There are certainly scriptures that only list faith as the requirement to be saved or for salvation. But like I said, people want to add to that. I have no magic scripture to clear up this debate that has been going on for centuries. The best I can do is tell you my belief....which not all people will agree with and I respect that. Like I said I get along with, and go to church with many denominations. But what I believe is that the saved status is an instant in time....caused by faith alone...faith in Christ, and it is permanent and completely makes the person ineligible for hell. But it is not a ticket to the highest heaven....the Holy Court of God. From that instant of belief, starts that journey that is salvation and sanctification. Christ only used the word salvation five times in the gospels. The reason for that I believe is that, overall that journey really could not start until He was crucified and resurrected. I believe salvation and sanctification is our lifelong walk with Christ and the merits of that walk affect our position in heaven. I believe we can make our mistakes on that journey that will negatively effect our heavenly reward, but I do not believe we can loose our saved status and there will be no Christians in hell. Still this is a belief.

 

[charity]

James 2:20-21
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
(NKJ)

Okay, then how do you explain this?
He was accounted righteous before God several years earlier, BEFORE the birth of Isaac, and before he had done anything to "prove" his faith in God. Check it out in Genesis 15;4-6 below..

Genesis 15:4-6
4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir."
5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."
6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
(NKJ)

It seems that God accounted him righteous solely for his faith in His Promises, and not by anything that he did. There is nothing in Genesis 15 that mentions any works that Abraham did. Paul accurately reports this. It seems that James did not consider the account in Genesis 15. It was not until Genesis 22, many years after Isaac was born, when Abraham was well over 100 years old, that he agreed to offer Isaac.

James writes:
22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.
23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.
24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

Neither of those last two statements are in the Genesis 15:4-6 account.
Nowhere does the OT Scripture say that Abraham "was called God's friend" BECAUSE he was willing to offer up his son Isaac. In Isaiah 41:8 it states that God called Abraham His friend but nowhere in the context of the chapter does He say it was because Abraham offered up his son Isaac.

What James wrote, as shown above, are direct contradiction of the Gospel that Paul taught and the account given in Genesis 15:4-6. Abraham was before God solely because he believed God’s promises.

The religious who advocate works can argue this until they are blue in the face but it does not change the FACTS as shown in Genesis.

In my opinion the book of James is devoid of the gospel of grace as taught by Paul.

However, it was compatible with the law of Moses. Since the word of God has to be based on truth, I find the book of James is not based on FAITH in Christ’s work on the cross but only on works of the law and is not for this age of God’s grace. The very fact that it was addressed to Jews (James 1:1) is more proof that it was only for the Jews who were under the law.

It remains to be seen that the religious will try to destroy what I have written by attacking me, personally, and it will show that they want people to believe we are under the law in this age of God’s grace. They can easily attack me but they can not say that the scriptures I have presented do not say what I have reported them to say.

Under grace a person must place their faith (belief) in God’s promise of salvation based on their belief in what He (Jesus) did on the cross where He paid for the sins of the whole world. Through the gospel of grace that was given to Paul God, Himself, paid for the sins of the world and a person has to believe it to have salvation. If they do not then they are condemned because they do not believe God.

Hello @H.Richard,

James could write about justification by faith, but he was writing, 'to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad', (James 1:1) so it was necessary that he should show that it had to be a living faith, accompanied by works.

* A righteousness of God without works had not yet been fully revealed. The epistle to the Romans had not yet been written. Therefore, justification must be like Abraham's faith and that of Rahab. For faith is like the human body, without spirit it is dead. By God breathing 'spirit' (or the breath of life) into man's nostrils, man 'became a living soul' - and without that spirit he 'becomes a dead soul'. So faith also without works is dead having no evidence of life, and giving no sign of it. Hence, James appeals to Abraham who 'believed God' but manifested that it was a living faith by his obedience in going out from his country and his kindred (2 :27).

* James' purpose (and that of the twelve), unlike Paul, was to confirm what had, 'began to be spoken by the Lord', and not to go beyond that.

