Please explain this.

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Enoch111

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I am merely saying that I simply don't know how the sovereignty of God (which I very firmly believe in) intersects with the free will of man (which I very firmly believe in as well).
Well the simple and biblical solution is that the sovereignty of God INCLUDES the free will of man. God in His perfect sovereignty gave mankind free will, but also told man that bad/evil choices produce bad/evil consequences. I just don't understand whY anyone cannot see this clearly spelled out in Scripture.
 
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ScottA

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I keep hearing that the ones to whom Jesus said " I never knew you " are the unsaved because He never knew them.

No where in those verses is there any mention of being saved...
but it DOES speak to lawfullness.

I don't think I go off on tangents...

As to baptism,,,I know you're not reading every post of mine, but
I never said one MUST BE baptized to be saved.
What I've said is that Jesus said to be baptized, and so we should.

Where did Jesus speak of liquid water saving?
(not including John 3:5)
This is a tangent...we are not talking about those "who call Jesus Lord." But that is the explanation...He was not addressing the saved or the unsaved, but rather making the point that all who call Him Lord are not saved, only those who hear Him. Thus, as pertains to this topic, there are those here who have not heard Christ via the Holy Spirit, who are preaching another gospel, and against the gospel of Christ.

As for this topic specifically, Jesus did not speak of [liquid] water for His baptism, but rather He spoke of the Spirit. Some here are unclear on that and are under the impression that [liquid] water has the power to save. It does not. It is the Spirit that saves.
 

GodsGrace

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In everyone's defense it would take both hands to stay on topic in this thread.
Maybe ScottA is referring to born again?
I don't know to what he's referring.
I don't even know what liquid water is.
I thought all water was liquid.
Will wait for reply.

Sometimes threads take weird turns as persons speak...
 

GodsGrace

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This is a tangent...we are not talking about those "who call Jesus Lord." But that is the explanation...He was not addressing the saved or the unsaved, but rather making the point that all who call Him Lord are not saved, only those who hear Him. Thus, as pertains to this topic, there are those here who have not heard Christ via the Holy Spirit, who are preaching another gospel, and against the gospel of Christ.

As for this topic specifically, Jesus did not speak of [liquid] water for His baptism, but rather He spoke of the Spirit. Some here are unclear on that and are under the impression that [liquid] water has the power to save. It does not. It is the Spirit that saves.
Agreed on paragraph two.
As to paragraph one...
In Mathew 7:23 Jesus was making the point that just because we call His name...
Lord, Lord,
does not mean we're going to heaven...
but only those who practice being lawful
NOT those who practice lawlessness.

Jesus is very clear and it should be read simply.

Mathew 7:23
23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’


Jesus plainly states who it is that must depart from Him.
 

ScottA

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As to paragraph one...
In Mathew 7:23 Jesus was making the point that just because we call His name...
Lord, Lord,
does not mean we're going to heaven...
but only those who practice being lawful
NOT those who practice lawlessness.

Jesus is very clear and it should be read simply.

Mathew 7:23
23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’


Jesus plainly states who it is that must depart from Him.
That is true, but He first gave an overshadowing qualification to His comments and the scope of things, as pertaining to "all who call Me Lord." I would suggest, that if we consider that it is He who has fulfilled the law (and not men), that this was the reason for His reference to the law...simply meaning, that He is the Way.

The subject then is the Way, the issue is some who wrongfully call Him Lord, and the lacking point in those is that they have not attained the law through His righteousness.
 

GodsGrace

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That is true, but He first gave an overshadowing qualification to His comments and the scope of things, as pertaining to "all who call Me Lord." I would suggest, that if we consider that it is He who has fulfilled the law (and not men), that this was the reason for His reference to the law...simply meaning, that He is the Way.

The subject then is the Way, the issue is some who wrongfully call Him Lord, and the lacking point in those is that they have not attained the law through His righteousness.
I hate to bring this up...
but when did Jesus say that we were going to gain our righteousness through HIM?
All He did for over 3 years was to teach how WE are to behave and how WE are to do certain works/good deeds.

