Please explain this.

[JohnPaul]

I would say that it is a spiritual illness. Jesus seemed to note only two categories of illness--spiritual and physical. There are an enormous number of gay men who admit to suffering sexual abuse as children and pre-adolescent boys. The same is apparently true of lesbians.

That would be classified as a mental illness.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

I agree. He was not known for his cheerfulness and probably had some kind of mental or emotional problems.

I just don't understand why we look to men of the 1500's for information instead of those that came immediately after Jesus.

I like the men of old!
Up till about 325AD...and not beyond.
Have you ever read the Church Fathers?
There's a 10 volume set I'd love to have, but I can't
get it in English here.

I've read some--Irenaeus in particular. But there is a fair bit of controversy about their writings too. Origen is particularly criticized. Probably the fact that he came from Alexandria (where there was a strong influence of gnosticism) is at the base of a lot of it. Even Augustine undoubtedly made some errors based on the fact that he didn't read Greek and that he used an inferior Latin text and also because he was a pagan for many years before his conversion. It is the Holy Spirit who leads to truth and it is my opinion that NO ONE but He has ALL the truth, or ever will have until we go to heaven where there will be nothing but truth ever spoken.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

That would be classified as a mental illness.

I suppose that you could look at it that way but just giving someone a pill to swallow will never take away the results of the abuse that they suffered.

 

[amadeus]

If you are truly hungry and thirsty for righteousness, you will switch to the kjv as soon as you realize that there are things missing in other translations and that this means you will be spiritually malnourished in the reading of them.

I do use the KJV along with a Luther and Reina Valera Revisada, but this does not mean God could not get His message across by whatever means was available to a really hungry and thirsty person. He once used a donkey to communicate His message so He is certainly not strapped for ways to accomplish His purpose.

 

[amadeus]

It was the general practice in those days for the pastors to read long passages of the holy scriptures to the congregants every time the church doors were opened, in obedience to 1 Timothy 4:13.

My point exactly! God works using whatever is available... including in your example literate men to read to illiterate people.

 

[JohnPaul]

I suppose that you could look at it that way but just giving someone a pill to swallow will never take away the results of the abuse that they suffered.

Yes I know, I feel for them, I’m not suggesting popping pills, but counseling.

Would there even be counseling available for homosexuals today? Possibly only in a church.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Jesus applied it across the board in Luke 14:33 (kjv).

Luk 14:33, So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

I'm certain that now you will go to another translation, heaping up for yourself a teacher in the translator of it, to tell you what your itching ears want to hear...

You malign people you don't even know--not very Christlike of you. By the way, it is said even more plainly in the NLT--"So you cannot become my disciples without giving up everything you own." That verse was the basis of the early Church holding everything in common. Didn't last long because, people being people, some took advantage. That is why Paul said, "Those who wont work, won't eat." How do you know that I haven't given up everything? Have you?

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

You're learning about John Calvin now?
If anyone ever denies what @Lady Crosstalk just posted,,,and they might,
the fact that cannot be disputed is that Calvin could have saved Servetus by presenting some documents to the court, instead he withheld it purposefully.

I say this because there's some doubt as to how responsible he was for the death of Servetus....no matter how much responsibility one wants to assign to Calvin,,,he WAS responsible for the man's death...and many others.

How to trust someone like him?

We are told that we will know a false teacher by his fruit.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Yes I know, I feel for them, I’m not suggesting popping pills, but counseling.

Would there even be counseling available for homosexuals today? Possibly only in a church.

There are ministries dedicated to that but, it is now illegal in California for those ministries to operate and there are other states that are very "progressive/liberal" where legislation like California's is currently working its way through the legislatures.

 

[JohnPaul]

There are ministries dedicated to that but, it is now illegal in California for those ministries to operate and there are other states that are very "progressive/liberal" where legislation like California's is currently working its way through the legislatures.

I figured that.

