Please explain this.

[GodsGrace]

No more thought than what I had already put into it in my normal time in meditating on the scriptures. I look forward to your answer!



I look forward to your answers.



Consider that a living faith in Jesus will produce the fruit of repentance.

Tit 3:5, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Tit 3:6, Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

This "washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost" amounts to making the person into a new creature in Christ...the old has gone; behold, all things are become new! (2 Corinthians 5:17). It is a cleansing of the inside of the cup and platter in order that the outside may also become clean.

Often this involves making a 180-degree turn as a decision made by the sinner; but sometimes the turnaround can be defined not as "repentance" because it is a work of the Holy Spirit wherein the sinner is simply no longer attracted to the old things...he realizes that those things don't satisfy. He has the living water and does not need to attempt to quench his thirst with the toilet water that this world has to offer. See John 6:35, John 4:13-14, John 7:37-39.



I suggest really reading these scriptures and understanding them, in light of the concept that real obedience stems out of love rather than obligation.

Will reply only to the last....regarding the verses I posted.
John 14:21
John 15:10
1 John 5:3

John 14:21 Jesus Himself says that if we love Him, we will keep His commandments.
This means that there are commandments to keep...
IF we love Him.
So, if there are no works, wouldn't you agree that there is a problem with one's love for Christ?


John 15:10 Jesus said that IF we keep His commandments we will ABIDE in His love. He placed keeping His commandments BEFORE abiding in His love.
IOW, we abide in Him....we keep His commandments...we continue to abide in Him....we keep His commandments...and so forth. The obeying draws the abiding.

1 John 5:3 Again, it speaks of love. IF we love God, we will keep His commandments, and His commandments are not burdensome. Why?
Because Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to give us the help necessary.


So we learn that if we love Jesus, we will keep His commandments.
Commandments are "works" that we are to do,,,every word out of Jesus' mouth is a command.

If we do not work...it means we have no love for Jesus.
Our works are only valid AFTER salvation,,,when we are required to obey God.

It's useless to keep saying that we do them because we love,,,not because we have to.

When God opens His mouth --- it's a command.
NOT a request.

 

[GodsGrace]

You do not know the least little bit about my walk with the Lord Jesus so I will thank you to keep your accusations to yourself.

No, actually, he said, "my Lord and my God". In the first century, the word, "Lord" could have referred to an earthly master. You are apparently trying to make a case for "Lordship Salvation" which has a number of un-Biblical aspects. Too long to go into here but there are plenty of articles on the web that make the case against the theology of Lordship Salvation--which teaches, as a major tenet, that one cannot be saved unless one DOES something. Dr. Andy Wood of Sugar Land Baptist Church has this to say: "The moment a lost person exercises trust in Christ is the moment he is saved. Lewis Sperry Chafer, Theologian and founder of Dallas Theological Seminary, entitled this biblical phenomenon: 'Belief: God's One Condition of Salvation'." Why has God made salvation so simple? God has designed salvation as a free gift (Rom 4:4-5). If there were some human action to be performed beyond belief, then salvation becomes something that we do rather than what God does. Such a human insertion reduces salvation's free gift status by making it something we earn."

Lordship Salvation teaches that one must cease from all sin or be willing to do so as the means of securing salvation. Jesus IS my Savior and Lord, but when I came to Him, I didn't even know what that meant.

I don't know what Lordship Salvation is.
I learned my theology from two different churches many years ago and the learning continues.
However, it seems to sound right. Jesus is not only our Savior, He is also our Lord.
Lord means master,,,,just as you've stated; except He is our heavenly master...a good master, that speaks for our good and not to work us to death, but allows us to do His work here on earth since HE is up in heaven.

The accusation was responding to what you said. Just like YOU said I'm practicing Lordship salvation...which you use in a derogatory manner.
It gets tiring of hearing we're not supposed to do anything to help God along after salvation.

Well, why not? Is the only reason one gets saved and comes to God to go to heaven? Are you not willing to do anything here to help God? Oh. Right. It's a sin to help God.