'For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast,
and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation;
which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord,
and was confirmed unto us by them that heard Him;
God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders,
and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost,
according to His own will?
(Hebrews 2:2-4)

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[GodsGrace]

Legitimate point and if you look into Christian history it is the number one factor that caused the church to splinter into different denominations. They key on a point of salvation and then name a denomination after it. There are certainly scriptures that only list faith as the requirement to be saved or for salvation. But like I said, people want to add to that. I have no magic scripture to clear up this debate that has been going on for centuries. The best I can do is tell you my belief....which not all people will agree with and I respect that. Like I said I get along with, and go to church with many denominations. But what I believe is that the saved status is an instant in time....caused by faith alone...faith in Christ, and it is permanent and completely makes the person ineligible for hell. But it is not a ticket to the highest heaven....the Holy Court of God. From that instant of belief, starts that journey that is salvation and sanctification. Christ only used the word salvation five times in the gospels. The reason for that I believe is that, overall that journey really could not start until He was crucified and resurrected. I believe salvation and sanctification is our lifelong walk with Christ and the merits of that walk affect our position in heaven. I believe we can make our mistakes on that journey that will negatively effect our heavenly reward, but I do not believe we can loose our saved status and there will be no Christians in hell. Still this is a belief.

You're right that this has been going on for centuries.
But Revelation says that nothing unclean will enter heaven.
Do you believe that it's POSSIBLE for a born again believer to return to a life of sin?

 

[H. Richard]

Hello @H.Richard,

James could write about justification by faith, but he was writing, 'to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad', (James 1:1) so it was necessary that he should show that it had to be a living faith, accompanied by works.

* A righteousness of God without works had not yet been fully revealed. The epistle to the Romans had not yet been written. Therefore, justification must be like Abraham's faith and that of Rahab. For faith is like the human body, without spirit it is dead. By God breathing 'spirit' (or the breath of life) into man's nostrils, man 'became a living soul' - and without that spirit he 'becomes a dead soul'. So faith also without works is dead having no evidence of life, and giving no sign of it. Hence, James appeals to Abraham who 'believed God' but manifested that it was a living faith by his obedience in going out from his country and his kindred (2 :27).

* James' purpose (and that of the twelve), unlike Paul, was to confirm what had, 'began to be spoken by the Lord', and not to go beyond that.

'For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast,
and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation;
which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord,
and was confirmed unto us by them that heard Him;
God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders,
and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost,
according to His own will?
(Hebrews 2:2-4)

In Christ Jesus
Chris

So far a great reply. However, today, under grace, we are saved by God's grace, alone, through the shed blood of Jesus on the cross. The way into Heaven is through Jesus' blood on the cross. A child of God has been made a child of God not because of their works but because of Jesus' work on the cross.

Works have their place but they do not, and cannot, buy a person's way into Heaven. Nor can they keep a child of God out of Heaven as the religious (James) say. The only way into Heaven is through faith in Jesus' work (His shed blood on the cross) on the cross.

What I have said here is what I believe. It is written in simple language but some will say I am saying something else in order to make me defend their false ideas about what I am saying. I get tired of this.

I do wish people would just say they disagree but that would not give them the opportunity to elevate themselves over me.f

The religious do not want people to trust (have faith) in Jesus' work on the cross to save them. They want to keep people under the tyranny of religious works.

 

[GodsGrace]

So far a great reply. However, today, under grace, we are saved by God's grace, alone, through the shed blood of Jesus on the cross. The way into Heaven is through Jesus' blood on the cross. A child of God has been made a child of God not because of their works but because of Jesus' work on the cross.

Works have their place but they do not, and cannot, buy a person's way into Heaven. Nor can they keep a child of God out of Heaven as the religious (James) say. The only way into Heaven is through faith in Jesus' work (His shed blood on the cross) on the cross.

What I have said here is what I believe. It is written in simple language but some will say I am saying something else in order to make me defend their false ideas about what I am saying. I get tired of this.

I do wish people would just say they disagree but that would not give them the opportunity to elevate themselves over me.f

The religious do not want people to trust (have faith) in Jesus' work on the cross to save them. They want to keep people under the tyranny of religious works.

Your last sentence is not true, misleading, and in bad taste since it's not true.

The reason people don't agree with you is because you don't seem to understand the difference between
Works under the Law
and Works/good deeds.

You keep repeating that works don't save and we all agree with you.

WHAT HAPPENS AFTER YOU GET SAVED?
Are you required to do good works/deeds OR NOT?

That's a yes or no answer.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hello @H.Richard,

James could write about justification by faith, but he was writing, 'to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad', (James 1:1) so it was necessary that he should show that it had to be a living faith, accompanied by works.

* A righteousness of God without works had not yet been fully revealed. The epistle to the Romans had not yet been written. Therefore, justification must be like Abraham's faith and that of Rahab. For faith is like the human body, without spirit it is dead. By God breathing 'spirit' (or the breath of life) into man's nostrils, man 'became a living soul' - and without that spirit he 'becomes a dead soul'. So faith also without works is dead having no evidence of life, and giving no sign of it. Hence, James appeals to Abraham who 'believed God' but manifested that it was a living faith by his obedience in going out from his country and his kindred (2 :27).

