Please explain this.

[Lady Crosstalk]

Hey we could do this....lets start looking to the Old Covenant for wisdom and Laws.....
Lev. 15:19-30 The rape of a virgin female that is engaged to another man
If there is a girl who is a virgin engaged to a man, and another man finds her in the city and lies with her, then you shall bring them both out to the gate of the city and you shall stone them to death; the girl, because she did not cry out in the city, and the man, because he has violated his neighbor’s wife. Thus you shall purge the evil from among you. I think this would be the kind of Wisdom and Law that Christ
would back us on...what do say?

To be fair, it is speaking of true rape (if she cried out and was not helped) vs. voluntary adultery on her part. If she was truly raped, she would be permitted to live but she would be disgraced ("used goods"), so she could never marry. She would be forced to live with her father until he died and then one of her brothers would have to take her in and provide for her. But, she would get some measure of justice as the rapist would be executed.

On the other hand, the penalty for adultery, for both the man and the woman, was execution. Those who wanted to stone "the woman caught in adultery" were in violation of the Law of Moses as the Law specified that BOTH the man and the woman be stoned. Where was the man?

Middle Eastern "justice" was not very merciful but it was what it was. At least in Israel, she kept her life, if she was truly raped. Among the pagans and heathens in the ancient Middle East, she would be assumed to be guilty and she would be stoned along with the rapist.

 

[Grailhunter]

To be fair, it is speaking of true rape (if she cried out and was not helped) vs. voluntary adultery on her part. If she was truly raped, she would be permitted to live but she would be disgraced ("used goods"), so she could never marry. She would be forced to live with her father until he died and then one of her brothers would have to take her in and provide for her. But, she would get some measure of justice as the rapist would be executed.

On the other hand, the penalty for adultery, for both the man and the woman, was execution. Those who wanted to stone "the woman caught in adultery" were in violation of the Law of Moses as the Law specified that BOTH the man and the woman be stoned. Where was the man?

Middle Eastern "justice" was not very merciful but it was what it was. At least in Israel, she kept her life, if she was truly raped. Among the pagans and heathens in the ancient Middle East, she would be assumed to be guilty and she would be stoned along with the rapist.

In the Old Testament women were property and if she was being raped she was required to scream even if it would cost her her life. If not she would be killed. Again, as Christians do you think this is right or smart....something we want in Christianity.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

This is classic Hebrew...
Numbers 31
17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

18 But all the women-children, that have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

We could do this....This is truly the spirit of Christianity!....The wisdom of the Jews. I can hear Christ saying it now...
Should we start a movement to incorporate as much of this into Christianity as possible....come on lets see what the other think.

Israel was "between the rock and the hard place"--they could not permit most of their enemies (God said that the Land was "vomiting them out") to live. Their enemies would be constantly searching for "pay back" to them--for generations to come--the inhabitants of Canaan were really, really depraved (read the Ras Shamras documents for just how bad). The fact that the Israelites got lazy about wiping out many of their enemies came back to haunt them big time. Rough justice to be sure.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

In the Old Testament women were property and if she was being raped she was required to scream even if it would cost her her life. If not she would be killed. Again, as Christians do you think this is right or smart....something we want in Christianity.

Uh-no! But, those were different times and circumstances.

 

[Grailhunter]

Israel was "between the rock and the hard place"--they could not permit most of their enemies (God said that the Land was "vomiting them out") to live. Their enemies would be constantly searching for "pay back" to them--for generations to come--the inhabitants of Canaan were really, really depraved (read the Ras Shamras documents for just how bad). The fact that the Israelites got lazy about wiping out many of their enemies came back to haunt them big time. Rough justice to be sure.

Still does not justify this. Nor do we want to preach it as wise or right on any level.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Still does not justify this. Nor do we want to preach it as wise or right on any level.

God does not have to justify Himself to us. I agree that we would not want to promote a return to that rough justice (although I would like to see those who rape women and especially children, be locked up for a very long time).

 

[Grailhunter]

Still does not justify this. Nor do we want to preach it as wise or right on any level.