All He ever said was to believe in Him...and maybe only once or twice.
BELIEVE meant to trust Him and follow Him and His ways and be HIS disciples.

He said He is the way...to God.
If we DO as He said.

He said TO DO....
NOT that He would DO for us.
 
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Lady Crosstalk

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Well the simple and biblical solution is that the sovereignty of God INCLUDES the free will of man. God in His perfect sovereignty gave mankind free will, but also told man that bad/evil choices produce bad/evil consequences. I just don't understand whY anyone cannot see this clearly spelled out in Scripture.


Now try free will and prophecy. ;)
 
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Lady Crosstalk

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OK.
Yes, it's Mathew 13:20-21 OR Luke 8:13

If we take Matthews account, it's really the same.
Jesus said the man HEARS the word and RECEIVES IT WITH JOY.
But the receiving, or the joy, is only temporary (exactly like Luke) because
the person is afflicted, because he does not have a firm root, and he immediately falls away.

What did the person fall away from?
His belief,,,,which saved him temporarily.

(happily, the bible does not contradict itself)


We probably need to define our terms. "Faith" in the Greek is pistis while "belief" is from the same root, pisteuo. It is not mere intellectual assent or "to know" which would be ginosko in the Greek. To "know" was not thought to be same thing as to "believe" whereas, in English, the words are somewhat interchangeable and we might want to add modifiers to make our meaning clear. In the Book of Romans, even Paul adds a bit of a modifying explanation--"believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead" to make sure that everyone was on the same page when they said that they "believed".
 

justbyfaith

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The Apostle Paul really had nothing good to say about the Mosaic Law, and pretty much put a curse on anyone that looked to it for guidance.

Actually, see Romans 8:4, Romans 8:7, Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16.

Paul taught us that the law will be obeyed by us (the spirit of it, not the letter...see Romans 7:6)...that it will be written on the hearts and minds of new Covenant believers.

Romans 7:4 contains a strong argument against adherence to the law:

It needs to be compared with other scripture in order to give the entire picture. What this verse is really saying is that we are forgiven of past, present, and future sin(s); and therefore the law's relationship to us is that it no longer condemns us from the outside, as it is written on tablets of stone. But it does govern us from the inside, as written on fleshy tables of human hearts.

You want to be righteous? Then you’re going to have DO or WORK righteousness.

God is a God who justifies (or declares righteous) the ungodly...Romans 4:5. Our faith is accounted as righteousness. The doing or working of righteousness stems out of being declared righteous...for it is impossible for God to lie, and He calls those things which be not as though they are. Therefore the beginning of our righteousness is faith...not works. We then do good works because we are righteous by faith...and in this we do not become righteous by our works. The righteousness is by faith from beginning to end and all the way through...Romans 1:17, Colossians 2:6, Galatians 3:1-3. It is not of works...Ephesians 2:9 and context.

Do you want everlasting life? Then Jesus says you will need to LABOR or WORK for it.
This teaching of NO WORKS salvation is from the devil. He has had great success in deceiving the masses.

Salvation will most assuredly produce good works. But just as I am not going to obtain the blessing of being born again through giving money to the poor; but only by faith alone in Jesus Christ: and works will develop out of that faith: so I cannot obtain regeneration by doing a good work for God...this only comes about through faith in Jesus and what He did for me on the Cross. I am regenerated by this faith...and because of this regeneration I have the love of the Lord shed abroad in my heart (Romans 5:5); which love is not in word or in tongue only but in deed and in truth (1 John 3:17-18) and which love is the fulfilling of the law (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, Romans 8:4).

Was Abraham a man who did nothing? Or was he a faithful and obedient servant? Abraham worked his whole life being obedient to God.
Please tell me....which of the commands of God could Abraham have rejected and still been faithful? Did he have to leave UR? Could he have rejected circumcision? How about the sacrifice of Isaac?

He was justified before he sacrificed Isaac; and circumcision is certainly not a requirement for salvation. And since he left Ur of the Chaldees before he was justified by faith alone, it is clear that this work didn't save him.