And maybe you are doing your works.
So then WHY are you afraid to say so.
Are we supposed to obey God or not?
What's the bottom line here?

Are you a monergist or a synergist?
I guess we should discuss this instead of works.

 

[Nancy]

Will reply only to the last....regarding the verses I posted.
John 14:21
John 15:10
1 John 5:3

John 14:21 Jesus Himself says that if we love Him, we will keep His commandments.
This means that there are commandments to keep...
IF we love Him.
So, if there are no works, wouldn't you agree that there is a problem with one's love for Christ?


John 15:10 Jesus said that IF we keep His commandments we will ABIDE in His love. He placed keeping His commandments BEFORE abiding in His love.
IOW, we abide in Him....we keep His commandments...we continue to abide in Him....we keep His commandments...and so forth. The obeying draws the abiding.

1 John 5:3 Again, it speaks of love. IF we love God, we will keep His commandments, and His commandments are not burdensome. Why?
Because Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to give us the help necessary.


So we learn that if we love Jesus, we will keep His commandments.
Commandments are "works" that we are to do,,,every word out of Jesus' mouth is a command.

If we do not work...it means we have no love for Jesus.
Our works are only valid AFTER salvation,,,when we are required to obey God.

It's useless to keep saying that we do them because we love,,,not because we have to.

When God opens His mouth --- it's a command.
NOT a request.

It seems to me that true good works stem from our changed man...I was a selfish, self-serving person for much of my life...and thought that was just fine because I worked so hard and for so long that, I DESERVE IT! HA! Well, after Christ changed me, my heart did a flip and I found that I WANTED to serve and obey Him through works...NEVER to seek a crown, for sure! But...the change is quite evident in me and, if one were to know me when "of the world"...you would probably have said something like "lost cause". Ha...Thank yo Jesus that your grace ran much deeper than my sin ♥

 

[GodsGrace]

It seems to me that true good works stem from our changed man...I was a selfish, self-serving person for much of my life...and thought that was just fine because I worked so hard and for so long that, I DESERVE IT! HA! Well, after Christ changed me, my heart did a flip and I found that I WANTED to serve and obey Him through works...NEVER to seek a crown, for sure! But...the change is quite evident in me and, if one were to know me when "of the world"...you would probably have said something like "lost cause". Ha...Thank yo Jesus that your grace ran much deeper than my sin ♥

Slaves work because they have to.
Friends work because they want to.

We are friends of Christ.
Thus we desire to do good things for humanity...it could be just caring well for our own family.

But if we don't desire to do anything...what does it say of us?
And I still don't understand why some want to say that works are not necessary or required. That's all Jesus spoke about!

 

[Nancy]

Slaves work because they have to.
Friends work because they want to.

We are friends of Christ.
Thus we desire to do good things for humanity...it could be just caring well for our own family.

But if we don't desire to do anything...what does it say of us?
And I still don't understand why some want to say that works are not necessary or required. That's all Jesus spoke about!

So many "Christians" look for loopholes so they do not HAVE to give of themselves. I know way too many of them. I know them as I WAS them at one time years ago. Good works are EVIDENCE of a changed life! If we grumble while helping a brother out, or anyone for that matter, it is a work of the flesh and will burn up. If we do it willingly and cheerfully, it is of Gods Spirit. So, I would say if one does not have "good works" of the Spirit...it is dung to God! Amen.

 

[GodsGrace]

So many "Christians" look for loopholes so they do not HAVE to give of themselves. I know way too many of them. I know them as I WAS them at one time years ago. Good works are EVIDENCE of a changed life! If we grumble while helping a brother out, or anyone for that matter, it is a work of the flesh and will burn up. If we do it willingly and cheerfully, it is of Gods Spirit. So, I would say if one does not have "good works" of the Spirit...it is dung to God! Amen.

Yeah. You know that verse I like:

Colossians 3:23
23Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men,

If we do what we do for man, we never seem to have enough strength...
when we do it for God we seem to have more strength.