* James' purpose (and that of the twelve), unlike Paul, was to confirm what had, 'began to be spoken by the Lord', and not to go beyond that.

'For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast,
and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation;
which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord,
and was confirmed unto us by them that heard Him;
God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders,
and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost,
according to His own will?
(Hebrews 2:2-4)

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Did JESUS not know what He was preaching and teaching?

Why do we say that something or other was not known yet?

You mean Jesus couldn't just say what He meant?
He had to wait to die and then give His message to Paul?

 

[Grailhunter]

You're right that this has been going on for centuries.
But Revelation says that nothing unclean will enter heaven.
Do you believe that it's POSSIBLE for a born again believer to return to a life of sin?

I wish I could remember where I first heard this explanation, but it goes like this, Grace as in Christ's Grace that is extend to us, is like a white coat. No matter what we are not perfect, maybe we do not know enough on how to be perfect...but perfect we are not. Because of this coat of Grace we are justified, even though not perfect. The sacrificial death of Christ did more than pay the debt of sin for all that believe in Him. It broke the slate...the system that tallied our Old Testament sins. The sacrifices of the Old Testament appeased God, but did not forgive sins. The perfect sacrifice of Christ put an end to that system of sin. The sins of Christians are between us and Christ. Forgiveness is one of the tenants of Christianity and as we forgive others, we also relieve our pain. Can a mafia assassin go to heaven? Repentance is a possibility for all. Ever read the book "The Shack" Interesting. He forgave his father and his father forgave him and he forgave the man that killed his daughter and it relieved his pain. Lady GodsGrace, we are going to sin, but we are not dirty rags before God. We are in the family of God, and at times God spanks us, and at times we are good. At the Last Supper Christ called His Apostles, His friends, even though the scriptures indicate that not all of them believed. What we do affects what happens in the hereafter...but I still say...no Christians in hell.

 

[charity]

Did JESUS not know what He was preaching and teaching?

Why do we say that something or other was not known yet?

You mean Jesus couldn't just say what He meant?
He had to wait to die and then give His message to Paul?

Hello @GodsGrace

The Lord spoke only those things that the Father Himself spoke through Him. His purpose was to do the will of His Father and to accomplish His will.

God's timing is perfect, He orders things according to His foreknowledge. The twelve, including James, had a divinely ordered purpose to fulfil, as did Paul. There were things kept 'secret' for a purpose, and revealed when God's timing was right.

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[GodsGrace]

I wish I could remember where I first heard this explanation, but it goes like this, Grace as in Christ's Grace that is extend to us, is like a white coat. No matter what we are not perfect, maybe we do not know enough on how to be perfect...but perfect we are not. Because of this coat of Grace we are justified, even though not perfect. The sacrificial death of Christ did more than pay the debt of sin for all that believe in Him. It broke the slate...the system that tallied our Old Testament sins. The sacrifices of the Old Testament appeased God, but did not forgive sins. The perfect sacrifice of Christ put an end to that system of sin. The sins of Christians are between us and Christ. Forgiveness is one of the tenants of Christianity and as we forgive others, we also relieve our pain. Can a mafia assassin go to heaven? Repentance is a possibility for all. Ever read the book "The Shack" Interesting. He forgave his father and his father forgave him and he forgave the man that killed his daughter and it relieved his pain. Lady GodsGrace, we are going to sin, but we are not dirty rags before God. We are in the family of God, and at times God spanks us, and at times we are good. At the Last Supper Christ called His Apostles, His friends, even though the scriptures indicate that not all of them believed. What we do affects what happens in the hereafter...but I still say...no Christians in hell.

You're not getting off so easy!
I believe all you've stated.

I didn't say: IF A PERSON SINS.
We all sin.

I said: RETURNS TO A LIFE OF SIN.

Do you see the difference?
Can I be a Christian if I live a life of sin AFTER "accepting" Jesus as my Savior.
Have I accepted Him as my Lord?

I guess what I'm really asking is:
Do you believe in eternal security?
Or is there a condition?

 

[GodsGrace]

Hello @GodsGrace

The Lord spoke only those things that the Father Himself spoke through Him. His purpose was to do the will of His Father and to accomplish His will.

God's timing is perfect, He orders things according to His foreknowledge. The twelve, including James, had a divinely ordered purpose to fulfil, as did Paul. There were things kept 'secret' for a purpose, and revealed when God's timing was right.

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

What secrets?
The only secret I know about is that the Gentiles were going to be included in God's salvation plan.

To say that Jesus had to give His message to a man is to belittle His ministry and His life on earth and maybe even His death.

When I want to know something....I go to Jesus' words first.
He's God...HE knows the truth.