He IS NOT teaching that you DON’t have to DO ANYTHING.
The devil has a hold on you and your understanding of WORKS.

The devil's hold on people in this area has to do with their motivation, as to why they do good works. If they do them because of obligation, then they are working for wages...and being sinners, whose righteousnesses are as filthy rags...the only wages that they can earn is death. But if they do them because Christ has redeemed them by His blood, and they are thankful...then their righteousness is fine linen that comes out of being connected to the vine. I realize that I have mixed metaphors.

Hi JBF,
Go back and read all my posts and tell me one where I said we are saved by works. I've NEVER said that and never will because it's not true.
Ephesians 2:8-9

You appear to believe, from my understanding of your posts, that we maintain our salvation by works. This to me, is the same thing as salvation by works.

Could you please explain to me what justification is?

It is the Lord declaring that a man is righteous. And since it is impossible for God to lie, it is to a certain extent making the same man righteous (see Romans 5:19, Titus 1:2, Hebrews 6:18).

Also, who ever said the Law could be kept perfectly?
The Israelites couldn't do it...why would WE be able to do this?

Of course, no one can keep the law perfectly. Yet it is what is required of anyone who would attempt to obtain righteousness/salvation/ entrance into the kingdom by virtue of their works.

faith without the work of God IS dead.

Faith is the work of God according to the scripture in question (John 6:28-29).

We will reap IF WE DO NOT GROW WEARY...
otherwise WE WILL NOT REAP.

This has to do with reaping a harvest of souls in evangelism...not our own personal salvation.

Those that did good deeds will be raised to a life of resurrection.
Those who did not do good deeds will be raised to a life of jdugement...which is damnation.

Think with me about John 5:29. Those who have done evil will be raised to a resurrection of damnation. Yet the Bible teaches us that all of us have done evil (Romans 3:23). So, are all raised to the resurrection of damnation?

AFTER they were saved,,,they were required to obey God.

This is false doctrine. It is not a requirement to obey the Lord after we are saved but a privilege. We do it because we want to, not because we have to. See Psalms 110:3.

We are now made heirs through Jesus and not by trying to maintain the 613 laws of Moses....

If we are attempting to obtain (or otherwise maintain) our salvation by works (whether continued or otherwise), then we are required to keep the whole law (Galatians 3:10, James 2:10, Matthew 5:48). This includes all 613 commandments.
 
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justbyfaith

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Faith is followed by obedience.

No argument there. However, I would say to you that it is not the obedience that saves. If we are not obedient, then we are deceiving ourselves to think that we are saved by faith. But from a theological/doctrinal perspective, salvation is not of works. Period. Ephesians 2:9 and context.

AND, it's really important to understand that when Paul is talking about these works...he means the 613 laws of Moses.

Paul is saying that works, period, are the issue. If you think that what you do (as righteous acts) is what saves you, then you are required to keep all 613 commandments.

We must continue in God's kindness in order to remain
grafted in...otherwise He will cut us off, just like He did to the unbelieving Jews.

This is speaking of the fact that we must abide in Him in order to maintain salvation. Now if we abide in Him, we will continue in His goodness. But we do not abide in Him through walking in goodness. We abide in Him through being connected to the vine; and this means relationship. You can do all kinds of good works; but if you do not have a relationship with Christ it will avail you nothing. The fruit on your branch will be dead, not flourishing.

How many types of faith are there?

Two that I can think of.

One must believe to be saved.
If one believes FOR A WHILE...
he is saved FOR A WHILE.

If someone believes on Him, they have everlasting life...this indicates a life that will never end. John 6:47. This refers to a heart faith and righteousness that is enduring to the end, Romans 10:10, Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 3:14, Matthew 10:22. The faith spoken of in Luke 8:13 is a shallow, lukewarm, or nominal faith; which amounts to a mental assent to the tenets of the gospel. Which can still be called faith...but it is a faith that exists only in the brain and has not entered into the heart so that it produces righteousness and perseverance.