Today the stakes are higher...more dying, the weapons more powerful. The United States nearly stands alone against terrorism. An evil as bad as any time period, should we kill all the breaths and don't forget the children and take the virgin women for ourselves? Can this possibly be right or wise in any time period....and as far as Jewish wisdom and religious thought...this is the tip of the ice berg. Christianity was not a patch on an old garment.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Today the stakes are higher...more dying, the weapons more powerful. The United States nearly stands alone against terrorism. An evil as bad as any time period, should we kill all the breaths and don't forget the children and take the virgin women for ourselves? Can this possibly be right or wise in any time period....and as far as Jewish wisdom and religious thought...this is the tip of the ice berg. Christianity was not a patch on an old garment.

Jesus cautioned about doing that or putting new wine in old wineskins as a way of speaking to the issue of Old Covenant vs. New Covenant.

 

[Grailhunter]

Jesus cautioned about doing that or putting new wine in old wineskins as a way of speaking to the issue of Old Covenant vs. New Covenant.

All scriptures are inspired by God. People are alright with this until they run a crossed a scriptures that they do not like. Then they start coming up with excuses. What we do now is how we apply Christianity, what they did then was how they applied their religion. The 613 Laws of Moses, if you have not read them, you should. A lot of what they did was in their Laws. All of the Old and New Testament indicates that they cannot be changed. If you keep one you are obligated to keep all of them. The Old Testament has many lofty scriptures, but the bottom line is that the Old Testament is a witness to how they applied those Jewish wisdoms. None of this belongs in Christianity.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

All scriptures are inspired by God. People are alright with this until they run a crossed a scriptures that they do not like. Then they start coming up with excuses. What we do now is how we apply Christianity, what they did then was how they applied their religion. The 613 Laws of Moses, if you have not read them, you should. A lot of what they did was in their Laws. All of the Old and New Testament indicates that they cannot be changed. If you keep one you are obligated to keep all of them. The Old Testament has many lofty scriptures, but the bottom line is that the Old Testament is a witness to how they applied those Jewish wisdoms. None of this belongs in Christianity.

This is the age of grace and mercy but, eventually, the Millennial Kingdom will be ruled "with a rod of iron"--absolute adherence to the rule of the Law. Mankind is tested in this world of sin and death but God will wipe away every tear in the Eternal State which we will share with Him and the Lamb.

 

[CNKW3]

God is a God who justifies (or declares righteous) the ungodly...Romans 4:5. Our faith is accounted as righteousness. The doing or working of righteousness stems out of being declared righteous...for it is impossible for God to lie, and He calls those things which be not as though they are. Therefore the beginning of our righteousness is faith...not works. We then do good works because we are righteous by faith...and in this we do not become righteous by our works. The righteousness is by faith from beginning to end and all the way through...Romans 1:17, Colossians 2:6, Galatians 3:1-3. It is not of works...Ephesians 2:9 and context.

Salvation will most assuredly produce good works. But just as I am not going to obtain the blessing of being born again through giving money to the poor; but only by faith alone in Jesus Christ: and works will develop out of that faith: so I cannot obtain regeneration by doing a good work for God...this only comes about through faith in Jesus and what He did for me on the Cross. I am regenerated by this faith...and because of this regeneration I have the love of the Lord shed abroad in my heart (Romans 5:5); which love is not in word or in tongue only but in deed and in truth (1 John 3:17-18) and which love is the fulfilling of the law (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, Romans 8:4).

He was justified before he sacrificed Isaac; and circumcision is certainly not a requirement for salvation. And since he left Ur of the Chaldees before he was justified by faith alone, it is clear that this work didn't save him.

The devil's hold on people in this area has to do with their motivation, as to why they do good works. If they do them because of obligation, then they are working for wages...and being sinners, whose righteousnesses are as filthy rags...the only wages that they can earn is death. But if they do them because Christ has redeemed them by His blood, and they are thankful...then their righteousness is fine linen that comes out of being connected to the vine.

All I read here is that we are justified or made righteous by faith ALONE. Show me one passage that states we are saved by faith alone.