 

[atpollard]

I’ve heard there are Calvinists, people who follow his teachings.

AAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!

Google “Calvinism Wikipedia”. It is hardly the best source of information, but it is at least less biased and more truthful than the anti-Calvinist crap you are are being fed here.

Calvinists follow “Reformed Theology” as defined at the Synod of Dort. We do not follow the teachings of Calvin, it was the Lutheran Church that first named Reformed Theology “Calvinism” as an insult that they were following teaching of a man rather than God.

Pick a point of “Calvinism” and I will be happy to compare the Bible Scripture supporting my position to the scripture the anti-Calvinists present opposing it.

PS. If being a murderer (which Calvin was not, but even if he was) disqualified ones writings, then we need to remove the writings of Moses (the first 5 books of the OT), David (the Psalms) and Paul (most of the NT) from the Bible ... they were all murderers.

 

[Grailhunter]

Don't let atpollard fool ya @JohnPaul. But he does have a good suggestion...look it up. Look it up and find what they believe god has predestined for man. In their religion judgement of a man occurs before he is born. Look it up and see if they believe those that are going to hell had a choice or was predestined by God. Look up the fact that the internet describe them as puppets on strings. Look it up and find out why you do not see female Calvinists on this site. Look it up and see what they call the Elect. Check with your local law enforcement for the number of times they have had to rescue women and children from these Calvinist families. Yes JohnPaul.....take a good look. It is your best bet that you believe neither one of us....Look it up for yourself!

 

[justbyfaith]

You malign people you don't even know--not very Christlike of you.

My statement was not to anyone in particular...just a general statement concerning the real reason why people reject the kjv for other translations.

 

[justbyfaith]

There are ministries dedicated to that but, it is now illegal in California for those ministries to operate and there are other states that are very "progressive/liberal" where legislation like California's is currently working its way through the legislatures.

No, it is not illegal in California. From what I heard, that bill was not passed.

It was the same bill that would have prohibited us from using the Bible to counsel homosexuals and would have amounted to a ban on the Bible in the long run according to the language used.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

My statement was not to anyone in particular...just a general statement concerning the real reason why people reject the kjv for other translations.

You addressed it to me in your post, and this is what you said: "I'm certain that now you will go to another translation, heaping up for yourself a teacher in the translator of it, to tell you what your itching ears want to hear..." I repeat, maligning those you don't even know (you don't know ANYTHING about me) is NOT very Christlike. I notice that you have ignored my questions and that I pointed out that the NLT actually supported your point better than the KJV did.

 

[bbyrd009]

Which only proves my point.

it was the doctrine of entire sanctification that started the fire jbf, surely. Not sure which point you imagine was proven, sorry. I know the doctrine sounds really good at first read, but it is satanic crap bro, like every doctrine of men?

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

No, it is not illegal in California. From what I heard, that bill was not passed.

It was the same bill that would have prohibited us from using the Bible to counsel homosexuals and would have amounted to a ban on the Bible in the long run according to the language used.

Good to hear that it didn't pass. Wonder what happened? It was said that it was a sure thing since the California legislature is dominated by "progressive/liberals".

 

[atpollard]

Don't let atpollard fool ya @JohnPaul. But he does have a good suggestion...look it up. Look it up and find what they believe god has predestined for man. In their religion judgement of a man occurs before he is born. Look it up and see if they believe those that are going to hell had a choice or was predestined by God. Look up the fact that the internet describe them as puppets on strings. Look it up and find out why you do not see female Calvinists on this site. Look it up and see what they call the Elect. Check with your local law enforcement for the number of times they have had to rescue women and children from these Calvinist families. Yes JohnPaul.....take a good look. It is your best bet that you believe neither one of us....Look it up for yourself!

... but for heaven sakes, don't read the BIBLE or you might read:

• [John 6:43-44] 43 Jesus answered and said to them, "Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

• [John 10:26-29 NASB] 26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand.