In Mathew 7:23 Jesus was making the point that just because we call His name...
Lord, Lord,
does not mean we're going to heaven...
but only those who practice being lawful
NOT those who practice lawlessness.

Jesus is very clear and it should be read simply.

Mathew 7:23
23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’


Jesus plainly states who it is that must depart from Him.

Mat 7:23, And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Iniquity is deeper than lawlessness...it is the sin that exists at the very core level, in the heart. Jesus said to make the inside of the cup and platter clean so that the outside may also be clean.

but when did Jesus say that we were going to gain our righteousness through HIM?

I can't think of where Jesus said it directly off the top of my hat...but He said it indirectly through Paul when Paul wrote Galatians 5:22-23.

That jogged my memory...of course it is in John 15:1-8.
 
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Lady Crosstalk

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I hate to bring this up...
but when did Jesus say that we were going to gain our righteousness through HIM?
All He did for over 3 years was to teach how WE are to behave and how WE are to do certain works/good deeds.

All He ever said was to believe in Him...and maybe only once or twice.
BELIEVE meant to trust Him and follow Him and His ways and be HIS disciples.

He said He is the way...to God.
If we DO as He said.

He said TO DO....
NOT that He would DO for us.

He said that the Holy Spirit would lead us into all truth and that the truth would set us free. Jesus' Jewish hearers would have known that the prophet, Jeremiah (see Jeremiah 23:6) said that in the future days of Messiah, He would be called "The LORD is our Righteousness" (Yahweh Tsidqenu in Hebrew). Those Jews who recognized who Jesus was/is, understood that He would be the righteousness that the Law of Moses could not form in them.
 
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Grailhunter

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Actually, see Romans 8:4, Romans 8:7, Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16.


Paul taught us that the law will be obeyed by us (the spirit of it, not the letter...see Romans 7:6)...that it will be written on the hearts and minds of new Covenant believers.



It needs to be compared with other scripture in order to give the entire picture. What this verse is really saying is that we are forgiven of past, present, and future sin(s); and therefore the law's relationship to us is that it no longer condemns us from the outside, as it is written on tablets of stone. But it does govern us from the inside, as written on fleshy tables of human hearts.



God is a God who justifies (or declares righteous) the ungodly...Romans 4:5. Our faith is accounted as righteousness. The doing or working of righteousness stems out of being declared righteous...for it is impossible for God to lie, and He calls those things which be not as though they are. Therefore the beginning of our righteousness is faith...not works. We then do good works because we are righteous by faith...and in this we do not become righteous by our works. The righteousness is by faith from beginning to end and all the way through...Romans 1:17, Colossians 2:6, Galatians 3:1-3. It is not of works...Ephesians 2:9 and context.



Salvation will most assuredly produce good works. But just as I am not going to obtain the blessing of being born again through giving money to the poor; but only by faith alone in Jesus Christ: and works will develop out of that faith: so I cannot obtain regeneration by doing a good work for God...this only comes about through faith in Jesus and what He did for me on the Cross. I am regenerated by this faith...and because of this regeneration I have the love of the Lord shed abroad in my heart (Romans 5:5); which love is not in word or in tongue only but in deed and in truth (1 John 3:17-18) and which love is the fulfilling of the law (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, Romans 8:4).



He was justified before he sacrificed Isaac; and circumcision is certainly not a requirement for salvation. And since he left Ur of the Chaldees before he was justified by faith alone, it is clear that this work didn't save him.



The devil's hold on people in this area has to do with their motivation, as to why they do good works. If they do them because of obligation, then they are working for wages...and being sinners, whose righteousnesses are as filthy rags...the only wages that they can earn is death. But if they do them because Christ has redeemed them by His blood, and they are thankful...then their righteousness is fine linen that comes out of being connected to the vine.



You appear to believe, from my understanding of your posts, that we maintain our salvation by works. This to me, is the same thing as salvation by works.