 

[Nancy]

Yeah. You know that verse I like:

Colossians 3:23
23Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men,

If we do what we do for man, we never seem to have enough strength...
when we do it for God we seem to have more strength.

Amen and well put, it is true! His strength is endless and He is our ROCK Amen!

 

[Helen]

@"ByGrace" I hope all is good with you?

Almost.. Thank you.

Not quite back to full strength yet. Little by little.

 

[ScottA]

No. What I said is not being properly represented by you.
I ACCEPT ALL OF THE BIBLE.
I refuse no one.

But this is an important discussion.
JESUS never said that we would be righteous through HIM.
This is something that came out later after Paul went off into the desert for 3 years.

Jesus always said that we are to do what God wants us to do...we could call this good works or deeds.

These days everyone seems to be against doing good works because of this concept of being righteous through Jesus.

When God looks at us, He sees His Son. I'm not denying this...
However to carry this to the extreme that says we are not required to do anything because we already have our righteousness in Christ is wrong.

And the reason it's wrong is because Jesus never said this but He did say that we are to do good works. THIS has also been repeated by other writers,,,,why is it not accepted by many? Because we want an easy Christianity and Jesus made it a bit difficult.
Mathew 5:20
He said our righteousness must SURPASS that of the scribes...
NOT that HE would be our righteousness.

The misunderstanding here, is not taking to heart that of ourselves we "can do nothing." "Lest anyone should boast."

So if you want to say, "Anyone who has Christ has to do good works", fine. Because they do not do it of themselves. But that is the point of those who are against saying "they" have to do good works. They simply know the whole truth, is that it is not us, but Christ in us who does the good works. Which we are privileged to partake in, not because the works are in us to do, but because He is in us.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

And I still don't understand why some want to say that works are not necessary or required. That's all Jesus spoke about!

Good deeds are never "required" for salvation nor, surprisingly, sanctification. We WANT to do them because hearts that belong to Him are filled by the Holy Spirit with love and compassion (if not, then we need to pray for a greater infilling). If you look at the rationale for the handing out of Crowns at the Bema Seat of Christ--not one of them is given for "good deeds". They are all laurels given for the believer's submission to the refining fire of the Holy Spirit. Under the Old Covenant, Abraham did not have any conditions required of him (God put him to sleep during the covenant-making). Abraham believed God and had faith that God would do all that He said. God counted it as righteousness. Under the New Covenant, we have no requirements either--other than believing God and having faith that our Savior will do all that He said He will.

As the Christian faith moved into Gentile pagan areas, one of the biggest impediments to faith was the customary pagan thinking that we must do things to impress God. But Isaiah's insistence that "all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags" was helpful in convincing them that WE CAN DO NOTHING to "help" Him. As soon as we start down the "good deeds" path, we are in danger of taking some kind of credit for ourselves. When I survey churches today, I see that pridefulness as the most destructive force in them. When God wants us to do something, He will put someone who is needy or a task that needs doing, in our path.

Grace is just grace, and it is an ongoing guiding presence in our lives, as the Spirit of Grace and Supplication (see Zechariah 10) moves and shapes our hearts.

 

[Grailhunter]

The misunderstanding here, is not taking to heart that of ourselves we "can do nothing." "Lest anyone should boast."

So if you want to say, "Anyone who has Christ has to do good works", fine. Because they to not do it of themselves. But that is the point of those who are against saying "they" have to do good works. They simply know the whole truth, is that it is not us, but Christ in us who does the good works. Which we are privileged to partake in, not because the works are in us to do, but because He is in us.

And the Puppet Master speaks. No good you do is a merit to you because you are a puppet. Funny that in the Old Testament generally when God wanted something done...He assigned champions.

 

[ScottA]

And the Puppet Master speaks. No good you do is a merit to you because you are a puppet. Funny that in the Old Testament generally when God wanted something done...He assigned champions.

Go ahead...you criticize against those in Christ, you criticize Christ, for which you will answer to Him.