First, you say Abraham left UR “before he was justified by faith alone”. You are teaching us that Abraham was not saved until Gen 15:6? You got to be kidding me. We see him building altars, sacrificing and calling on the name of the Lord in chapters 12 and 13.
Melchisedek blessed Abraham in chapter 14, but oh he wasn’t saved by faith alone yet. Yea right!
How does Hebrews speak of Abraham.
Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, OBEYED; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Abraham was a man of faithful obedience.

Let’s look at some of your passages.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
First of all the works considered here are works of the old law. All of these early churches had elements that wanted to return to the Jews religion. Paul fought that in every church. Rome was no different.
This does not say anything about faith “alone”. He goes on to explain exactly who this declared righteous person is. Let’s read on...

6-8;Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
David is about to describe this man whom you say is declared righteous by faith alone.
Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Ahha. The man whom God declares righteous is the man whose sins he has forgiven. How does that happen under the new covenant of Jesus Christ which had its beginning on Pentecost?
By faith alone? No.
I challenge anyone to show me the verse or verses.
It is through baptism for the remission of sins. Mk 16:16 Acts 2:38, 3:19, 22:16. Rom 6:3,17,18.
So, God will declare a man righteous after his sins are forgiven and that does NOT happen at the point of “belief” in Christ apart from any action by the individual.

Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
There are two “faiths”. One is the gospel which is referred to as “the faith”. And the other is an individuals faith. So what Paul is saying is that the gospel or “the faith” brings about “faith” in the individual. An obedient Abraham type of faith.
For faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. This says nothing about righteousness through faith alone without any action of the individual.

Colossians 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
I don’t know what you are trying to say with this passage. It says they had received Christ but does not say how. Just 5 verses later he reiterates how their sins were removed through baptism. As we saw in Rom 4, this is when God declares a man righteous.

Galatians 3:1-3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
This passage talks about obedience to the truth, something that nobody can be saved without.
Also, these individuals were trying to return to the jewish law and Paul is reminding them that they had received the miraculous working of the Spirit through him who preaches the faith and not through the Jews. They had no power. He had all the power. Read verses 4 and 5 if you don’t believe me.

Eph 2:9. Saved by grace through faith,
but it does not say faith alone. How many times were the Ephesians baptized? Important question if you believe they were saved by faith alone. I can prove they weren’t.

Thanks for actually posting scripture. It’s something people seem to be allergic to. I’ll be waiting for all the passages that say we are saved by faith alone.

 

[Grailhunter]

All I read here is that we are justified or made righteous by faith ALONE. Show me one passage that states we are saved by faith alone.

First, you say Abraham left UR “before he was justified by faith alone”. You are teaching us that Abraham was not saved until Gen 15:6? You got to be kidding me. We see him building altars, sacrificing and calling on the name of the Lord in chapters 12 and 13.
Melchisedek blessed Abraham in chapter 14, but oh he wasn’t saved by faith alone yet. Yea right!
How does Hebrews speak of Abraham.
Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, OBEYED; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Abraham was a man of faithful obedience.

Let’s look at some of your passages.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
First of all the works considered here are works of the old law. All of these early churches had elements that wanted to return to the Jews religion. Paul fought that in every church. Rome was no different.
This does not say anything about faith “alone”. He goes on to explain exactly who this declared righteous person is. Let’s read on...

6-8;Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
David is about to describe this man whom you say is declared righteous by faith alone.
Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Ahha. The man whom God declares righteous is the man whose sins he has forgiven. How does that happen under the new covenant of Jesus Christ which had its beginning on Pentecost?
By faith alone? No.
I challenge anyone to show me the verse or verses.
It is through baptism for the remission of sins. Mk 16:16 Acts 2:38, 3:19, 22:16. Rom 6:3,17,18.
So, God will declare a man righteous after his sins are forgiven and that does NOT happen at the point of “belief” in Christ apart from any action by the individual.

Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
There are two “faiths”. One is the gospel which is referred to as “the faith”. And the other is an individuals faith. So what Paul is saying is that the gospel or “the faith” brings about “faith” in the individual. An obedient Abraham type of faith.
For faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. This says nothing about righteousness through faith alone without any action of the individual.