It is the Lord declaring that a man is righteous. And since it is impossible for God to lie, it is to a certain extent making the same man righteous (see Romans 5:19, Titus 1:2, Hebrews 6:18).



Of course, no one can keep the law perfectly. Yet it is what is required of anyone who would attempt to obtain righteousness/salvation/ entrance into the kingdom by virtue of their works.



Faith is the work of God according to the scripture in question (John 6:28-29).



This has to do with reaping a harvest of souls in evangelism...not our own personal salvation.



Think with me about John 5:29. Those who have done evil will be raised to a resurrection of damnation. Yet the Bible teaches us that all of us have done evil (Romans 3:23). So, are all raised to the resurrection of damnation?



This is false doctrine. It is not a requirement to obey the Lord after we are saved but a privilege. We do it because we want to, not because we have to. See Psalms 110:3.



If we are attempting to obtain (or otherwise maintain) salvation by our works (whether continued or otherwise), then we are required to keep the whole law (Galatians 3:10, James 2:10, Matthew 5:48). This includes all 613 commandments.
Actually, see Romans 8:4, Romans 8:7, Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16.

Paul taught us that the law will be obeyed by us (the spirit of it, not the letter...see Romans 7:6)...that it will be written on the hearts and minds of new Covenant believers.



It needs to be compared with other scripture in order to give the entire picture. What this verse is really saying is that we are forgiven of past, present, and future sin(s); and therefore the law's relationship to us is that it no longer condemns us from the outside, as it is written on tablets of stone. But it does govern us from the inside, as written on fleshy tables of human hearts.



God is a God who justifies (or declares righteous) the ungodly...Romans 4:5. Our faith is accounted as righteousness. The doing or working of righteousness stems out of being declared righteous...for it is impossible for God to lie, and He calls those things which be not as though they are. Therefore the beginning of our righteousness is faith...not works. We then do good works because we are righteous by faith...and in this we do not become righteous by our works. The righteousness is by faith from beginning to end and all the way through...Romans 1:17, Colossians 2:6, Galatians 3:1-3. It is not of works...Ephesians 2:9 and context.



Salvation will most assuredly produce good works. But just as I am not going to obtain the blessing of being born again through giving money to the poor; but only by faith alone in Jesus Christ: and works will develop out of that faith: so I cannot obtain regeneration by doing a good work for God...this only comes about through faith in Jesus and what He did for me on the Cross. I am regenerated by this faith...and because of this regeneration I have the love of the Lord shed abroad in my heart (Romans 5:5); which love is not in word or in tongue only but in deed and in truth (1 John 3:17-18) and which love is the fulfilling of the law (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, Romans 8:4).



He was justified before he sacrificed Isaac; and circumcision is certainly not a requirement for salvation. And since he left Ur of the Chaldees before he was justified by faith alone, it is clear that this work didn't save him.



The devil's hold on people in this area has to do with their motivation, as to why they do good works. If they do them because of obligation, then they are working for wages...and being sinners, whose righteousnesses are as filthy rags...the only wages that they can earn is death. But if they do them because Christ has redeemed them by His blood, and they are thankful...then their righteousness is fine linen that comes out of being connected to the vine.



You appear to believe, from my understanding of your posts, that we maintain our salvation by works. This to me, is the same thing as salvation by works.



It is the Lord declaring that a man is righteous. And since it is impossible for God to lie, it is to a certain extent making the same man righteous (see Romans 5:19, Titus 1:2, Hebrews 6:18).



Of course, no one can keep the law perfectly. Yet it is what is required of anyone who would attempt to obtain righteousness/salvation/ entrance into the kingdom by virtue of their works.



Faith is the work of God according to the scripture in question (John 6:28-29).



This has to do with reaping a harvest of souls in evangelism...not our own personal salvation.



Think with me about John 5:29. Those who have done evil will be raised to a resurrection of damnation. Yet the Bible teaches us that all of us have done evil (Romans 3:23). So, are all raised to the resurrection of damnation?



This is false doctrine. It is not a requirement to obey the Lord after we are saved but a privilege. We do it because we want to, not because we have to. See Psalms 110:3.