Incidentally...Jesus did not "champion" Himself, but rather the Father. Likewise, we do not "champion" ourselves, but give glory to God.

 

[Grailhunter]

Go ahead...you criticize against those in Christ, you criticize Christ, for which you will answer to Him.

Incidentally...Jesus did not "champion" Himself, but rather the Father. Likewise, we do not "champion" ourselves, but give glory to God.

 

[ScottA]

View attachment 6692

Quotable "Christian" hypocrisy.

 

[GodsGrace]

The misunderstanding here, is not taking to heart that of ourselves we "can do nothing." "Lest anyone should boast."

So if you want to say, "Anyone who has Christ has to do good works", fine. Because they do not do it of themselves. But that is the point of those who are against saying "they" have to do good works. They simply know the whole truth, is that it is not us, but Christ in us who does the good works. Which we are privileged to partake in, not because the works are in us to do, but because He is in us.

S,
I believe that if you check all my posts you'll find that I've NEVER said that we do anything of ourselves. We do what we do because we have the help of the Holy Spirit which Jesus sent to us when He ascended.

Here's what bothers me...
The following are my statements:

1. We must obey God.
2. We do God's works here on earth...whatever they may be.

Blasphemy!
Heresy!


How could anyone that calls themselves a Christian ARGUE with that?

 

[ScottA]

S,
I believe that if you check all my posts you'll find that I've NEVER said that we do anything of ourselves. We do what we do because we have the help of the Holy Spirit which Jesus sent to us when He ascended.

Here's what bothers me...
The following are my statements:

1. We must obey God.
2. We do God's works here on earth...whatever they may be.

Blasphemy!
Heresy!


How could anyone that calls themselves a Christian ARGUE with that?

Because you are giving the right answer to the wrong question...which makes it the wrong answer to the topic question.

The topic is not not "obeying God by doing good works." The topic is rather, (paraphrased) "Is works required for one to be saved?"

So, what is your answer to that question: Are works required for one to be saved? Yes, or No?

 

[Episkopos]

Are works required for one to be saved? Yes, or No?

I'll cut into the dance.

There is no cookie cutter answer to that question. It depends what level of salvation one is speaking of.

For a saint...no human works are possible to attain to Christ. It is Christ in us.


For the saved of the nations in the next age who are judged for their HUMAN works in this life....YES. Good works are required and are the very basis for admittance into the future kingdom of God....but as guests of the Lamb...not the Bride. These come from the highways and byways from every nation and tongue and are both good and bad. BUT they loved their neighbour. The fulfilled the royal law.

So the believer will be judged by the holiness standard...loving both God AND people.

But for the basic skin of your teeth salvation of the righteous.....the royal law is to love others as yourself. The righteous are scarcely saved after all.

OK I know that is too biblical to swallow for most...

 

[marks]

For a saint...no human works are possible to attain to Christ.

Very true. All who are in Christ are saints.

And none through works, only through faith.

Much love!

 

[GodsGrace]

Good deeds are never "required" for salvation nor, surprisingly, sanctification. We WANT to do them because hearts that belong to Him are filled by the Holy Spirit with love and compassion (if not, then we need to pray for a greater infilling).

Hi Lady C,
Good deeds are useless for salvation.
God wants our heart.
For sanctification...they ARE necessary. I agree that we WANT to do the best we can for ourselves, our family and others.

But to say they are not necessary for sanctification shows that a person does not have a proper understanding of what sanctification is.

Justification is a moment and makes a person just as if they never sinned....a definition one of my pastors liked a lot. So at that moment, we become friends with God and are saved or born again in the spirit.

Sanctification is a two-way street. It lasts an entire lifetime and is a cooperative effort between God and man. You want God to do everything?!

Remember that knowing what to do and not doing it is also sin.
James 4:17

Sanctification works on our sin nature instead of taking sins away.
This does not take one moment but a lifetime. Our nature is cleansed
and is restored as mush as possible to the way God meant it to be.
Jesus told the disciples to wait in Jerusalem for empowerment of the Holy Spirit. We also receive this empowerment through sanctification (of the heart, we can say).