Colossians 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
I don’t know what you are trying to say with this passage. It says they had received Christ but does not say how. Just 5 verses later he reiterates how their sins were removed through baptism. As we saw in Rom 4, this is when God declares a man righteous.

Galatians 3:1-3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
This passage talks about obedience to the truth, something that nobody can be saved without.
Also, these individuals were trying to return to the jewish law and Paul is reminding them that they had received the miraculous working of the Spirit through him who preaches the faith and not through the Jews. They had no power. He had all the power. Read verses 4 and 5 if you don’t believe me.

Eph 2:9. Saved by grace through faith,
but it does not say faith alone. How many times were the Ephesians baptized? Important question if you believe they were saved by faith alone. I can prove they weren’t.

Thanks for actually posting scripture. It’s something people seem to be allergic to. I’ll be waiting for all the passages that say we are saved by faith alone.

Sounds like a challenge!

 

[Grailhunter]

All I read here is that we are justified or made righteous by faith ALONE. Show me one passage that states we are saved by faith alone.

First, you say Abraham left UR “before he was justified by faith alone”. You are teaching us that Abraham was not saved until Gen 15:6? You got to be kidding me. We see him building altars, sacrificing and calling on the name of the Lord in chapters 12 and 13.
Melchisedek blessed Abraham in chapter 14, but oh he wasn’t saved by faith alone yet. Yea right!
How does Hebrews speak of Abraham.
Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, OBEYED; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Abraham was a man of faithful obedience.

Let’s look at some of your passages.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
First of all the works considered here are works of the old law. All of these early churches had elements that wanted to return to the Jews religion. Paul fought that in every church. Rome was no different.
This does not say anything about faith “alone”. He goes on to explain exactly who this declared righteous person is. Let’s read on...

6-8;Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
David is about to describe this man whom you say is declared righteous by faith alone.
Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Ahha. The man whom God declares righteous is the man whose sins he has forgiven. How does that happen under the new covenant of Jesus Christ which had its beginning on Pentecost?
By faith alone? No.
I challenge anyone to show me the verse or verses.
It is through baptism for the remission of sins. Mk 16:16 Acts 2:38, 3:19, 22:16. Rom 6:3,17,18.
So, God will declare a man righteous after his sins are forgiven and that does NOT happen at the point of “belief” in Christ apart from any action by the individual.

Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
There are two “faiths”. One is the gospel which is referred to as “the faith”. And the other is an individuals faith. So what Paul is saying is that the gospel or “the faith” brings about “faith” in the individual. An obedient Abraham type of faith.
For faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. This says nothing about righteousness through faith alone without any action of the individual.

Colossians 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
I don’t know what you are trying to say with this passage. It says they had received Christ but does not say how. Just 5 verses later he reiterates how their sins were removed through baptism. As we saw in Rom 4, this is when God declares a man righteous.

Galatians 3:1-3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
This passage talks about obedience to the truth, something that nobody can be saved without.
Also, these individuals were trying to return to the jewish law and Paul is reminding them that they had received the miraculous working of the Spirit through him who preaches the faith and not through the Jews. They had no power. He had all the power. Read verses 4 and 5 if you don’t believe me.

Eph 2:9. Saved by grace through faith,
but it does not say faith alone. How many times were the Ephesians baptized? Important question if you believe they were saved by faith alone. I can prove they weren’t.

Thanks for actually posting scripture. It’s something people seem to be allergic to. I’ll be waiting for all the passages that say we are saved by faith alone.

·
John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."

· Rom. 3:22, "even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction."

· Rom. 3:26, "for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."

· Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."

· Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"

· Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"

· Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."

· Rom. 9:33, "just as it is written, “Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”

· Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."

· Rom. 10:9-10, "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

· Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."

· Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."

· Gal. 2:21, “I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”

· Gal.3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

· Gal. 3:8, "And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations shall be blessed in you."

· Gal. 3:14, "in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

· Gal. 3:22, "But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."

· Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."