• [Romans 8:28-30 NASB] 28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to [His] purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

• [Romans 9:10-13 NASB] 10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived [twins] by one man, our father Isaac; 11 for though [the twins] were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to [His] choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER." 13 Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."

• [Romans 9:15-18 NASB] 15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." 16 So then it [does] not [depend] on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH." 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

• [Romans 9:21-24 NASB] 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And [He did so] to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 [even] us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

• [Ephesians 2:1-9 NASB] 1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Common theme ... just maybe, it isn't all about US, ... maybe, it is all about GOD!
Not what we do, but what God has done.

That is the heart of Calvinism (and we Calvinists believe it because Scripture teaches it).
... Feel free to think that God is sitting in heaven wringing his hands and hoping someone will accept the offer that His son DIED to provide if that is the image of God that you prefer to the God of scripture that chooses whom He WILL save from among a rebellious humanity that is universally born ashamed of their nakedness and hiding from God, like Adam and Eve in the Garden.

• [John 3:16-21 NASB] 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

(We do a disservice stopping at John 3:16 because there is more to that message. Men hide and God saves.)

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

... but for heaven sakes, don't read the BIBLE or you might read:

• [John 6:43-44] 43 Jesus answered and said to them, "Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

• [John 10:26-29 NASB] 26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand.

• [Romans 8:28-30 NASB] 28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to [His] purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

• [Romans 9:10-13 NASB] 10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived [twins] by one man, our father Isaac; 11 for though [the twins] were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to [His] choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER." 13 Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."

• [Romans 9:15-18 NASB] 15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." 16 So then it [does] not [depend] on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH." 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

• [Romans 9:21-24 NASB] 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And [He did so] to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 [even] us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

• [Ephesians 2:1-9 NASB] 1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Common theme ... just maybe, it isn't all about US, ... maybe, it is all about GOD!
Not what we do, but what God has done.

That is the heart of Calvinism (and we Calvinists believe it because Scripture teaches it).
... Feel free to think that God is sitting in heaven wringing his hands and hoping someone will accept the offer that His son DIED to provide if that is the image of God that you prefer to the God of scripture that chooses whom He WILL save from among a rebellious humanity that is universally born ashamed of their nakedness and hiding from God, like Adam and Eve in the Garden.

• [John 3:16-21 NASB] 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

(We do a disservice stopping at John 3:16 because there is more to that message. Men hide and God saves.)

See, this is the biggest beef I have with you Calvinists. You have your pet passages ("proof texts") which you use to support your theology but you ignore the ones which don't agree with it. For example, like this one, which suggests that some indeed cannot believe--not because God has pre-determined it--but because of the state of their proud hearts: Jesus denounces the religious authorities: "You pore over the Scriptures because you presume that by them you possess eternal life. These are the very words that testify about Me, yet you refuse to come to Me to have life.

I do not accept glory from men, but I know you, that you do not have the love of God within you. I have come in My Father’s name, and you have not received Me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will receive him. How can you believe if you accept glory from one another, yet do not seek the glory that comes from the only God?

Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, in whom you have put your hope. IF you had believed Moses, you would believe Me, because he wrote about Me. But since you do not believe what he wrote, how will you believe what I say?” (John 5:39-47).

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

That would be classified as a mental illness.

We have grown comfortable with the "mental health/illness" paradigm--but that doesn't make it true. Psychiatrist, Karl Menninger of the famed Menninger Clinic, once entitled a book with the plaintive question: Whatever Became of Sin? He objected to more and more conditions being blamed on "illness" rather than just plain evil. Real evil has been done to those who suffered childhood sexual abuse and those scorched by the evil need to get help from the Lord Jesus who is the Great Physician--the ONLY one who can take away the heart wounds they have suffered. Otherwise, they will continue to act out of the pain, rage and false shame over what was done to them--or worse, seek to victimize children in the way that they were victimized.