Hebrews 5:8-9
8Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.
9And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,

Jesus became salvation to those who obey Him.
It's not right to say we obey because we want to.
We do want to...but we also have to.

If you look at the rationale for the handing out of Crowns at the Bema Seat of Christ--not one of them is given for "good deeds". They are all laurels given for the believer's submission to the refining fire of the Holy Spirit. Under the Old Covenant, Abraham did not have any conditions required of him (God put him to sleep during the covenant-making). Abraham believed God and had faith that God would do all that He said. God counted it as righteousness. Under the New Covenant, we have no requirements either--other than believing God and having faith that our Savior will do all that He said He will.

You are misrepresenting the New Covenant.
The Abrahamic Covenant was UNILATERAL. This is correct.

However, it's not correct that God required nothing of Abraham.
God required that he leave his home of Harran.
God required that he lead a people.
God required that he sacrifice his son. (which didn't happen)

Abraham OBEYED God from the very beginning in
Genesis 12:1 when he left his home.

Verse 4 states that Abram went forth as the Lord had spoken to him.
God has always demanded obedience. Blessings to the nations that bless Abraham and curses to those that do not.

As to the New Covenant, I'll only say that you have to be IN IT.
And the MORAL LAW has NOT been abolished.
Can you tell me what the difference is between the Abrahamic and the New?

Faith only was NEVER believed by the early church.

As the Christian faith moved into Gentile pagan areas, one of the biggest impediments to faith was the customary pagan thinking that we must do things to impress God. But Isaiah's insistence that "all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags" was helpful in convincing them that WE CAN DO NOTHING to "help" Him. As soon as we start down the "good deeds" path, we are in danger of taking some kind of credit for ourselves. When I survey churches today, I see that pridefulness as the most destructive force in them. When God wants us to do something, He will put someone who is needy or a task that needs doing, in our path.

Grace is just grace, and it is an ongoing guiding presence in our lives, as the Spirit of Grace and Supplication (see Zechariah 10) moves and shapes our hearts.

The more grace you need,,,the more you get.
A Christian is not prideful of what he does.
If so...he is committing the sin of pride; a sin at the base of all the others.

Jesus did nothing but speak of what we are TO DO.
If you check, you'll find that he only spoke of salvation a few times.

James 2:26 Both the body AND THE SPIRIT are dead without works.

And as to the gifts as the Bema Seat:
John 5:28-29
We will be judged by our deeds.

 

[Nancy]

Good deeds are never "required" for salvation nor, surprisingly, sanctification. We WANT to do them because hearts that belong to Him are filled by the Holy Spirit with love and compassion (if not, then we need to pray for a greater infilling). If you look at the rationale for the handing out of Crowns at the Bema Seat of Christ--not one of them is given for "good deeds". They are all laurels given for the believer's submission to the refining fire of the Holy Spirit. Under the Old Covenant, Abraham did not have any conditions required of him (God put him to sleep during the covenant-making). Abraham believed God and had faith that God would do all that He said. God counted it as righteousness. Under the New Covenant, we have no requirements either--other than believing God and having faith that our Savior will do all that He said He will.

As the Christian faith moved into Gentile pagan areas, one of the biggest impediments to faith was the customary pagan thinking that we must do things to impress God. But Isaiah's insistence that "all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags" was helpful in convincing them that WE CAN DO NOTHING to "help" Him. As soon as we start down the "good deeds" path, we are in danger of taking some kind of credit for ourselves. When I survey churches today, I see that pridefulness as the most destructive force in them. When God wants us to do something, He will put someone who is needy or a task that needs doing, in our path.

Grace is just grace, and it is an ongoing guiding presence in our lives, as the Spirit of Grace and Supplication (see Zechariah 10) moves and shapes our hearts.

"When God wants us to do something, He will put someone who is needy or a task that needs doing, in our path." AMEN!
"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:10 We don't have to go out looking for "works" We literally walk right into them. ♥