· Eph. 1:13, "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise."

· Eph. 2:8, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God."

· Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."

· 1 Tim. 1:16, "And yet for this reason I found mercy, in order that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience, as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life."

 

[justbyfaith]

Show me one passage that states we are saved by faith alone.

Rom 4:5, But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6, Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

If this passage does not say that we are saved by faith alone, at the very least it teaches that we are saved by faith apart from works.

You are teaching us that Abraham was not saved until Gen 15:6? You got to be kidding me. We see him building altars, sacrificing and calling on the name of the Lord in chapters 12 and 13.

Religion doesn't save anyone.

Let’s look at some of your passages.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
First of all the works considered here are works of the old law.

The works considered here are works period.

Ahha. The man whom God declares righteous is the man whose sins he has forgiven. How does that happen under the new covenant of Jesus Christ which had its beginning on Pentecost?
By faith alone? No.
I challenge anyone to show me the verse or verses.

Rom 4:5, But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6, Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

If this passage does not say that we are saved by faith alone, it at the very least teaches that we are saved by faith apart from works.

Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
There are two “faiths”. One is the gospel which is referred to as “the faith”. And the other is an individuals faith. So what Paul is saying is that the gospel or “the faith” brings about “faith” in the individual. An obedient Abraham type of faith.

This scripture teaches that salvation (the righteousness of God) begins with faith, ends with faith, and is by faith all the way through.

Colossians 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
I don’t know what you are trying to say with this passage. It says they had received Christ but does not say how.

It says elsewhere how they received Christ:

Rom 5:1, Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2, By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Therefore, since we received Christ by faith, let us also continue our walk with Him by faith.

If you received Christ through water baptism, then you need to go swimming (underwater) for the rest of your life.

Galatians 3:1-3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
This passage talks about obedience to the truth, something that nobody can be saved without.

It teaches that we did not receive the Holy Spirit by our works but rather by the hearing of faith. Since we began in the Spirit (by faith), let us continue in the Spirit, and not seek to be perfected by the flesh (through doing good works in an attempt to maintain our salvation).

Obedience to the truth has to do with believing in Jesus Christ. This is the work of God, that you believe on Him whom He hath sent.

 

[justbyfaith]

To be clear, I am not against water baptism.

I will only say that water baptism is something that is only valid when there is faith in the operation of God.

 

[justbyfaith]

We could do this....This is truly the spirit of Christianity!....The wisdom of the Jews. I can hear Christ saying it now...
Should we start a movement to incorporate as much of this into Christianity as possible....come on lets see what the other think.

Mat 5:17, Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18, For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19, Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:20, For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

2Ti 3:15, And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures (of the Old Testament), which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

You present a dilemma to the believer for certain.

Is all scripture inspired of the Lord and profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness?

I believe it is.

Are we to implement those things in the OT that we find abhorrent in today's culture in America?

Probably not.

We'll save those things to be laws of the millennial kingdom, perhaps; realizing that the Lord has His reasons for placing them in the Old Testament, and that He is "the only wise God." (Jude 1:25 (kjv)).

I'm sure that when Jesus gets here He'll be able to hash it all out.

 

[CNKW3]

·
John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."

· Rom. 3:22, "even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction."

· Rom. 3:26, "for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."

· Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."

· Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"

· Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"

· Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."

· Rom. 9:33, "just as it is written, “Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”

· Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."

· Rom. 10:9-10, "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

· Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."

· Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."

· Gal. 2:21, “I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”

· Gal.3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

· Gal. 3:8, "And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations shall be blessed in you."

· Gal. 3:14, "in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

· Gal. 3:22, "But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."

· Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."

· Eph. 1:13, "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise."

· Eph. 2:8, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God."

· Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."

· 1 Tim. 1:16, "And yet for this reason I found mercy, in order that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience, as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life."

I read everyone of those passages and NOT ONCE did I ever see the word ALONE. I know you wouldn’t mind if I added words to your post that weren’t there. You wouldn’t care at all. I know everybody goes crazy and says.....”I didn’t say that”...”don’t put words into my mouth”.
But you? You must be different.
How do you think Paul feels when you add words THAT HE DID NOT SAY to his teaching? You think he would be as understanding as you are?