If we are attempting to obtain (or otherwise maintain) salvation by our works (whether continued or otherwise), then we are required to keep the whole law (Galatians 3:10, James 2:10, Matthew 5:48). This includes all 613 commandments.


Again there is nothing wrong with you being a Jew. Paul was not thinking of any end around to include the laws in Christianity. Not symbolically, not metaphorically, and not spiritually. The wisdom of the Old Testament was not good enough...the Laws do not pertain....the customs do not pertain....Paul could not say enough bad things about the Law.
 

Enoch111

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Now try free will and prophecy.
That too is quite simple. God sees the end from the beginning. There are some things which He foreordains and predetermines, e.g. the crucifixion of Christ. There are other things which he allows to happen. And then there are God's future judgments described in the Bible to warn men and drive them to the Savior. After that we see God's eternal plans and purposes for the Church and for redeemed and restored Israel.

So Christians are highly privileged to know what God has in mind for the future, and so that they can warn people about the wrath to come.
 
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Enoch111

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If you say so. ;) Where in Scripture is what you have said, spelled out?
Now you are asking for a dissertation instead a summation. :)
Rest assured everything stated is fully backed up with Scripture (as you would also discover).
 

justbyfaith

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Again there is nothing wrong with you being a Jew. Paul was not thinking of any end around to include the laws in Christianity. Not symbolically, not metaphorically, and not spiritually. The wisdom of the Old Testament was not good enough...the Laws do not pertain....the customs do not pertain....Paul could not say enough bad things about the Law.
Again, see Romans 5:5; Romans 8:4, Romans 8:7, Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14; Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16.

And I will add from John: 1 John 5:3 and 2 John 1:6.

But the first four scriptures (after the first one) being definitely from Paul, the second two being very possibly from him, and the last two being from a different apostle (John).

However I would point out that the Holy Spirit is the author of all of these scriptures.

Thus we can compare things coming from completely different human authors, and come to a solid biblical conclusion, based on the hermeneutical method that is given to us in 1 Corinthians 2:13.
 
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Grailhunter

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Again, see Romans 5:5; Romans 8:4, Romans 8:7, Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14; Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16.

And I will add from John: 1 John 5:3 and 2 John 1:6.

But the first four scriptures (after the first one) being definitely from Paul, the second two being very possibly from him, and the last two being from a different apostle (John).

However I would point out that the Holy Spirit is the author of all of these scriptures.

Thus we can compare things coming from completely different human authors, and come to a solid biblical conclusion, based on the hermeneutical method that is given to us in 1 Corinthians 2:13.

Hey we could do this....lets start looking to the Old Covenant for wisdom and Laws.....
Lev. 15:19-30 The rape of a virgin female that is engaged to another man
If there is a girl who is a virgin engaged to a man, and another man finds her in the city and lies with her, then you shall bring them both out to the gate of the city and you shall stone them to death; the girl, because she did not cry out in the city, and the man, because he has violated his neighbor’s wife. Thus you shall purge the evil from among you. I think this would be the kind of Wisdom and Law that Christ
would back us on...what do say?
 

justbyfaith

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Hey we could do this....lets start looking to the Old Covenant for wisdom and Laws.....
Lev. 15:19-30 The rape of a virgin female that is engaged to another man
If there is a girl who is a virgin engaged to a man, and another man finds her in the city and lies with her, then you shall bring them both out to the gate of the city and you shall stone them to death; the girl, because she did not cry out in the city, and the man, because he has violated his neighbor’s wife. Thus you shall purge the evil from among you. I think this would be the kind of Wisdom and Law that Christ
would back us on...what do say?
He that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone.
 
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Grailhunter

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He that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone.

This is classic Hebrew...
Numbers 31
17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

18 But all the women-children, that have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

We could do this....This is truly the spirit of Christianity!....The wisdom of the Jews. I can hear Christ saying it now...
Should we start a movement to incorporate as much of this into Christianity as possible....come on lets see what the other think.
 
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