I also don’t see repentance? So, good. According to you I can be a homosexual, “accept Christ on my couch” and then remain a homosexual because all I have to do is believe.

Right before Jn 3:16 John said you must be born of WATER and the Spirit. I guess John was confused.

Rom 10. Specifically, in your poor translation, said confession with the mouth leads to salvation. That just did away with every other verse you posted, because we have found one other thing that is necessary for salvation besides JUST believing. So it can’t be by faith ALONE.

You are being dishonest with Gal 3. You posted vs 24 when the next 5 verses explains what he meant.
Galatians 3:24-29. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
There’s your verse. Why did you stop there? I hope you weren’t trying to be purposefully deceptive.
Let’s read on.

But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Paul says we are children of God by “faith” just like your other verses above. BUT this time he explains what he means.

For (the word gar which means because) as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Wait a minute. So, salvation by faith involves baptism? Don’t take it up with me I didn’t say it Paul did.
You want to be “in Christ”? Then you must be baptized.
You want to “put on Christ”? Then you must be baptized.
There again goes faith ALONE.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
All of this is tied together. Being an heir to the promise is received through faith culminating with baptism “into Christ”. I didn’t say it....Paul did.
I’ll keep looking for the passages that say we are saved by faith ALONE.

 

[GodsGrace]

We probably need to define our terms. "Faith" in the Greek is pistis while "belief" is from the same root, pisteuo. It is not mere intellectual assent or "to know" which would be ginosko in the Greek. To "know" was not thought to be same thing as to "believe" whereas, in English, the words are somewhat interchangeable and we might want to add modifiers to make our meaning clear. In the Book of Romans, even Paul adds a bit of a modifying explanation--"believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead" to make sure that everyone was on the same page when they said that they "believed".

Yes. I know what BELIEVE means in the Greek.
Unfortunately, not many Christians do...
(or they don't want to know).

 

[GodsGrace]

I Corinthians 1:30
"But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption"

I said when did JESUS say we would have righteousness in Him.

Your above verse if from Paul,,,,NOT JESUS.

Paul came up with this concept some years AFTER Jesus died.

I'd appreciate it if you could show me I'm wrong.
Really.

 

[Grailhunter]

I read everyone of those passages and NOT ONCE did I ever see the word ALONE. I know you wouldn’t mind if I added words to your post that weren’t there. You wouldn’t care at all. I know everybody goes crazy and says.....”I didn’t say that”...”don’t put words into my mouth”.
But you? You must be different.
How do you think Paul feels when you add words THAT HE DID NOT SAY to his teaching? You think he would be as understanding as you are?

I also don’t see repentance? So, good. According to you I can be a homosexual, “accept Christ on my couch” and then remain a homosexual because all I have to do is believe.

Right before Jn 3:16 John said you must be born of WATER and the Spirit. I guess John was confused.

Rom 10. Specifically, in your poor translation, said confession with the mouth leads to salvation. That just did away with every other verse you posted, because we have found one other thing that is necessary for salvation besides JUST believing. So it can’t be by faith ALONE.

You are being dishonest with Gal 3. You posted vs 24 when the next 5 verses explains what he meant.
Galatians 3:24-29. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
There’s your verse. Why did you stop there? I hope you weren’t trying to be purposefully deceptive.
Let’s read on.

Likewise you are not going to see a scripture list all the things that are required. Usually someone will want to add to the list.

But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Paul says we are children of God by “faith” just like your other verses above. BUT this time he explains what he means.

For (the word gar which means because) as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Wait a minute. So, salvation by faith involves baptism? Don’t take it up with me I didn’t say it Paul did.
You want to be “in Christ”? Then you must be baptized.
You want to “put on Christ”? Then you must be baptized.
There again goes faith ALONE.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
All of this is tied together. Being an heir to the promise is received through faith culminating with baptism “into Christ”. I didn’t say it....Paul did.
I’ll keep looking for the passages that say we are saved by faith ALONE.